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Chrispy wrote:

Ketara wrote:So if he does their advertising for them, he should be able to sell units? My thought would be that if he's making money selling Sabol and GW, that's where he should stick. Why should he go to such extremes to endorse one specific brand that so far, has yet to sell particularly well?

Why does any gaming store try to sell new products? Because if they stuck with the same stuff day in and day out, they wouldn't be drawing customers into new purchases. Granted, Sabol and GW cases probably do sell well, but that's only because that's what the customer is familiar with. It's up to the small business owner to get his/her customers to sell new products. They're in sales.

Yes they are in sales... and if costumers want X and X is selling super well guess what a sale person will do in order to have more clients satisfied.

mikhaila said " In the time since I get in the BF cases, I've sold one, vs. two dozen GW and 17 various Sabol transports, and probably a hundred sabol trays."
Really only a mad man would not support the best sellers more.
Besides, i take my hat to mikhaila for having so many choices in stock for same end products... other stores would simply not care and carry stuff that doesnt sell.

kinghammer wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Decent review.

From a retailer point of veiw, my criteria has to also include my ability to sell the product.

Sabol and GW are on top as far as figure cases go. Both readily available, (althoguh Sabol can go out of stock at times, never GW.)
Sabol is a bit more versitile, as I can get 1" to 4" trays, and easily stock them as single items for sale. GW trays are ordered as a set of 3 plus topper from mailorder, and I can't get the tank foam from them, or order the tank cases anymore. We sell about an equal number of the two brands.

I'm currently talking with OH about getting there stuff into my stores. We'll see how that progresses, and hopefully I'll have theirs in stock soon.

BF sells empty bags and some pick and pluck to stores currently, but the bags are not selling, as for the money, customers want the custom foam. In the time since I get in the BF cases, I've sold one, vs. two dozen GW and 17 various Sabol transports, and probably a hundred sabol trays. They indicated they might change that in January. (Which is unfortunately a horrible time to bring in new product.)

So from a retailer point of veiw: GW and Sabol at the top, OH coming online, BF pretty much doesn't can't, as I count get what customers want to buy.

Empire Games in AZ has no problem selling the BF bags. It comes down to you as a retailer and what you use as a carrying case. If your customers see you using Sabol then they will buy Sabol. If they see you use BF they are going to buy BF. It also opens you up for custom tray orders and making more money.

GW for the most part has cases all the time
Sabol has cases/foam for the most part( except for a 3 or 4 month period, this year when they where waiting for their stock from China)
OH does not produce cases but has foam but do not know anything about his stocking policies
BF for the most part always has cases, foam, and allows stores to do custom cuts

I be willing to bet if you owned one and carried paints or your models you would be able to move the proper units.

Cheers

Empire Games sells them because they can GET them. I can't sell what I can't get in stock. Custom tray orders don't make me any money, and can't make me any money, because I'm not allowed to buy them. I've tried, I've been told no, a couple of times.

It comes down to you as a retailer and what you use as a carrying case. And if I choose to continue to not use any cases, and keep my armies in lighted glass showcases, on display in my store? Somehow emptying out my display cases so I can pack my stuff in BF bags and put them in the back room doesn't strike me as a good idea. I have the BF bags with pick and pluck foam in the middle of a large display of other bags. I try like hell to sell them, since they are just sitting there. My customers do like them. Several have ordered custom load outs and bags directly from BF, since I can't get them in. They pack them into the store, and are quite happy with them. They all have their armies in custom foam. Don't see how me storing an army in pick and pluck is going to sell more bags.

BF for the most part always has cases, foam, and allows stores to do custom cuts Heh, No, he doesn't allow stores to do custom cuts . He turned down an order from me. I wanted to order 12-24 of over a dozen custom trays, pay in advance, pay for shipping, and wait 30-60 days for the order. He turned it down.

I've got a customer in my store, right now, and we just talked about BF bags. He said if I had the foam for his tanks, he'd buy a bagload and a bag, right today. He doesn't want pick and pluck.

I wanted to deal with BF, but I can't sell bags with just 1" trays, or pick and pluck. (I've tried, hard, I still have hundreds of dollars in stuff sitting here, and would really love to sell them.) I have customers that want to buy them, if I had the custom foam, especially for tanks. I might even consider one for myself, although I only take an army anywhere about once a year. But like my customers, I'd want foam that fits tanks.

Since I can't get the BF stuff I and my customers want, I'll be popping in an order for another pallet load of Sabol bags next week, and putting 60 GW cases on my Christmas stock up. And we'll be talking with OH and seeing what they can supply that we can sell.

Sorry, didn't mean to turn this into a rant. I agree with some of what you say, especially about the custom foam making money. That's the frustrating part. I can't get the custom foam. Maybe if my store was in in Arizona.

So IOW, BF custom trays are like GW FW, or GW "exclusives"!

Can't say that I blame them, as it drives the bottom line.

Sorry to come into this late, and by now most of the facts have already been presented and discussed. But I received one of OH's demo trays and I have to say I'm very pleased with it, especially considering the price difference. BF makes an excellent quality product, I've seen it from some other local gamers, at the end of the day though to me it's just foam. I use it to keep things safe when I move them and I'm going to pick the most economical choice that does that job. I also enjoy the extra foam left in the cells by OH, it's useful for my box of random foam pieces that I carry my vehicles in. If BF comes with that too I apologize, but the local guys I spoke to said that theirs didn't.

I'll see if it holds up down the line, but from the looks of it I'm not expecting any difficulties. It's currently sitting with some other foam and it's not being crushed excessively or doing anything else any different from the rest of the foam that I have.

So there you go, that's my opinion for what it's worth. Also, nice to see a much more civil attitude has propagated itself. Brings a better light to everyone.

Just to chime in, Im one of the customers as Mihalia's store who had asked about getting BF from him. I currently own a 1520 with an IG custom foam set(Love it!). Before my recent trip overseas killed my disposable income for the quarter I was considering a biker marine army and had mentioned battle foam so I could support my local store and my favorite case maker at the same time. I was looking to make a huge purchase with my next bonus check and want to incorporate all of it in one big shot as Mikhalia is great about working out the occasional discount for a big lump sum purchase and as a former retail store owner myself I always want to support my FLGS with my gaming dollar.

I know he would love to sell it to me, its a nice high price point for an entire army and the 1520 to hold it. He had expressed a lot of frustration so far with his attempts to stock the product. Its certainly not from lack of trying on his part. BF is also a very new product and Im sure Romeo has had lots of issues he needs to work out to scale up production for massive retail shipments.

I hope Romeo can get the retail support straigtened out so that Showcase can resume its position of monopolizing All of my hobby disposable income and allow me to avoid shipping costs at the same time.

(Assuming my new fiance allows me to still have a hobby income)

bigtmac68 wrote:(Assuming my new fiance allows me to still have a hobby income)

Don't count on it at least until she gets done throwing out all your old furniture/stuff and buying new stuff to replace it.

Congrats BigMac!

I have an old Chessex case. It's OK. Gets the job done.
I have a Sabol Motorpool case. It's OK. Gets the job done.
I have a GW case. It's OK. Gets the job done.
Bought a Battlefoam 1520- SM Loadout... It gets the job done, I have room to expand without having to carry another case (direct attachment of other BF cases), houses all my codexes/rulebook/templates/dice/beverages/tape measures/etc.

GW doesn't do that.
Sabol tries...

BF also puts custom text on my trays. I view this as a near necessity, mine has an 'inside joke' on each tray... something innocuous.
Last year a local gamer had a complete Chaos SM army stolen out of his truck. Factory personalization eases my mind slightly.

I have not yet tried OH. I just havn't run into it until this thread. So I'm not downing them.

I just think a lot of the focus has been purely on the foam itself, not on the complete nature of a transportation system.

My point .02

Look forward to reading more reviews. Across the board.

Cruentus wrote:I also received the OH foam based on the offer of a free tray to try out. Similarly, I am unaffiliated with OH, BF, Sabol, or GW.

I also received the same tray as Porkuslime, and couldn't really do a better job with a review.

I only have Sabol, GW, and OH trays, so can only compare those.

The OH tray is much easier to "prep" for use, as shown by the review. I too noticed the thin walls of the cells. I also preferred the OH and GW ones to the "pick and pluck", as I feel there is always wasted space in that system. It is nice knowing exactly how many I can fit in a tray.

I was concerned about the ability of minis to fit in the cells in the 40 slot tray, but when I put my Bret MAA in there, they fit (spears notwithstanding).

What I want to try is a "crush" test. That is, to put each of the trays beneath a pile of "full" trays, to see how much the walls deform.

I'll report back when I do that, hopefully tonight.

Personally, I'd be shopping primarily on price, as I don't travel with my minis that much, but would use the trays on the shelf stacked (without bags). As long as they're protected there, I'm a happy camper.

*edited for clarity

I too received a free tray from OH, and am not affiliated with Sabol, BF, or OH. Overall, I am very happy with it. Although the walls are thinner than the Sabol trays I have now, the foam looks great compared to my current foam trays. They fit a ton more too. Most of my decision on whether to replace will come down to 1) price, and 2) how much room I can save in my cases if I were to purchase new trays. For some armies, that may be more than others.

Thanks OH - Mez

Ketara wrote:I would be interested to hear where KR multicase comes in in this. As far as I know, they make their own trays to fit their card cases, and at £20 for 4 and a case, I've yet to find cheaper.

Not that awesome. They use a custom footprint for the trays, so you're stuck buying from them. Also, they do not make any real customizeable trays, their P&P trays still require one to use scissors to cut the cells into the shape. The foam is also soft enough that cutting a space for, say, a tank, severely compromises the integrity of the tray. It's also aesthetically unpleasing. The soft cases are ugly, and the hard cases are extremely fragile and susceptible to damage.

There are no non-flawed miniatures transport solutions, in my opinion.

OK.. a bit of followup here..

I contacted BattleFoam (Romeo, by email) and told them about the glue blob on the tray from GenCon, and apologized for not bringing it to their attention back then. He asked for my addy, and told me he would send out a replacement.

Got the replacement today.. and BattleFoam sent me *3* trays instead of the one. They sent a replacement 40 man tray, AND one each of the other 2 styles they sell for Sabol cases...

That is ASTOUNDING customer service! Damn! (by far the best experience I have had with a army foam company to date!)

-Porkuslime

porkuslime wrote:IRREGARDLESS

Isn't that a double negative? "Regardless of regard"...

porkuslime wrote:Got the replacement today.. and BattleFoam sent me *3* trays instead of the one. They sent a replacement 40 man tray, AND one each of the other 2 styles they sell for Sabol cases...

That is ASTOUNDING customer service!

You posted a review of his stuff on one of the busiest 40k/minis forums on the internet, he replied a couple of times in the thread, you contacted him about the glue, he replaced the foam sheet and gave you extra.

Astounding customer service or clever marketing?
Anybody should have known you would post the results of your defect/return issue. Only a fool would have denied you a replacement at this point. Just by this thread being here, you were basically guaranteed a replacement. Had he just sent you one (and sent it quickly and trouble-free), you would've been here with a positive review. Instead, he sent you THREE trays and you come here raving.

What I wonder is, if somebody reports a defective tray eight months from now, will they get three foam replacements too?




At any rate, this is a well-written review. Very helpful in the decision making process for foam tray buyers. Your droop test was an excellent idea.
Personally, that really has no bearing on the choice for me. I use both hands when moving trays in and out of my Army Transport and always stack them on one another when out of the case. Also, I NEVER have trays hanging over edges of tables, etc. My two metrics for the decisions are price and amount of minis held, in that order.

With Apoc, I have found myself holding in excess of 150 Guardians and 50 Dire Avengers (not to mention all the other infantry). Those Sabol trays just don't cut it anymore.


This review has shown me that I need to rethink my foam tray configuration now. I will be looking into the BF or OH with the pre-cut for my infantry models and the Sabol P-n-P foam for my vehicles/heavy weapons/large models/etc.
The deciding factor between the two comes down to price per tray.



Thanks for the review!


Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:

porkuslime wrote:IRREGARDLESS

Isn't that a double negative? "Regardless of regard"...

porkuslime wrote:Got the replacement today.. and BattleFoam sent me *3* trays instead of the one. They sent a replacement 40 man tray, AND one each of the other 2 styles they sell for Sabol cases...

That is ASTOUNDING customer service!

You posted a review of his stuff on one of the busiest 40k/minis forums on the internet, he replied a couple of times in the thread, you contacted him about the glue, he replaced the foam sheet and gave you extra.

Astounding customer service or clever marketing?
Anybody should have known you would post the results of your defect/return issue. Only a fool would have denied you a replacement at this point. Just by this thread being here, you were basically guaranteed a replacement. Had he just sent you one (and sent it quickly and trouble-free), you would've been here with a positive review. Instead, he sent you THREE trays and you come here raving.

What I wonder is, if somebody reports a defective tray eight months from now, will they get three foam replacements too?
***snip***
Ghidorah

well, at least porkuslime is just a minimally active member of the online 40k community so there's no chance he'll get extra special treatment. it's not like he's an active member of dakka or helps run the #1 40k trading site on the internet or something... i agree the customer service from battlefoam pretty much gets universal praise but you definitely got the royal treatment there that most other people wouldn't due to this thread. romeo would go out of business if he mailed 3 trays to everyone who had a glue gob on one of theirs.

OK.. I fixed the IRREGARDLESS grammer.. thanks to those who pointed it out.. .

I don't *think* I got special treatment because of "net presence" or this thread.. .. I am very curious if anyone else got mistakes replaced above and beyond what they were expecting.

As Ghidorah mentioned, it might be that this thread did generate the bonus, but if so, I can only speculate. It is not as if Romeo sent me a PACK system or anything like that.. (although.. hint.. )

Good for you then, besides you did a good review, for free, about all these companies so you kind of deserved extra goodies

Ghidorah - You know, the funny thing is we do this all the time for people. We have always gone out of the way for everyone of our customers. We always try to do right by everyone because we are all gamers. I play and paint daily and I know most of our customers do also. Because of that I treat everyone the way I would like to be treated.

The next thing is our guarantee. All of our products are guaranteed against manufacturing defects. The reason for the extra trays was because of the long delay on replacement. Had porkuslime contacted us the day after getting the trays we would of just replaced the defective ones.

Since he dealt with them for months we only felt it was right do take care of him. Just as we would you or any other customer.

I dare any other company that sells foam to give you a life time manufacturing warranty on their trays. Better yet, I dare Sabol or GW to give you anything to cover there bags or case past 30 days.

We cover your bags for life. So lets lay off porkuslime considering he's only trying to report his story.

Like I said, the funny thing is that we do this for our customers all the time.

Romeo
Battle Foam

Lay off him? I didn't notice anyone on him. All I saw was a healthy dose of Dakka cynicism and paranoia, with a little bit of scepticism and pessism mixed in for good measure, with regards to marketing.

Ghidorah wrote:

porkuslime wrote:IRREGARDLESS

Isn't that a double negative? "Regardless of regard"...



Ghidorah

Grammar Nazi FAIL. Some of us still like to use it irregardless of peoples' feelings toward it (see what I did there!)

Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Pronunciation: \ˌir-i-ˈgärd-ləs\
Function: adverb
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
Date: circa 1912
nonstandard : regardless

usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

As far as I know, Sabol does the same thing. I have heard of them giving away many freebies too. It is just the way to do business. They may not offer a lifetime guarantee, but you have to be very careful what you guarantee and for how long. And you have to realize that foam does have some wear and tear from customers. So where do you draw the line ?. Like if I buy a ton of foam from BF and then change my ARMY, can I return the foam? What exactly is meant by a lifetime guarantee? Heck, I am on board with BF if I can return stuff for any reason and anytime....

Kinggames - Our lifetime guarantee is against manufactured defects. Like glue blobs, bad stiching on bags, and things that don't happen from normal wear and tear. Oviously if you treat your foam and bag like crap and it falls apart then that's not covered. If your bag happens to split in 2 because we stiched it wrong then your are. As for foam, again its all about common sense. If you get a tray that has glue in it or it does not stick to the bottom right or its ripped when it arrives we replace it.

If you stop liking your army and don't like 40k anymore, no you can not send it back. Its like any other big companies warranty. Its the same thing Samsanite, Jansport and all the other high end bag makers do.


Romeo
Battle Foam

Sgt Diablo wrote:If you get a tray that has glue in it or it does not stick to the bottom right or its ripped when it arrives we replace it.

Romeo
Battle Foam

I got a tray like this in my bag load out. I found that applying a small amount of heat (small amount... don't want to melt the foam) will soften the glue just enough to allow you to reattach the bottom.

On a personal note, Battle Foam's customer service is excellent and this combined with a great product will keep me a loyal customer.

For the record... Why anyone who values their models would buy a GW case is beyond me.

@mikhaila - As for you not being able to push Battle Foam. I've been to Showcase (Media, PA) and the one thing I noticed was that everyone their had Sabol cases. Every last one of them was toting a Sabol case in one fashion or another. It would seem to me that you have a large base of customers who are loyal to Sabol and who will tell others to purchase Sabol. I also noticed that the majority of the players there at the time were younger. Kids always want what their friends have. If Timmy's friend Jimmy gets a trampoline for his birthday then Timmy will want one too.

oni wrote:

Sgt Diablo wrote: @mikhaila - As for you not being able to push Battle Foam. I've been to Showcase (Media, PA) and the one thing I noticed was that everyone their had Sabol cases. Every last one of them was toting a Sabol case in one fashion or another. It would seem to me that you have a large base of customers who are loyal to Sabol and who will tell others to purchase Sabol. I also noticed that the majority of the players there at the time were younger. Kids always want what their friends have. If Timmy's friend Jimmy gets a trampoline for his birthday then Timmy will want one too.

Younger crowd on Saturdays. They tend to use Sabol a lot, although the best selling case is still GW. Much older crowd in the evening, about 5 nights a week. Probably have half a dozen veterans that got the BF custom loadouts, (direct, not from me.) Most vets use Sabol. There are many different types of players, that want different types of storage bags. By far the biggest problem we have in pushing BF, is just not having BF to push.)

oni wrote: I also noticed that the majority of the players there at the time were younger. Kids always want what their friends have. If Timmy's friend Jimmy gets a trampoline for his birthday then Timmy will want one too.

I think I need to disagree with this one part.
Timmy won't "want a trampoline."
Timmy will "want a tramploine that is bigger and better than Jimmy's, but will settle for one AS GOOD as Jimmy's, if he needs to."

Kids don't want what other kids have. They want BETTER than what other kids have.

If the BF case is pushed as a better product (especially since it's more expensive, which is a sign that it MUST be better [to kids, anyway]), the kids will want it instead of Sabol.

"Yeah, but look! My case is bigger... and has pre-cut customized foam with my name on the trays!"

Eric

At the request of Dakka Mods.. I have tried to make an article on this.. commentary welcome.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Sabol-sized_Foam_Tray_Comparison

porkuslime wrote:At the request of Dakka Mods.. I have tried to make an article on this.. commentary welcome.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Sabol-sized_Foam_Tray_Comparison

Kiss *ss.

Eric

sorry.. meant HELPFUL commentary welcome..

THAT sort of commentary I get elsewhere on the net..

::eye roll::

Some people are SO picky.

ok.. thread necro here (but since this is my own thread, probably OK).

It has been about 9 months now that I have been using the trays I reviewed.

Time for a re-visit I feel.

Since the review, I have kept 36-40 Sisters of Battle models in both the Outrider tray and the Battle Foam tray, and kept Seraphim and a Canoness squad in the Sabol pluck tray. The army lives in a Motor Pool, and I have played and carted it around many times over the winter. I also have not touched it in 2 months.

So, how did the trays hold up?

Outrider - Side walls fine, tray compartments did not deform, but the bottom foam that lines the tray HAS separated from the part what holds the figures. The foam also is starting to "pill" a bit. A quick shave with a hobby knife and some attention with a hot-glue gun, and the tray is back in action.

Sabol Pluck - Bottom still attached, but the side walls have re-shaped themselves to fit the seraphim better. When the models are removed, the foam does NOT go back to straight lines. No pilling, and the foam looks to be slightly compressed. This tray is under the other 2 trays, btw. No repairs needed, tray still looks and functions well.

Battlefoam - Best looking of the bunch. The walls are not deformed like sabol, nor compressed. The bottom of the tray is securely attached, and there is no foam condition degradation.

So, as a re-visit, the BF tray has held up quite a bit better than the other 2.. totally rocks.

Also, since I wrote the review, BF trays have dropped in price to be comparable with Outrider and only slightly more pricy than the Sabol.

-Porkuslime

porkuslime - credit to you for returning to this topic and updating. The true test of most things is how they hold up over time.

BF certainly appear to be the top end product that they marketed themselves as.

I'm going by mikhaila's store for a tournament next week, and am hoping to check out the different bags that he stocks. I am leaning towards BF, but I need to see if the tray thicknesses will work for my models. This will be a later in the summer purchase (Priority #1- Fantasy rulebook! Priority #2- A case to replace the tray I'm using currently) but I'll certainly post a review once I've done it.

A friend has the Pack 432, and I was quite impressed with it. My only concern was turning the trays up on their sides, since I have many metal models. So if I end up going for that style of bag, that will also be something I'll review.

Cheers for this, porkuslime. It's especially helpful to see what happened after most of a year had passed.