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I wonder if all the problems asscociated with GW products doesn't stem from people taking the game too seriously?

By my statement, I don't mean Table Top Wargaming, I mean GW products specifically. Year after year, they make the same mistakes, they put out substandard miniatures (compared to upcoming companies) and their fluff has more contradictions than the Holy Bible.

Its a flawed product set that enjoys too much fame (and by default fortune)....

Why don't people see it for what it is, and leave it at that. I see threads asking whether this faction is evil compared to that faction, and all other kind of fan related intricate debate....and I wonder whether GW staff read this stuff and laugh themselves to sleep?

Lets compare WH40K to Star Wars, or even Dune.....I'm not saying that these other universes are perfect, but I see a lot more coherence in their fluff and related products.....why is it possible for these Giants that have been around for decades to manage this, and a company like GW to fail so miserably at it?

I don't rate GW products in the same vein as those statues of modern Sci Fi greatness mind you, I rate it alongside GI-Joe, or Transformers....or maybe even Thundercats its comic, its throw away entertainment....its not mean't to be considered as an article for high brow debate, or the searching of a deeper meaning.....

Unfortunately, this is also refelctedin its rules writing, and miniatures.....

Delephont wrote:I wonder if all the problems asscociated with GW products doesn't stem from people taking the game too seriously?

By my statement, I don't mean Table Top Wargaming, I mean GW products specifically. Year after year, they make the same mistakes, they put out substandard miniatures (compared to upcoming companies) and their fluff has more contradictions than the Holy Bible.

Don't most people take their hobbies too seriously? "Play like you got a pair", historicals fretting over the color of the lapel or the button holes, internet and tournament drama.

Sure, people could take it for what it is, entertainment, but that'd lose half the fun of it. I'm a huge star wars nerd, and can quote episodes 4-6 verbatim. I love to chat about the movies, the characters, etc. I don't know much about the 'fluff' because I never bothered to read any of the fan fiction that populates the book shelves.

With GW, I read the BL novels, enjoy the games, and most of all enjoy the modeling and painting aspects of it, and the narrative games. Do I talk about which Primarch can beat which? No. Do I enjoy talking fluff and background with others who have read the novels? Yes.

I think what we see here, and on other sites, is a vocal minority who lambast GW, expect great things, and have plenty of time to post, but not enough to paint their minis or actually play games. Its all about the drama, which I don't need much of in my "free-time".

I do agree with Killkrazy that for a multinational corporation, their "handle" on their fluff, rules, game-play, playtesting, and editing is tenuous at best.

What I'd love to see if how much, if any, profit GW makes from their codexes and printed materials. My feeling is not very much, which would continue to explain their stance that they're a "miniatures company" and that is what drives it all, sales of minis. And if that means mangling the fluff (yet again), creating an uber-codex to drive sales, and generally targeting a younger audience than me (by about 25 years), then that's what they'll continue to do.

What I also think it means is that the older, veteran gamers, who have all the history, know the fluff, and have seen the careening path GW has taken, are finally becoming more discerning. I know for me, 40k is losing lustre, I'm leaning toward WHFB (which has its own power issues), and historicals. Not to mention playing way more Specialist games, which have tighter rules and are much more fun

My favorite excuse (and the one that ALWAYS freaking comes up when talking to anyone attached to GW) is that "writing balanced rules is hard." I'm always conflicted with the many responses I could give:

"You know those guys on the shows that fish for Alaskan crab and even sometimes die? Amazingly, I can go to any Walmart and somehow find crab meat."

"When was the last time you paid for 50+ dollars for guidelines?"

Or the straight-forward:

"Then what the hell is their job?"

Hi again.
Aparently its the game developers job at GW towers to help sell the latest releases.

Other companies GROW thier buisness by writeing great game rules and supporting thier gamers.

GW write thier rules to appeal to thier target demoghraphic.11 to 16 year old boys.
They only have to be good enough to make them drop some cash.

Unfortunatley this short sighted profiteering just results in short bouts of spending before leaving GW behind.
Since 2000 GWs turn over has DROPPED by 30% appx in real terms.

GWs customer base is shrinking , or reducing its spending.GW PLC Putting up prices to recoup the short fall , is just acting as a barrier to new customer entering the hobby.And therfore can not be sustained indefinatley.

If the 'wallet rape of unsuspecting customers' is the best buisness practice.Why is it ONLY GW PLC that adoptd it?

In my experiance better games have greater longevity and generate far more interest LONG TERM.(Like CBT.)
As most game companies rely on word of mouth, surley engaging with your customers to give them what they deserve,or at least be honest about what you are selling, must be best practice?

GW appear to not realy bother doing either.

Definition of;-
The 'GW Hobby'
Selling overpriced gak to people that dont know any better.

Table top minature gaming hobby.
The creative actions and social interaction undertaken by like minded people.

STOP CONFUSING THEM !

Happy gaming .
Lanrak,

Writing balanced rules is hard, especially when you stack the deck against yourself by not using any kind of organised methodology or tools to help do it.

If GW don't make money from their books they are doing it wrong.

Most of the material is recycled from one edition to the next. The creative work isn't expensive. We've already seen they don't bother to organise and test the new stuff.

I used to lay out a magazine the size of a codex by myself every month, using Quark Xpress. Repro and printing is cheap in China and Dubai when you aren't on a tight deadline.

So, we should all mail GW and ask why exactly we're paying for these rules if they aren't supposed to be worth using anyway.

They are worth using, specifically they're a starting point, not an end in themselves. I think that's been explained already. Why is that so hard to understand?

HEres my take on it. At my table, any rules problem we come to, we discuss it like intelligent adults, and come to a common ground on the problem. We havnt had any fights or outbreaks ever on rules problems. I honestly cant see how this mind set becomes a problem to strait thinking people. The only time I see it become a problem is when its the WIN AT ALL COSTS types in tournaments.
Im not really wanting to come off as a defender fan boy for GW, but they have a complex rule system for a pretty large army base. Of course its not going to be possible for them to cover EVERYTHING that can happen during this type of game. Yes they SHOULD do pre tests on the rules and codices before a launch. That just makes sence. Yes they SHOULD try to write a codex with rules that doesnt BREAK units. But in all honesty, there isnt THAT MUCH that breaks the normal game play.
As for the people that complain of the "they dont give a gak about us after we make a purchase" Well DUH! They are a publicly traded company. Its all about the share holders now. We are a distant second if we are REALLY lucky. (prolly more like 4th or 5th.)
And most of you that complain about this so much, STILL buy the books, buy the minis, play the game. So whats the problem then?

Solorg wrote:I agree that this is horse manure. I buy the rules so that I can play the same game as others, not so that I can make my own up anytime.

If I wanted to make my own, I'd do so and save a lot of money in the process!

GW rules seem to have plenty of holes in them, typos, and bad organization. When I need to prove a point to an opponent, this gets frustrating! And in the heat of battle, "whatever both players agree on" just doesn't cut it.

It's GW's job to make nice, tight rules. This means Codexes that don't break the game when they're released. It means balance between the various armies. And yes, it means lots of playtesting and EDITING before the release of new rules.

It is shocking how often this isn't done.

If players want to do their own thing, they don't need encouragement. They just do it. This silly nonsense doesn't belong in a rulebook. Rulebooks are for: you guessed it, THE RULES.

40K is a game - and how is a $50 game any good with such ambiguity and cop-outs in its pages?

Apocolypse is the worst. All rules, FOCs, and sense of balance go out the window. And what is the excuse? "Don't take it too seriously." After 9 hours for 2 turns of Apoc, you bet I want it to be balanced! Else I may as well have just laid out my models and said, "OOooh, look at what I bought and painted - let's flip to see who wins and then get lunch."

OK, I may be exaggerating a little, but this really is a pet peeve of mine. After 5 editions of the game, I'd really love it if GW would start doing more basic editing in their books for organization, clarity, and balance. But when they pretend it doesn't even matter, as the above posters indicated, then there seems less and less hope of that.

It DOESN'T matter, to them. God, I wish it did. I wish the games they printed were tight and waterproof. However, the sad reality is that ofter you have bought your models they don't care about you. They are off to the next conquest; so other wallet. I. Wish. That. Weren't. So. However, begging for tight rules and balanced structure does not appear to be within their interests because they don't see it as being a selling point for more models. That's the reality. I just wish it wasn't. I have never used the Adepticon FAQ, but it gets more and more enticing everytime I play.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

IntoTheRain wrote: No other system I have played has had anywhere near these kinds of problems in writing Rules.

No other system has this kind variety over this kind of installed base of players...

Truly a case of quanitity having a quality all its own, eh John?

Noisy_Marine wrote:... Oh, and yes, GW rules writing is bad. They don't care, they just want to sell the minis.

Just keep that in mind as the truth it is. Mins minis minis

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:My favorite excuse (and the one that ALWAYS freaking comes up when talking to anyone attached to GW) is that "writing balanced rules is hard." I'm always conflicted with the many responses I could give:

"You know those guys on the shows that fish for Alaskan crab and even sometimes die? Amazingly, I can go to any Walmart and somehow find crab meat."

"When was the last time you paid for 50+ dollars for guidelines?"

Or the straight-forward:

"Then what the hell is their job?"

I agree with your sentiment. However, their job is to write rules that sell models; bothering to write balanced rulesets is just not what they are paid for. God how I wish it wasn't so.

Lanrak wrote:Hi again.
Aparently its the game developers job at GW towers to help sell the latest releases.

Other companies GROW thier buisness by writeng great games and supporting thier gamers.

GW write thier rules to appeal to thier target demoghraphic.11 to 16 year old boys.
They only have to be good enough to make them drop some cash.

Unfortunatley this short sighted profiteering just results in short bouts of spending before leaving GW behind.
Since 2000 GWs turn over has DROPPED by 30% appx in real terms.

GWs customer base is shrinking , or reducing its spending.GW PLC Putting up prices to recoup the short fall , is just acting as a barrier to new customer entering the hobby.And therfore can not be sustained indefinatley.

If the 'wallet rape of unsuspecting customers' is the best buisness practice.Why is it ONLY GW PLC that adoptd it?

In my experiance better games have greater longevity and generate far more interest LONG TERM.(Like CBT.)
As most game companies rely on word of mouth, surley engaging with your customers to give them what they deserve,or at least be honest about what you are selling, must be best practice?

GW appear to not realy bother doing either.

Definition of;-
The 'GW Hobby'
Selling overpriced gak to people that dont know any better.

Table top minature gaming hobby.
The creative actions and social interaction undertaken by like minded people.

STOP CONFUSING THEM !

Happy gaming .
Lanrak,

Why does it have to be so? </mournful howl>

Cruentus wrote:

Delephont wrote:I wonder if all the problems asscociated with GW products doesn't stem from people taking the game too seriously?

By my statement, I don't mean Table Top Wargaming, I mean GW products specifically. Year after year, they make the same mistakes, they put out substandard miniatures (compared to upcoming companies) and their fluff has more contradictions than the Holy Bible.

Don't most people take their hobbies too seriously? "Play like you got a pair", historicals fretting over the color of the lapel or the button holes, internet and tournament drama.

Sure, people could take it for what it is, entertainment, but that'd lose half the fun of it. I'm a huge star wars nerd, and can quote episodes 4-6 verbatim. I love to chat about the movies, the characters, etc. I don't know much about the 'fluff' because I never bothered to read any of the fan fiction that populates the book shelves.

With GW, I read the BL novels, enjoy the games, and most of all enjoy the modeling and painting aspects of it, and the narrative games. Do I talk about which Primarch can beat which? No. Do I enjoy talking fluff and background with others who have read the novels? Yes.

I think what we see here, and on other sites, is a vocal minority who lambast GW, expect great things, and have plenty of time to post, but not enough to paint their minis or actually play games. Its all about the drama, which I don't need much of in my "free-time".

I'm not sure how to respond to this, as it seems you are contradicting yourself a little.

First of all, when I made the statement about taking the game seriously, I was specifically talking about GW WH40K fluff setting.....I agree with you that people will and do take their hobbies seriously, but, you still have to accept the limitations of that hobby no matter how serious you take it!

Its impossible to talk about the average height of a Space Marine, if the creators of said Space Marine don't even know! ......and the list goes on!

You are not a Star Wars nerd, if you were you'd realise the books that make up what is commonly known as the expanded universe is far from "Fan Fiction", its scrutinised and controlled by the Lucas corperation, and they are very tight on what actually makes it to the shelves....unlike the stuff from BL, which you do bother to read

Too seriously or not, the quality of GW rules does not match the price tag. End of story. There is no other excuse. Crappy rules should cost less. If it's "too hard" they shouldn't print more rules, because balancing them is part of their job. The only reason I touch this game is because other people play it, and it's convenient to find a game. That's it.

Delephont wrote:I mean GW products ... their fluff has more contradictions than the Holy Bible... Lets compare WH40K to Star Wars, or even Dune

I agree with what you say about people taking it too seriously, but one of the best things about GW is the fluff in my opinion. Star Wars and Dune aren't fair comparisons because you are movie cross medium. And don't even get my started on what the feth is the gak with star wars. Dune on the other hand is incredible, I've held Dune and 40K as my two favorite scifi settings for a long time.


If the rules are so bad, I don't understand why people wouldn't just shift to another gaming system. Anybody who has been part of an RPG group knows that. Why do people feel so burned? I have to play 5 PS3 games before I find one that's good.

I don't see how people can argue that RAI should replace RAW. In fact, I can't think of a single game system (other than GW...in the past 3 months) that has suggested this. RAI is a slippery slope, because how one person thinks the rules were intended isn't always how other people feel they were intended. RAW (hypothetically) bypasses this by keeping to a set of easily understood rules in an otherwise murky situation, and its the reason that basically every game system advocates using them even if the rules don't always make perfect sense in the given situation.

Mainly it's because the rules are where you start, and how you play is where you end up. By knowing the rules well, you know where, when, and why you might deviate from them during play.

I really don't know what all you people are going on about.

seriously.

yes, the rules have holes in them. Yes, those holes can break the game. But just follow the INAT faq, and you'll be fine. Its the only comprehensive document with even a hint of legitimacy (it was used at a GW sponsored event), and it covers most major holes in the game. Any others will be addressed by it in time.

Horst wrote:I really don't know what all you people are going on about.

seriously.

yes, the rules have holes in them. Yes, those holes can break the game. But just follow the INAT faq, and you'll be fine. Its the only comprehensive document with even a hint of legitimacy (it was used at a GW sponsored event), and it covers most major holes in the game. Any others will be addressed by it in time.

How fast do they release the faqs ? in time? can be anytime between now and infinity.
( i know i sound harsh , but the players would like something reliable ) which is the whole issue here.

they update it fairly often, luna... a new update should be comming out soon that covers the guard as well.

Cryonicleech wrote:I disagree that Gav cannot write a codex. The Dark Elf Book is just fantastic, and is on par with many other Armybooks (The newer ones, of course)

Yeah, I was hoping no one would bring that up. But then again, how could the new DE book *not* be better than the last one? Hm? Hmmmm?!

JohnHwangDD wrote:A couple points:
1. Gav doesn't speak for GW as far as I know.
2. Gav is talking about army theme in the initial quote
3. GW doesn't need to straitjacket things, or deal with non-common-sense issues that don't come up in normal play.

The primary "rules" issues occur in tournament situations in which players are just playing to WIN, rather than just PLAYING (to win). That isn't GW's fault.

Really? I've seen more damage done to the local (non-tournament) gaming community because of rules disagreements in "casual" play than I have rules disagreements in tournament play. In tournaments, gamers often seem like they are more professional, either because of sportsmanship guidelines and scoring, or just because it's a more structured environment. In my experience, the guys who are really going to try to twist the rules to benefit themselves will do so in casual play, and especially against younger and less experienced gamers (who generally don't play in tournaments).

Within the last several months, our gaming community has had two major rules issues that have affected the local gaming atmosphere to a large degree. One guy had an opinion about being able to fire passengers' weapons out of fast vehicles. Even though in the rules an embarked unit and its transport are separate units, it doesn't actually state so very clearly. He was adamant that he was right, and despite most of the community presenting good, well-thought-out arguments to him, he did not play the game at the local store for a few months. Another pair of people have agreed that they simply won't play each other in the current campaign because they have a disagreement about how the KFF works. In my eyes there are about 3 valid interpretations for how the KFF interacts with vehicles and vehicle squadrons. If these rules were written more clearly, then the local gaming community would be more friendly and thriving.

Edit: fixed typo.

GW you fickle liars...

when asked about ruless:

"We are a hobby company!"

when asked about prices aka Gray Knights

" We are a game company! the price have to adjust via points! "

LunaHound wrote:
GW you fickle liars...

when asked about ruless:

"We are a hobby company!"

when asked about prices aka Gray Knights

" We are a game company! the price have to adjust via points! "

Indeed, and yet people keep buying stuff from them new, some even insist on paying retail, boggles my fething mind.

... when it comes to GW IG... behold yellow and blue! By their powers combined, I am Captain Greenstuff!!!

Sorry, just had to say it. eBay, bit kingdom, and five bucks worth of greenstuff and I've already saved $400 on my IG army... LOL

GW, please contract Paizo about writing the next edition of 40k? They actually seem to have some grasp of what they're doing?

I just finished reading this, then decided to see if they had a Eldar codex. Anyone seen their Google result?

Games Workshop make the best model soldiers in the world.

Moz wrote:I think you're ok with GW as long as you don't take the game more seriously than they do.

Of course this means don't travel to big events, don't invest time and effort attempting to become a better player, don't analyze all the choices available and then take the clearly best models.
Just crack open a book, buy what you think looks cool, paint it up nice, and then push it around on a table. Prepare for frustration if you want more than this.

Back to Warmachine you!

whitedragon wrote:

Moz wrote:I think you're ok with GW as long as you don't take the game more seriously than they do.

Of course this means don't travel to big events, don't invest time and effort attempting to become a better player, don't analyze all the choices available and then take the clearly best models.
Just crack open a book, buy what you think looks cool, paint it up nice, and then push it around on a table. Prepare for frustration if you want more than this.

Back to Warmachine you!

Huh, why? I think that's what most skilled table-top generals do, and yet GW clearly does not design for that style of game play. I thought that was a good summary of the disconnect between GW and "competitive" gamers.

whitedragon wrote:

Moz wrote:I think you're ok with GW as long as you don't take the game more seriously than they do.

Of course this means don't travel to big events, don't invest time and effort attempting to become a better player, don't analyze all the choices available and then take the clearly best models.
Just crack open a book, buy what you think looks cool, paint it up nice, and then push it around on a table. Prepare for frustration if you want more than this.

Back to Warmachine you!

Now, be nice. The poor warmachine players are feeling a bit abandoned in the MK1 vs. MK2 schism, and some of them may be making their way back to GW rather than fight a civil war over which version of the rules they should like. The poor prodigals need our love and understanding.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

IntoTheRain wrote: No other system I have played has had anywhere near these kinds of problems in writing Rules.

No other system has this kind variety over this kind of installed base of players...

This is a cop out and you know it. The core rules have enough problems in them without considering the codices. You're a smart guy. Even you must realize that to fix balance and rules issues, the worldview of the game must be examined, and all codices must be reassessed and rebalanced -simultaneously-. GW has no interest in doing this... so they don't write proper rules because the can't, but because they have no interest in doing so.

mikhaila wrote: The poor warmachine players are feeling a bit abandoned in the MK1 vs. MK2 schism, and some of them may be making their way back to GW rather than fight a civil war over which version of the rules they should like. The poor prodigals need our love and understanding.

I'm sure we'll give them all the love and understanding they showed to us, two or thee times over.

Which means rubbing their noses in it every chance we get.

It's not just that GW has problems with writing rules over multiple editions of 40k (For example: What does a Tau Target Lock do in 5th?) kinds of problems. They don't do a good job with models and rules (Are Infantry without eyes able to draw LOS? Can I disembark from a Valkyrie, other to the top of a hill or a building?). And, they don't do a good job of writing clear rules (Can I have two Rune Priests in a same wolf army with the same wargear, one psychic power the same and one different? How about two powers the same but different wargear?).

GW doesn't take rules writting seriously and they encourage us to do the same. If we all played in a basement with a half-dozen regular buddies, it'd be fine, you'd sort through the issues (even with some heated debates).

And the problem isn't just with the 'power gaming WAAC' gamer. It's anyone that plays a stranger, whether it's a competitive tournament or not (Hey, you can't use Target Locks! Hey, you have to use the Grav Chutes on the valk to disembark! Hey, your Rune Priests need to have different wargear and can't have one power the same!).

If the issue was a handful of uncommon interactions, it'd be one thing (and this is what a lot of PP's errata/FAQ dealt with). It's not. It's gaming-system wide. GW should be embarrased about it. And until they lose costumers due to it, they won't change.

And GW is capable of writing good rules. See LotR and WotR, Space Hulk, and other games. They're lazy and they've gotten away with it for too long.

BaronIveagh wrote:GW, please contract Paizo about writing the next edition of 40k? They actually seem to have some grasp of what they're doing?

Rehash old rules, fail to address the actual problems and continue to promote a game full of inherent unbalances? Thanks, but no thanks. In fact I think we have that already.

I certainly agree with the premise of getting help writing a much better set of rules though.