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sourclams wrote:

darkkt wrote:

The CSM codex has great options for complementary long and short range anti tank options - and this is exactly how I like to use them.

I don't want to derail the OP's thread so I won't go into this enormously, but the reason the CSM codex is full of fail and illustrates the OP's points very well is because you are basically limited to 3 FOC slots for long range AT. If you can't take it on a Heavy, you're either shoe-horning units that aren't meant to perform the ranged AT role (10 CSM with a lascannon) or are forgoing entirely.

What points lvl are you playing where 9 oblits are not enough ranged anti-tank for you?

I play both Dark Angles and Space Puppies
With my DA I Give my Sergeants Melta-Bombs and Plasma Pistols
My standard Tactical Squads have Plasma Gun, Heavy Bolter
My Devastators are 2 Squads with 4 Plasma Cannons and one squad with 4 Heavy Bolters
My Raven Wings I load up with Melta Guns for my AT work

Armor 14 can be a problem, but AV 11 stuff just gets chewed up.

With my SW it is looking like I will be going with flamers for wile until I get some more Melta-Guns
I don’t have many Multi-Meltas right now do to selling them off in the late 90’s, but for a wile I had a 4 Multi-Melta Long Fang Pack, the just ruled the 24” in front of them [back with over-watch] that killed almost any thing that walked in to my field of fire.

Yes I would say that I love Meltas, but the OP hit it on the button.

They don't need to take 2 HQs, no more than daemon armies need to take more than 1 herald. They CAN, but they don't have to.

Meltas aren't the best anti-tank, but they're the most reliable. They're the weapons with the highest odds to penetrate [when close] and highest odds to do damage once you do so. "Best", well, there really is no best. Again meltas are the most reliable, but you have to get really close to use them.

I will say, however, that an army that properly supports itself either won't need meltas or can support them. They'll have enough firepower on hand to take out the infantry that comes out of the transport you kill so that you're not counter-attacked, or they'll pop tanks at range such that your close-range fighters can kill what comes out.

In my Emperor's Children force, I use undivided CSM with meltaguns to pop tanks, then use lash to pull them over to rhinos containing noisemarines, who let loose with doomsirens. I kill any survivors with the rhino's own weapons, and if things go well I can kill 2 or 3 squads a turn.

Oversell on any one thing is generally a bad idea. However the Vul'kan based lists make meltas superior. Even so, it is the mix of meltas and flamers that make that list work. (Pop the can, flame broil the contents.)
I do agree that for killing transports at range is ideal. The issue is the 5th ed charts. If you want to kill a vehicle a melta weapon is the way to go but an autocannon, loota, or missile launcher will do it much better and on turn 1 rather than waiting for turn 2 or 3.

The issue with melta lists is that you better be ready to play aggressive and you better have mobility. 12" range is just not that powerful if your opponent has stand-off capabilities and speed. (e.g. Vendettas, Speeders, Eldar.) In those kind of situations, your melta-armed troops are likely to be doing nothing or forced to close through 1 or 2 turns of enemy long-ranged fire and usually de-transported and sometimes being cut down having accomplished nothing more then entertain the enemy for a couple turns.

Thinking about it, I'd honestly say Vindicators and their SM equivalents (apart from Railguns) are some of the best anti-tank in the game. Being as they're ordanance you get 2d6 and pick the highest. Thats not 2d6 to pen, so you can even do it to monoliths, correct?

Zid wrote:Thinking about it, I'd honestly say Vindicators and their SM equivalents (apart from Railguns) are some of the best anti-tank in the game. Being as they're ordanance you get 2d6 and pick the highest. Thats not 2d6 to pen, so you can even do it to monoliths, correct?

Correct.

Vindies are potentially really nice against tanks but they suffer from two problems

1. difficulty of hitting, it doesn't take much for the small hole to scatter off most of the tanks in 40K, anything using BS is much more reliable in a marine force.

2. Waste of a unit, vindies own whatever you point them at and are usually much more valuable when used against troops.

Using vindictors as your primary means of anti-tank is foolish. You need to use other guns to open up the cans and then use the vindie on whatever pops out. That said if you are faced with a mech list they can be used as anti-tank in a pinch.

That flexibility is one of the many reasons vindies are awesome.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

Zid wrote:Thinking about it, I'd honestly say Vindicators and their SM equivalents (apart from Railguns) are some of the best anti-tank in the game. Being as they're ordanance you get 2d6 and pick the highest. Thats not 2d6 to pen, so you can even do it to monoliths, correct?

Correct.

Vindies are potentially really nice against tanks but they suffer from two problems

1. difficulty of hitting, it doesn't take much for the small hole to scatter off most of the tanks in 40K, anything using BS is much more reliable in a marine force.

2. Waste of a unit, vindies own whatever you point them at and are usually much more valuable when used against troops.

Using vindictors as your primary means of anti-tank is foolish. You need to use other guns to open up the cans and then use the vindie on whatever pops out. That said if you are faced with a mech list they can be used as anti-tank in a pinch.

That flexibility is one of the many reasons vindies are awesome.

Oh I agree, however they are invaluable when facing off with necrons and land raider based armys I've noticed. Where my lascannons need 6's to pens, my vindi just has to hit and I almost always roll a 5 or 6 on one of the dice!

Whats nice is that if its not doing its job as a canopener, you can always wipe out entire squads of... well, whatever, every turn. Or, as I do it, run 2 vindis and a defiler. Blow up the large vehicles with vindis, take out whats inside with the defiler

this thread is closed for the moent as it has been rpeoted and I am reviewing.

The thread derailed but landed back on track. I'll leave it as a a reminder-lets be polite people.

I am so glad to read this. I was just about to invest in a melta heavy list. I want to have flexibility. I have used dreads and sternguard in drop pods effectively. Where do you think meltas/long range fit into that tactic?

Also, I am finding that my IG opponents tend to drop Commandos on me, or drive Leman Russ Sqdns in from the flank on turn 2 or 3. I was thinking that spreading meltas around to all my units would be the counter to that. He doesn't use transports. He has 2 Valkyrie, and 50 model conscript squad that soaks up fire, while he positions his Commandos and Armor sqdrn.

One other way to look at Metlas is as a LAW
There are a great close quaters Anti-Armor Weapon, but if you can have a AT-84 [ML or PC] all the better.

Meltas are great against AV14 armor within the Melta range. The 2d6 penetration gives the melta weapon an average roll of 15 on the penetration roll, in addition to providing +1 on the damage roll.

When damaging lower armor values, this becomes less of an advantage, as the difficulty in penetrating lower armor values scales quickly. While the chances of a ML penetrating the front of a predator are 1/6, they shoot to 3/6% when hitting the front of a rhino -- tripling in effectiveness over those 2 AV.

This means that to destroy lighter vehicles -- razorbacks, rhinos, speeders, defilers, etc -- meltas are akin to using a bazooka to kill a rat. As mentioned before, the drawback with a melta is that one must get within 6" to gain the full advantage of them (or 12" with a multi-melta) possibly requiring a sacrificial unit for every attempt at vehicle destruction.
Against these targets, longer range weapons such as MC and LC are better options, as they can neutralize the threat at longer range and less risk.

The logical question is "How many AV 14 vehicles do I see in a game?" That is dependent on your FLGS and/or the tournaments you play in. In the gaming groups I play in, that number is less than 1, and noone at my FLGS plays LR spam.

Therefore a smart general will consider the answer to the last question and use that to base the melta ratio they should use in their army.

labmouse42 wrote:Meltas are great against AV14 armor within the Melta range. The 2d6 penetration gives the melta weapon an average roll of 15 on the penetration roll, in addition to providing +1 on the damage roll.

When damaging lower armor values, this becomes less of an advantage, as the difficulty in penetrating lower armor values scales quickly. While the chances of a ML penetrating the front of a predator are 1/6, they shoot to 3/6% when hitting the front of a rhino -- tripling in effectiveness over those 2 AV.

This means that to destroy lighter vehicles -- razorbacks, rhinos, speeders, defilers, etc -- meltas are akin to using a bazooka to kill a rat. As mentioned before, the drawback with a melta is that one must get within 6" to gain the full advantage of them (or 12" with a multi-melta) possibly requiring a sacrificial unit for every attempt at vehicle destruction.
Against these targets, longer range weapons such as MC and LC are better options, as they can neutralize the threat at longer range and less risk.

The logical question is "How many AV 14 vehicles do I see in a game?" That is dependent on your FLGS and/or the tournaments you play in. In the gaming groups I play in, that number is less than 1, and noone at my FLGS plays LR spam.

Therefore a smart general will consider the answer to the last question and use that to base the melta ratio they should use in their army.

Meltas are also good at downing MC's and killing off things like terminators, HQ's, etc.

I too have been dropping meltas from my planned SM list. It's going to be quite shooty, with Drop-podding Sternguard w/ combi-plasmas, Dreads with assault cannons/DCCW, and footslogging Tactical squads. I might also run a couple of Las-Predators, because I actually don't see much LR spam at all. After all, isn't that a few hundred dollars worth of them? A few hundred dollars that could be spent on things that can kill AV14?

Besides, three S9 shots at long range isn't bad. Plasma guns are also good for killing Terminators and MCs without getting in too close.

Cheese Elemental wrote:I too have been dropping meltas from my planned SM list. It's going to be quite shooty, with Drop-podding Sternguard w/ combi-plasmas, Dreads with assault cannons/DCCW, and footslogging Tactical squads. I might also run a couple of Las-Predators, because I actually don't see much LR spam at all. After all, isn't that a few hundred dollars worth of them? A few hundred dollars that could be spent on things that can kill AV14?

Besides, three S9 shots at long range isn't bad. Plasma guns are also good for killing Terminators and MCs without getting in too close.

I think the thread has drifted into a potentially dark place.

What has been shown is that taking all the melta in the world isn't going to win you the game.

But does anybody really think they're going to win in a take-all-comers setting without a substantial amount of melta or its equivalent?

The math has conclusively shown that against AV 13/14 lascannons really don't cut it. Railguns barely cut it against AV14, and only because they can ignore cover and/or crank BS up to 5. You really need the double dice and/or AP1 to get enough rolls on the vehicle damage table to put a vehicle down because glancing to death is utterly inefficient.

You can't have an effective offensive range of 6" and expect to run the gauntlet of missile launchers and autocannons. But you also can't have only las, missile launchers, plasma, and 'cannons and expect to be worth a damn against the Russes/Hammerheads pounding you across the table or the Land Raider bearing down on your fixed guns.

I'd also like to point out that a podding Sternguard squad is one of very few units that is truly ideal for melta use, especially when taken in a full squad.

ManwithIronHands wrote:personaly I like the vanquisher cannon, no downsides to it, it has the range of a battle cannon and the hitting power of a multi melta without the melta rule at a relatively low points cost. It should be on more vehicles than just the leaman russ. a rhino based tank hunter varian with one would be awesome.

It also makes more sense, anti-tank tanks are usually faster then their counterparts, so they can circle around MBT and hit their rear armour

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of "Rifleman Dreds", I kind preferred it when they were called "Mortis Pattern Dreadnoughts". Maybe if we're good the next Dark Angels codex will have full options for the Mortis Pattern, and not just the Autocannons available to regular Space Marines.

Also Cyclone Launchers for Dreadnoughts...

/jack

I fully support this. I am not crazy about fluff but I am wild about the game. Dreads need advantages. If they are not going to be so hard to kill(AV 12 is a joke, and Ven status is super expensive) they should have awesome guns. People should fear Dreads! Give them great guns if they aren't going to be Hard to Kill!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melta guns are close to the tits, but you also need something else to go with that. I will now scrap my all melta gun army of 67.4 Fire Dragons.

sourclams wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:I too have been dropping meltas from my planned SM list. It's going to be quite shooty, with Drop-podding Sternguard w/ combi-plasmas, Dreads with assault cannons/DCCW, and footslogging Tactical squads. I might also run a couple of Las-Predators, because I actually don't see much LR spam at all. After all, isn't that a few hundred dollars worth of them? A few hundred dollars that could be spent on things that can kill AV14?

Besides, three S9 shots at long range isn't bad. Plasma guns are also good for killing Terminators and MCs without getting in too close.

I think the thread has drifted into a potentially dark place.

What has been shown is that taking all the melta in the world isn't going to win you the game.

But does anybody really think they're going to win in a take-all-comers setting without a substantial amount of melta or its equivalent?

The math has conclusively shown that against AV 13/14 lascannons really don't cut it. Railguns barely cut it against AV14, and only because they can ignore cover and/or crank BS up to 5. You really need the double dice and/or AP1 to get enough rolls on the vehicle damage table to put a vehicle down because glancing to death is utterly inefficient.

You can't have an effective offensive range of 6" and expect to run the gauntlet of missile launchers and autocannons. But you also can't have only las, missile launchers, plasma, and 'cannons and expect to be worth a damn against the Russes/Hammerheads pounding you across the table or the Land Raider bearing down on your fixed guns.

Did I say I had no meltas at all?

You specified dropping meltas from your SM list and then you went on to list a bunch of units without melta and an unconventional foot army with a final caveat on how 3 S9 shots isn't bad.

If you intended for there to be melta in that list, it looks to be on 3 Tactical squads slowly walking towards enemy armor.

sourclams wrote:

I think the thread has drifted into a potentially dark place.

What has been shown is that taking all the melta in the world isn't going to win you the game.

But does anybody really think they're going to win in a take-all-comers setting without a substantial amount of melta or its equivalent?

The math has conclusively shown that against AV 13/14 lascannons really don't cut it. Railguns barely cut it against AV14, and only because they can ignore cover and/or crank BS up to 5. You really need the double dice and/or AP1 to get enough rolls on the vehicle damage table to put a vehicle down because glancing to death is utterly inefficient.

You can't have an effective offensive range of 6" and expect to run the gauntlet of missile launchers and autocannons. But you also can't have only las, missile launchers, plasma, and 'cannons and expect to be worth a damn against the Russes/Hammerheads pounding you across the table or the Land Raider bearing down on your fixed guns.

In which case then, for IG, would it be a good idea to take Vets with Meltas in a Valkyrie/Vendetta and 3 Medusa Artillery Tanks?

Hear me out here (i'm new to IG)...

Use the Medusa to obliterate heavy tanks and heavy infantry, Melta Vets to take out heavy tanks, the Vendetta to take out transports and the Valkyries to mop up infantry?

radiohazard wrote:
Use the Medusa to obliterate heavy tanks and heavy infantry, Melta Vets to take out heavy tanks, the Vendetta to take out transports and the Valkyries to mop up infantry?

Are you referring to bastion-breachers? be careful, many people don't realize that when you buy bastion-breachers you give up being able to shoot a large blast. pg 53 "a Medusa armed with bastion-breacher shells always fires using the following profile." (emphasis mine) I prefer either a Demolisher (12" and 15 pts for mobility and AV14 is a good trade for me), or a Manticore (D3 S10 ordnance barrage is hell for Land Raiders, let alone all the AV14 that's not actually AV14 sides like russes and battle wagons. The average on 2d6 take the highest is just under 4.5. You're also more likely to get a 6 than 1-3 put together.

I have to say, my favorite thing about the new IG codex is the plethora of long range tank-busting. Everyone can pack in meltas, but we get so many options in the 36"+ ranges; Vendettas, Hydras, Manticores, Vanquishers (if you're into that sort of thing; not for me), even the humble heavy weapons team (with a healthy dose of bring it down at least).

Back OT: I agree that pure melta is a poor choice; once you're in melta range, most transports have done their job and are superfluous anyway.

The Defenestrator wrote:

radiohazard wrote:
Use the Medusa to obliterate heavy tanks and heavy infantry, Melta Vets to take out heavy tanks, the Vendetta to take out transports and the Valkyries to mop up infantry?

Are you referring to bastion-breachers? be careful, many people don't realize that when you buy bastion-breachers you give up being able to shoot a large blast. pg 53 "a Medusa armed with bastion-breacher shells always fires using the following profile." (emphasis mine) I prefer either a Demolisher (12" and 15 pts for mobility and AV14 is a good trade for me), or a Manticore (D3 S10 ordnance barrage is hell for Land Raiders, let alone all the AV14 that's not actually AV14 sides like russes and battle wagons. The average on 2d6 take the highest is just under 4.5. You're also more likely to get a 6 than 1-3 put together.

Well thats scuppered my plans on using Medusas

The Defenestrator wrote:Back OT: I agree that pure melta is a poor choice; once you're in melta range, most transports have done their job and are superfluous anyway.

Thats a theory I've had for a very long time. My way of thinking is to use long range AT fire, Vendetta and Hydra in case of IG and have one, possibly two units of melta vets for AV14, with all other vets with PG in a gunship of some kind.

I run a mixed marine army. 3 of the 4 tac squads have a lascannon, a melta gun, and a combi melta on the sergeant. This lets me deal with transports at range, and heavier armor up close. Sure the multi melta is 10 points cheaper, im also not stopping anyone from decent range.

radiohazard wrote:

Well thats scuppered my plans on using Medusas

It's still a great AT platform and a great gun in general. Remember that you still get 2d6 for penetration even if you scatter off the hull, so against a rhino you'd be S5+2d6/AP1; I've busted a lot of rhinos open with scattered medusa hits.

My single best shot was a Medusa hit that busted a rhino open, killed 3 plague Marines, and put a wound on a Daemon Prince.

Sorry if this has already beed stated:
But even if it deepstrikes right next to you, your all melta army is toast against a Monolith that ignores the 'melta' rule.
Also for example IG (the first list of the thread that have heavy flamers and meltas only [from Shep]) cannot do much against an eldar Avatar, since it is immune to both those weapons...

Shep wrote:This is totally accurate. You didn't even need to add your caveat at the bottom about some units being ok with the short range.

To some players, this has been obvious from the beginning, to some others they had to learn the hard way. Or they'll soon learn the hard way when they get to a populated tourney.

I've got a great example of an army that uses the 'melta is the only reliable tank kill' concept, and fails hard as a result. I am ashamed to admit I am the author of this list

IG 1750

CCS 4x melta chimera HF

vets 3x melta chimera HF
vets 3x melta chimera HF
vets 3x melta chimera HF

2x devildog HF
2x devildog HF
2x devildog HF

medusa BB
medusa BB
medusa BB

My avatar laughs at your army.

The Bloody Handed God wrote:

Shep wrote:This is totally accurate. You didn't even need to add your caveat at the bottom about some units being ok with the short range.

To some players, this has been obvious from the beginning, to some others they had to learn the hard way. Or they'll soon learn the hard way when they get to a populated tourney.

I've got a great example of an army that uses the 'melta is the only reliable tank kill' concept, and fails hard as a result. I am ashamed to admit I am the author of this list

IG 1750

CCS 4x melta chimera HF

vets 3x melta chimera HF
vets 3x melta chimera HF
vets 3x melta chimera HF

2x devildog HF
2x devildog HF
2x devildog HF

medusa BB
medusa BB
medusa BB

My avatar laughs at your army.

Don't get too cocky. I played that army for about 8 days before it was totally scrapped. I didn't face any avatars in that 8 day span either.

Please bring avatars when versing my current IG build though. I like facing models that can only move 6+D6" a turn and fire a 12" range gun.

Zid wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:Meltas are great against AV14 armor within the Melta range. The 2d6 penetration gives the melta weapon an average roll of 15 on the penetration roll, in addition to providing +1 on the damage roll.

When damaging lower armor values, this becomes less of an advantage, as the difficulty in penetrating lower armor values scales quickly. While the chances of a ML penetrating the front of a predator are 1/6, they shoot to 3/6% when hitting the front of a rhino -- tripling in effectiveness over those 2 AV.

This means that to destroy lighter vehicles -- razorbacks, rhinos, speeders, defilers, etc -- meltas are akin to using a bazooka to kill a rat. As mentioned before, the drawback with a melta is that one must get within 6" to gain the full advantage of them (or 12" with a multi-melta) possibly requiring a sacrificial unit for every attempt at vehicle destruction.
Against these targets, longer range weapons such as MC and LC are better options, as they can neutralize the threat at longer range and less risk.

The logical question is "How many AV 14 vehicles do I see in a game?" That is dependent on your FLGS and/or the tournaments you play in. In the gaming groups I play in, that number is less than 1, and noone at my FLGS plays LR spam.

Therefore a smart general will consider the answer to the last question and use that to base the melta ratio they should use in their army.

Meltas are also good at downing MC's and killing off things like terminators, HQ's, etc.

I like plasma guns and cannons much better for hitting MCs and terminators. You get a higher rate of fire or a blast marker.

augustus5 wrote:I like plasma guns and cannons much better for hitting MCs and terminators. You get a higher rate of fire or a blast marker.

Agreed. This was discussed ad nauseam in a topic recently called something like "Melta or Plasma".

Shep wrote:

Don't get too cocky. I played that army for about 8 days before it was totally scrapped. I didn't face any avatars in that 8 day span either.

Please bring avatars when versing my current IG build though. I like facing models that can only move 6+D6" a turn and fire a 12" range gun.

You do realize I was talking about all the flamer and melta? Wich do diddly squat against the avatar.