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Scottywan82 wrote:

oni wrote:

reds8n wrote:

Panic wrote:yeah,
Would you agree that you can move from X to 1.

--- [1]
[X][_][_]
[_][_][_]
[_][_][_]

In this case yes as the square next to X is free/exists.

I don't think you can because that would then allow you to cut corners going around corridors. Making it possible to move from X to Y bellow in the cross section.

-------- [_]
-------- [_]
[_][Y][_][_][_]
-------- [X]
-------- [_]

You can.

Yep, there is a pic of a genestealer doing it in the rule book.

Now here's a question that I think is valid.

Are you allowed to purposefully spend more command points than what you drew if you believe that you can secure the win? Example: Mission One - I draw 2 command points (My sergeant is dead so I can't turn it in for a second grab) The heavy flamer uses all 4 of his AP's to move into place, all I need to do is open the door and flame the room to secure the win. Can I expending more command points than I drew to make this happen?

I know the rules say if the SM player spends more CP's than what was drawn they lose, but the command point chip doesn't get flipped up until victory conditions have been checked in the Mission Status phase.

It seems to me that it's possible as a kind of a last chance, all or nothing push for the win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Really? I'll have to check when I get home, I must have missed that.

oni wrote:Now here's a question that I think is valid.

Are you allowed to purposefully spend more command points than what you drew if you believe that you can secure the win? Example: Mission One - I draw 2 command points (My sergeant is dead so I can't turn it in for a second grab) The heavy flamer uses all 4 of his AP's to move into place, all I need to do is open the door and flame the room to secure the win. Can I expending more command points than I drew to make this happen?

I know the rules say if the SM player spends more CP's than what was drawn they lose, but the command point chip doesn't get flipped up until victory conditions have been checked in the Mission Status phase.

It seems to me that it's possible as a kind of a last chance, all or nothing push for the win.

I don't think so. I know what you're getting at and but the rules state that you reveal the command point counter after checking for victory conditions. . .it doesn't say that this step is ignored if the victory conditions have been met. At least that's my take on it.


As for firing around a corner while facing that corner, I do think it is allowed.

The rules state that a terminator is allowed to see around a corner if he's standing next to it (pg 12) and the marine is in Panic's example and the Genestealer in that same example *is* in his 'line of sight' as laid out (also on pg 12 of the rules).

So to me I think you are allowed to fire at the Stealer in this case.

Moving thread to YMDC.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's nice that they have put up an FAQ so quickly.

Most of the questions were pretty lame though. Maybe they rushed the job since the game has only been out about three weeks.

Sorry, but that is no excuse whatsoever. I "rushed", and got a first draft of a totally comprehensive FAQ out before the SW codex was even released to the unwashed nerdy masses . And I am just 1 guy, doing it for free, in his spare time. These guys are getting paid to do it, and more than likely I will have the FAQ pretty much finalised by the 3rd, so I still outdo them.

Cheese Elemental wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Time to unleash the H.B.M.C. I think.

Are you trying to get us all killed?

Thoroughly banned or locked will be enough.

(sorry cut & paste has shunted the corridor to the left, but you know what I mean) Outstanding logic by GW again I see

[1]
[X][_][_]
[_][_][_]
[_][_][_]

So common sense and practicality go straight out the window then? If GW say that a diagonal movement is allowed from X to 1, but shooting isn't or that both are allowed... why have rooms & corridors (which will always have corners)? By this logic the SM could walk down the outside of the corridor and come at the Genie from behind!!???!!!

Wolfstan wrote:Outstanding logic by GW again I see
[1] [X][_][_] [_][_][_] [_][_][_]
So common sense and practicality go straight out the window then? If GW say that a diagonal movement is allowed from X to 1, but shooting isn't or that both are allowed... why have rooms & corridors (which will always have corners)? By this logic the SM could walk down the outside of the corridor and come at the Genie from behind!!???!!!

Fix'd

Why have rooms & corridors? So Litko Aerosystems doesn't go out of business

Wait, so question. I'm now totally confused on Command points. I draw them at the beginning of the turn. I place them (face up? face down?) on the command point track. The genestealer player keeps track of them as I use them.

Do I not show the genestealer player how many I have when I draw them? Do I not have to put them down in the right place? Is that what they mean by "if you use more than you have you lose"?

Gwar! wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It's nice that they have put up an FAQ so quickly.

Most of the questions were pretty lame though. Maybe they rushed the job since the game has only been out about three weeks.

Sorry, but that is no excuse whatsoever. I "rushed", and got a first draft of a totally comprehensive FAQ out before the SW codex was even released to the unwashed nerdy masses . And I am just 1 guy, doing it for free, in his spare time. These guys are getting paid to do it, and more than likely I will have the FAQ pretty much finalised by the 3rd, so I still outdo them.

I'm not giving it as an excuse. IMO they should have waited a month for people to play the game and send in a list of queries, then drawn up the issues and covered them properly.

It seems as if GW wanted to show they really care about product support, but they rushed the FAQ out too fast for it to be of maximum usefulness. FAQs are frequently asked questions, not the first 6 queries that got sent in the week after launch.

The queries people are listing about visibility and LOF around corners are not covered, for example.

Scottywan82 wrote:Wait, so question. I'm now totally confused on Command points. I draw them at the beginning of the turn. I place them (face up? face down?) on the command point track. The genestealer player keeps track of them as I use them.

Do I not show the genestealer player how many I have when I draw them? Do I not have to put them down in the right place? Is that what they mean by "if you use more than you have you lose"?

You draw a counter and change it if you wish (a captain must still be alive)
you place it face down on the "Crux" position.
The Stealer player moves it to 0 and your turn starts.

My question is can command points be used in the stealer turn for any action? Move? Non-overwatch fire? Close door?

It does say CP's are used in either turn.....so...... If a stealer opens a door in my front 3 squares can i use a CP to then close it? Lure stealers up a corridor towards a non-overwatched termie and open fire or go on overwatch? Stealer player moves a blip up behind a termie, Termie player uses 2 CP's to turn 180, forcing an involuntary conversion and stopping the stealer player in his tracks?

How sneeky or cheesey can you get?

Kilkrazy wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It's nice that they have put up an FAQ so quickly.

Most of the questions were pretty lame though. Maybe they rushed the job since the game has only been out about three weeks.

Sorry, but that is no excuse whatsoever. I "rushed", and got a first draft of a totally comprehensive FAQ out before the SW codex was even released to the unwashed nerdy masses . And I am just 1 guy, doing it for free, in his spare time. These guys are getting paid to do it, and more than likely I will have the FAQ pretty much finalised by the 3rd, so I still outdo them.

I'm not giving it as an excuse. IMO they should have waited a month for people to play the game and send in a list of queries, then drawn up the issues and covered them properly.

It seems as if GW wanted to show they really care about product support, but they rushed the FAQ out too fast for it to be of maximum usefulness. FAQs are frequently asked questions, not the first 6 queries that got sent in the week after launch.

The queries people are listing about visibility and LOF around corners are not covered, for example.

That is the case for ALL GW FAQs. 45% of the FAQs are questions no-one asked or are easily answered if you read the rules, 45% just flat out contradict R.a.W, 9% make no sense whatsoever and perhaps 1% is relevant.

Scottywan82 wrote:Wait, so question. I'm now totally confused on Command points. I draw them at the beginning of the turn. I place them (face up? face down?) on the command point track. The genestealer player keeps track of them as I use them.

Do I not show the genestealer player how many I have when I draw them? Do I not have to put them down in the right place? Is that what they mean by "if you use more than you have you lose"?

First you draw a marker, look at it. place it face down at the "0" (genestealer now starts the timer)

Now every time you use a command point the genestealer player slides the counter along the numbers.

After both players have completed their turns, its the missions status phase then the SM player reveal the counter to show the genestealer player he has not used more than is on the counter.

Panic wrote:yeah,

reds8n wrote:

Panic wrote:yeah,
Would you agree that you can move from X to 1.

--- [1]
[X][_][_]
[_][_][_]
[_][_][_]

In this case yes as the square next to X is free/exists.

So would agree that the marine X can shoot square [1]

JJ Hulk FAQ wrote:Q. Can the LOS for a Space Marine in a room be
explained in a bit more detail?
A. A model in a room can see all of the squares in the
room that are in his line of sight, as long as a line drawn
from the model to the target does not a) pass through a
square that blocks the line of sight, or b) pass between a
wall and a square that blocks the line of sight, or c) pass
between two squares both of which block the line of
sight. An example of b) can be found on page 11 of the
rules – the Genestealer cannot see either of the squares
marked ‘X’. Remember that a model can only see squares
in a corridor that are directly in front of it. An example of
this can be found on page 13– the two Genestealers
cannot see the Space Marine marked with an ‘X’, though
they can see the square in front of him as it is part of the
room section.

I don't have my rule book right now, does the FAQ answer my question?
Panic...

I believe this passage answers the question. From the paragraph quoted from the FAQ...

"Remember that a model can only see squares in a corridor that are directly in front of it"

I take "squares in a corridor" to mean any squares that are in a corridor tile. And I take "directly in front of it" to mean on the line extending past the corridor.

Ok, another question while we are at it: The heavy flamer targets a "section" and hits everything in it. Two questions:

1: I assume this means terminators as well. Is that correct?

2: What exactly constitutes a section? A room tile makes sense, but do the little 1-2 square corridor tiles count the same as a 5 square corridor tile? Is a "section" the entire hallway in a straight line?

Wehrkind wrote:Ok, another question while we are at it: The heavy flamer targets a "section" and hits everything in it. Two questions:

1: I assume this means terminators as well. Is that correct?

Yes.

Wehrkind wrote:2: What exactly constitutes a section? A room tile makes sense, but do the little 1-2 square corridor tiles count the same as a 5 square corridor tile? Is a "section" the entire hallway in a straight line?

When you take the board apart... each separate piece, regardless of size, is a section. So, a 3x3 room, a 2x1 corridor, a "T" junction, etc. would all count the same for that purpose.


Eric

After consulting the rulebook and the mission book (mission 1) I am 100% convinced that I'm right. You CAN spend more command points than you have (to maximum of 6) as a last ditch attempt to win.

Rulebook - [Keeping Track of Command Points] The SM player is not allowed to use more CP's than the no. shown on the counter, and if he has used more CP's than he had available then he immediately loses the game. (This implies that I can use more, how else would I go over if I'm allowed to check the counter whenever I want?) [Mission Status Phase] The players should check the victory conditions of the mission to see if either of them has won. The game ends as noted in the mission rules, usually when a specific event has happened or objective has been achieved. (This clearly states that victory conditions are check before moving on.) After victory conditions have been checked, the SM player reveals the command point counter to show that he has not expended more than he had for the turn... (Again, this implies that I can use more than what I drew.)

Mission Book - [Mission 1 - Victory] When this happens the game ends and the SM's win immediately. (This clearly states that that there is no moving on, stop, the game is done.)

oni wrote:After consulting the rulebook and the mission book (mission 1) I am 100% convinced that I'm right. You CAN spend more command points than you have (to maximum of 6) as a last ditch attempt to win.

Rulebook - [Keeping Track of Command Points] The SM player is not allowed to use more CP's than the no. shown on the counter, and if he has used more CP's than he had available then he immediately loses the game. (This implies that I can use more, how else would I go over if I'm allowed to check the counter whenever I want?) [Mission Status Phase] The players should check the victory conditions of the mission to see if either of them has won. The game ends as noted in the mission rules, usually when a specific event has happened or objective has been achieved. (This clearly states that victory conditions are check before moving on.) After victory conditions have been checked, the SM player reveals the command point counter to show that he has not expended more than he had for the turn... (Again, this implies that I can use more than what I drew.)

Mission Book - [Mission 1 - Victory] When this happens the game ends and the SM's win immediately. (This clearly states that that there is no moving on, stop, the game is done.)

You are mistaken, you loose immediately if you use to many. So you wont even get to the mission status phase.

This is of course not possible since you are not allowed to use more then avalible

See, if you could use as many as you wanted to win, then Marines could win, for example, the first mission on turn one by using a whole hell of a lot of command points. In your example, just because the little track ends at 6 doesn't mean the Marine player would have to stop there if they could go all out to win on that turn. So what makes turn 1 different from turn 8?

I would guess it is there for things that automatically use points without an option not to. Is there anything like that?

Bla_Ze wrote:

oni wrote:After consulting the rulebook and the mission book (mission 1) I am 100% convinced that I'm right. You CAN spend more command points than you have (to maximum of 6) as a last ditch attempt to win.

Rulebook - [Keeping Track of Command Points] The SM player is not allowed to use more CP's than the no. shown on the counter, and if he has used more CP's than he had available then he immediately loses the game. (This implies that I can use more, how else would I go over if I'm allowed to check the counter whenever I want?) [Mission Status Phase] The players should check the victory conditions of the mission to see if either of them has won. The game ends as noted in the mission rules, usually when a specific event has happened or objective has been achieved. (This clearly states that victory conditions are check before moving on.) After victory conditions have been checked, the SM player reveals the command point counter to show that he has not expended more than he had for the turn... (Again, this implies that I can use more than what I drew.)

Mission Book - [Mission 1 - Victory] When this happens the game ends and the SM's win immediately. (This clearly states that that there is no moving on, stop, the game is done.)

You are mistaken, you loose immediately if you use to many. So you wont even get to the mission status phase.

This is of course not possible since you are not allowed to use more then avalible

Reread page 18 Mission Status Phase. Victory conditions are checked for a victor before the command point usage counter is checked.

The Power Cosmic wrote:See, if you could use as many as you wanted to win, then Marines could win, for example, the first mission on turn one by using a whole hell of a lot of command points. In your example, just because the little track ends at 6 doesn't mean the Marine player would have to stop there if they could go all out to win on that turn. So what makes turn 1 different from turn 8?

The Mission Status Display limits you to a maximum of 6 CP's.

Gwar! wrote:I would guess it is there for things that automatically use points without an option not to. Is there anything like that?

No.

You can move the models diagonally?

You are allowed to move one square diagonally. I am not sure if you are allowed more.

then if you want to continue down a corridor you are required to turn 90 degrees.

Oni, you are trying to break the game. Anytime you use more command points than you have, you lose.

The timing of the resolution doesn't change the fact that you have used more CP than you should have.

There is a diagram showing how many points if costs for a Terminator to move. It costs 1 to move straight forwards or diagonally, and 2 to move backwards.

There is nothing to suggest a Terminator may move only one square per turn, or that the movement cost goes up for the second move. Once he has move one square, even if diagonally, the same movement cost applies to his next square of movement. Thus, a Terminator can move diagonally until he runs out of points or hits a wall.

(The LoS/LoF query is also clearly answered in the rules and diagrams.)

This FAQ largely served only to irritate me. A coworker and I, previous to the re-release, were playing at work. We had an argument about whether or not the heavy flamer marine could burn a room with a brother marine in it, thereby killing him. After much arguing, we decided that FAQ that indicated that a marine may not shoot another marine also covered the heavy flamer... he could sacrifice himself, but not kill a brother marine. So that's how we played it.

Clearly this question has been asked by others, and I really appreciate how GW took pains to answer the question a.) not at all or b.) in the most confusing manner imaginable, depending on how you interpret their non answer.

The question, which is essentially a "yes" or "no" question, is answered with confusing extraneous information that really could go either way. A target square cannot be empty AND contain a marine, so the first "condition" is moot. Are they saying you can burn a room with a marine in it, so long as it also has a genestealer in it? Or, if there only needs to be one empty square, you could burn a room with a marine and no enemies in it - which again means the best answer to that question was simply "yes".

Ouze wrote:This FAQ largely served only to irritate me. A coworker and I, previous to the re-release, were playing at work. We had an argument about whether or not the heavy flamer marine could burn a room with a brother marine in it, thereby killing him. After much arguing, we decided that FAQ that indicated that a marine may not shoot another marine also covered the heavy flamer... he could sacrifice himself, but not kill a brother marine. So that's how we played it.

Clearly this question has been asked by others, and I really appreciate how GW took pains to answer the question a.) not at all or b.) in the most confusing manner imaginable, depending on how you interpret their non answer.

The question, which is essentially a "yes" or "no" question, is answered with confusing extraneous information that really could go either way. A target square cannot be empty AND contain a marine, so the first "condition" is moot. Are they saying you can burn a room with a marine in it, so long as it also has a genestealer in it? Or, if there only needs to be one empty square, you could burn a room with a marine and no enemies in it - which again means the best answer to that question was simply "yes".

While I certainly understand your ire, I do think the question is pretty clearly answered. The question is whether or not you can fire on a SECTION that has a marine in it, and the answer is essentially, yes you can provided that the target SQUARE (you have to target a particular square to fire the Flamer into) is either empty or has a Stealer in it.

So the answer can't be a straight out 'yes' because if the first square to a section has a marine in it, the Flamer model cannot then flame that section as LOS to the section is blocked to all but the first square of the section and that square contains a marine.

oni wrote:

Bla_Ze wrote:

oni wrote:After consulting the rulebook and the mission book (mission 1) I am 100% convinced that I'm right. You CAN spend more command points than you have (to maximum of 6) as a last ditch attempt to win.

Rulebook - [Keeping Track of Command Points] The SM player is not allowed to use more CP's than the no. shown on the counter, and if he has used more CP's than he had available then he immediately loses the game. (This implies that I can use more, how else would I go over if I'm allowed to check the counter whenever I want?) [Mission Status Phase] The players should check the victory conditions of the mission to see if either of them has won. The game ends as noted in the mission rules, usually when a specific event has happened or objective has been achieved. (This clearly states that victory conditions are check before moving on.) After victory conditions have been checked, the SM player reveals the command point counter to show that he has not expended more than he had for the turn... (Again, this implies that I can use more than what I drew.)

Mission Book - [Mission 1 - Victory] When this happens the game ends and the SM's win immediately. (This clearly states that that there is no moving on, stop, the game is done.)

You are mistaken, you loose immediately if you use to many. So you wont even get to the mission status phase.

This is of course not possible since you are not allowed to use more then avalible

Reread page 18 Mission Status Phase. Victory conditions are checked for a victor before the command point usage counter is checked.

Maybe next time read my post. The SPLIT second you use one AP to many, you loose.

The rule is simple "Immediately loses the game" No room for arguing

Bla_Ze wrote:

oni wrote:

Bla_Ze wrote:

oni wrote:After consulting the rulebook and the mission book (mission 1) I am 100% convinced that I'm right. You CAN spend more command points than you have (to maximum of 6) as a last ditch attempt to win.

Rulebook - [Keeping Track of Command Points] The SM player is not allowed to use more CP's than the no. shown on the counter, and if he has used more CP's than he had available then he immediately loses the game. (This implies that I can use more, how else would I go over if I'm allowed to check the counter whenever I want?) [Mission Status Phase] The players should check the victory conditions of the mission to see if either of them has won. The game ends as noted in the mission rules, usually when a specific event has happened or objective has been achieved. (This clearly states that victory conditions are check before moving on.) After victory conditions have been checked, the SM player reveals the command point counter to show that he has not expended more than he had for the turn... (Again, this implies that I can use more than what I drew.)

Mission Book - [Mission 1 - Victory] When this happens the game ends and the SM's win immediately. (This clearly states that that there is no moving on, stop, the game is done.)

You are mistaken, you loose immediately if you use to many. So you wont even get to the mission status phase.

This is of course not possible since you are not allowed to use more then avalible

Reread page 18 Mission Status Phase. Victory conditions are checked for a victor before the command point usage counter is checked.

Maybe next time read my post. The SPLIT second you use one AP to many, you loose.

The rule is simple "Immediately loses the game" No room for arguing

You draw a command counter -> It gets placed face down on the display track -> When CP's are used the Genestealer player moves the counter (still face down) -> Once both player have completed their action phase, move onto the Mission Status phase -> Mission Status phase goes in order as such -> 1st check for a winner, 2nd reveal the command point counter, 3rd remove overwatch, on-guard, and flamer counters -> Start another round if no one has won.

I think I get what you're saying. That even if I were to use more CP's and technically 'win' in the 1st step of the Mission Status phase, I still move to the 2nd step to check CP's and that would then take the victory from me. If I'm understanding you correctly, I definitely see your argument. My only questions / retort would be... If it's set in stone that you absolutely can not use more CP's than what you drew, why bother having a rule as to what happens if you DO use more? In what other scenario could you ever use more to justify the rule of what happens if you use more and why is that an exception to this? Lastly, why would Mission 1 say that as soon as the control room is flamed the game immediately ends (skipping the Mission Status phase completely)?

BTW - I'm not trying to break the game. Think about it, this is actually in the spirit of the game. One last desperate push to achieve victory. How is that not entirely in line with what Space Hulk is about?

oni wrote:
I think I get what you're saying. That even if I were to use more CP's and technically 'win' in the 1st step of the Mission Status phase, I still move to the 2nd step to check CP's and that would then take the victory from me. If I'm understanding you correctly, I definitely see your argument. My only questions / retort would be... If it's set in stone that you absolutely can not use more CP's than what you drew, why bother having a rule as to what happens if you DO use more? In what other scenario could you ever use more to justify the rule of what happens if you use more and why is that an exception to this? Lastly, why would Mission 1 say that as soon as the control room is flamed the game immediately ends (skipping the Mission Status phase completely)?

BTW - I'm not trying to break the game. Think about it, this is actually in the spirit of the game. One last desperate push to achieve victory. How is that not entirely in line with what Space Hulk is about?

Because the Command Point counter is kept a secret from the Genestealer player (but is tracked by the stealer player) so it is entirely possible for a marine player to accidentally or intentionally use more Command Points then they actually have.

The rule is in place as a safeguard for the stealer player to double-check that the marine player hasn't used too many command points, and if they have to let you know that you have basically forfeit the game if you have.

yakface wrote:Because the Command Point counter is kept a secret from the Genestealer player (but is tracked by the stealer player) so it is entirely possible for a marine player to accidentally or intentionally use more Command Points then they actually have.

The rule is in place as a safeguard for the stealer player to double-check that the marine player hasn't used too many command points, and if they have to let you know that you have basically forfeit the game if you have.

OK, I'm going to 'eat crow' on this one, but I think it would make for a great house rule. Thanks yakface.