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Why do we care whether or not the thunderhammer rends or not? At S10 any roll of a 6 to wound or pen is already going to pen or wound.

I can't believe no one sees the value of running them with stormshields. Sure it's expensive but what the heck. Go strong or don't go at all. They need a Wolf Lord to chaperone them and that buff makes them a lot stronger and a heck of a lot more resilient.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I can't believe no one sees the value of running them with stormshields. Sure it's expensive but what the heck. Go strong or don't go at all. They need a Wolf Lord to chaperone them and that buff makes them a lot stronger and a heck of a lot more resilient.

G

I am planning on taking Storm Shields for my 3rd company.

Canis [2 Wolves] + 5 TWC with Storm Shields and one with a Thunder Hammer

Wolf Lord [Thunder Wolf, Frost Blade, Combi-Melta, Saga of Beast Hunter, 2 Wolves, Runic Armor, Belt of Russ] + 5 TWC with Plasma Pistols, Melta Bombs and one Frost Blade {For Tank/Monster Hunting}

Wolf Guard Battle Leader [Thunder Wolf, Frost Blade, Plasma Pistol, Saga of the Warrior Born] + 5 TWC

I can't believe no one sees the value of running them with stormshields. Sure it's expensive but what the heck. Go strong or don't go at all. They need a Wolf Lord to chaperone them and that buff makes them a lot stronger and a heck of a lot more resilient.

Sorry Greeney, I disagree. I would rather have more wolves than tougher wolves. At tough 5, not much insta kills them, so most weapons will only do a wound. With wound allocation rules they will last a long time. It is better to take more bodies, with more attacks and more wounds, in my opinion.

I'm not sure I agree. When you have a trump unit, you want it to be a trump unit, not a sometimes trump unit.

Consider the difference against a unit of bloodcrushers. With the improved charge range, you can assume the cav will get the charge. That negates the furious charge, and so both sides swing simul, so damage output is not affected.

While I'm not going to run the math here, the cav will, on average put 3 or 4 wounds on the crushers.

8 crushers are getting 24 attacks in that first round of combat, and probably landing 16 of them. Wounding on 4+, that's eight wounds - even with wound allocation, you have at most 2 models left, with one wound apiece. You lose the combat, and take a test at Ld4, and probably then take another 4 saves for combat res.

Take a 3+ invul against that, and now you're looking at having taken just over 2 wounds - possibly not losing any models at all. You win the combat, the daemons take an extra armour save.


What about a block of 10 TH/SS terminators? Same kind of thing.

You swing first, and probably inflict 2 casualties. So 8 of them swing back. 16 attack, 8 hit, and you take six wounds. Lose by four again...

With the shields, you're looking at 2 wounds instead, you draw the combat, and possibly don't lose any models either.

Yeah, it makes the unit more expensive. But, a unit like this, you need to know that you can throw them at your opponent's power unit and do okay. Having two units of 5 wolves does crap-all for you if your opponent drops two crusher blocks and you can't charge them. It doesn't help you much if you have to tip-toe around your opponent's TH/SS unit.

I agree with GBF in this case, go strong, or go home.

Redbeard wrote:I'm not sure I agree. When you have a trump unit, you want it to be a trump unit, not a sometimes trump unit.

I agree. There are too many instances where a 3+ INV becomes very handy for the whole unit and turns a minor loss into a major win.

If your playing them against TH/SS termies, then your playing them wrong.

If you let a TH/SS thats not in a LR charge you, well your playing the game wrong.

Stelek just posted a BR, he was using 2x/5x Thunderwolf Cavlary, he destroyed an entire flank with five of them.

Link: http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/10/battle-report-space-wolves-vs-drop-pods.html

Lord-Loss wrote:If your playing them against TH/SS termies, then your playing them wrong.

Ok, so what in the SW army do you use to drop the TH/SS termie unit? You're not running around with a ton of long-range shooting. And your terminators cannot match them point-for-point. Thing is, a Thunderwolf Cav charge - with Stormshields, can wreck those terminators. Without the shields, you're dog wolf food.

If you let a TH/SS thats not in a LR charge you, well your playing the game wrong.

Agreed. But that doesn't mean they won't be on the board. I'd say the same thing about Bloodcrushers too. But, they will close with you, and unless you're assaulting, you're no faster than any other infantry unit. So, a big part of 'not letting them assault you' is assaulting them first.

So, if I charge them, I'm playing them wrong, but if I let them charge me, I'm playing the game wrong? What exactly should I be doing with them, running away?

Stelek just posted a BR, he was using 2x/5x Thunderwolf Cavlary, he destroyed an entire flank with five of them.

Link: http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/10/battle-report-space-wolves-vs-drop-pods.html

Your point being? He was playing against drop pod marines. That's not exactly hard to beat with any fast assaulty unit.

Lord-Loss wrote:If your playing them against TH/SS termies, then your playing them wrong.

If you let a TH/SS thats not in a LR charge you, well your playing the game wrong.

This doesn't make any sense. Any army that includes TH/SS termies will have a method of delivering them, whether they be in an LR or LRC or with Shrike. Plus, the army is not in a vaccuum. If you take a big TWC unit, then your army should include some method of complementing them, like with Rhino's to block LOS/Charge lanes, or heavy weaponry to crack transports so the TWC's can mop up, or any other combination.

I'm not sure I agree. When you have a trump unit, you want it to be a trump unit, not a sometimes trump unit.

TWC aren't a trump unit, they are an above average assault unit, and disruption unit, IMO.

They are fast, will kill most all non dedicated assault units, and cause mayhem in enemy plans.

If you try to go toe to tow with Nob Bikers and Blood Crushers you are not going to win. Better to keep them cheap and let them fulfill their function, IMO.

Reecius wrote:
TWC aren't a trump unit, they are an above average assault unit, and disruption unit, IMO.

If you don't give them shields, you're right. But, if that's the case, what do SW have that is a trump unit? It's not Wolf Guard - they're ridiculously expensive to equip for CC. SW heavy support is pedestrian, it's like Ultras, minus some options. Your troops all depend on getting close to the opponent to do anything, which means they will be in combat, and while grey hunters and blood claws are decent, they're still only marines. A couple of daemon princes will walk through unit after unit without breaking a sweat.

TWC are the best consideration for a trump in the codex, if you give them shields. Without shields, you're right, they're an above-average assault unit. But an above-average assault unit isn't going to get it done against the trumps that you'll see from other codexes.

and cause mayhem in enemy plans.

A lone wolf will cause mayhem in enemy plans too, far cheaper. Scouts will cause mayhem in enemy plans. I don't think it is disruption that is lacking in the SW codex, I think it is heavy hitters.

Reecius wrote:

I'm not sure I agree. When you have a trump unit, you want it to be a trump unit, not a sometimes trump unit.

TWC aren't a trump unit, they are an above average assault unit, and disruption unit, IMO.

They are fast, will kill most all non dedicated assault units, and cause mayhem in enemy plans.

If you try to go toe to tow with Nob Bikers and Blood Crushers you are not going to win. Better to keep them cheap and let them fulfill their function, IMO.

This. They don't need to be trying to eat TH/SS terminators, they should be eating the tasty tactical marines.

The storm shield discussion doesn't have a right or wrong answer.

I currently (without having any games under my belt) prefer no storm shield. Especially when you consider that buying 2 storm shields is more expensive than just adding another naked thunderwolf.

However, depending on that units 'mission', it might be useful. If you have a ton of lone wolves floating around, and possibly beastslayer/belt wolf lords on TWC, then you don't need to take on every MC on the table.

But it isn't crazy to want to build a unit that isn't afraid of anything in combat. I don't believe it is optimal (every guy besides the thunderhammer/power fist loses a strength 5 rending attack just to take a save that they only use against some opponents).

I'm obsessed with optimization. It is a blessing/curse I suppose. But models that don't have two handed CC weapons don't get storm shields, I hate losing 30 points and a quality attack just for an insurance policy.

Another pet peeve of mine is the single storm shield.... Against a unit like redbeard's 10 assault terminators, you'll only be able to allocate one in three wounds to the shield. Your thunderhammer model is going to have to eat 1 in 3 as well. if you took 6 thunderhammer wounds. Who cares if you had a storm shield, your hammer is gone, the naked thunderwolf is gone, and you are left with a model that is not going to win combat against surviving terminators.

Mentioning using the shield versus shooting is not a winning argument either, as you should be taking a 4+ cover save. 16% increase in survivability for 60% of the cost of a two wound model isn't good math.

Now if you are advocating 80 point bolt pistol/storm shield thunderwolves, you really lost me. With no 2+ save or FNP, that unit is overpriced, and will just get chewed up by multi-lasers/scatter lasers/heavy bolters/autocannons.

In summation. i disagree on storm shields, but not so much that I'd call a storm shield user "wrong".


Although it sounds crazy, the model that i would consider adding a sotrm shield to would be the thunderhammer carrier. it would NOT be used as a wound gaffer, I would pretend it didn't exist, but when I did take a round of 6+ power weapon wounds, he would be much more likely to survive, and as he is the power behind the unit, that could be worth 30 points... and you don't lose an attack

What counts as a trump unit?

A unit that trumps all others in combat, like Nob Bikers, Blood crushers, etc.

And once again, I find myself in agreement with Shep. Seeming to be doing that a lot lately.

TH/SS on foot are easy to stop, TH/SS are just as easy.


If there footslogging you use the old Hit n' run tactic, move 18"-24" and fire, next turn get back into your rhino and move back 12" and repeat or hit them with mass autocannon, heavy bolter fire.

If there in a LR, then sarcifice a GH with double melta to destroy there LR, then ignore them.

Charging a unit of Bloodclaws into them would kill half of them.

Shep wrote:
I currently (without having any games under my belt) prefer no storm shield. Especially when you consider that buying 2 storm shields is more expensive than just adding another naked thunderwolf.

I agree - but you can only have so many wolves in a unit, and without them having a higher initiative, throwing more of them into a fight doesn't reduce the wounds you take. Back to the bloodcrushers (that something in your army has to deal with...), you're losing the same eight wounds whether that's on one unit or two. If it's on two units, you run the risk of losing both to sweeping advances. And, that second unit still costs points, meaning that your opponent probably has a second unit of something to toss in as well.

But it isn't crazy to want to build a unit that isn't afraid of anything in combat. I don't believe it is optimal (every guy besides the thunderhammer/power fist loses a strength 5 rending attack just to take a save that they only use against some opponents).

I'm obsessed with optimization. It is a blessing/curse I suppose. But models that don't have two handed CC weapons don't get storm shields, I hate losing 30 points and a quality attack just for an insurance policy.

I can see this point - but on the other hand, I'm obsessed with having each unit actually able to do something beneficial. To me, that means not taking 250+ point units that have no real shooting power and can't fight other assault units. I'm willing to lose those 4 attacks in order to get a unit that can actually hang with the big boys.

Another pet peeve of mine is the single storm shield.... Against a unit like redbeard's 10 assault terminators, you'll only be able to allocate one in three wounds to the shield. Your thunderhammer model is going to have to eat 1 in 3 as well. if you took 6 thunderhammer wounds. Who cares if you had a storm shield, your hammer is gone, the naked thunderwolf is gone, and you are left with a model that is not going to win combat against surviving terminators.

What about this loadout, for 400ish points:
1: Frost Blade/SS
1: CCW/SS/Meltabomb
1: CCW/Plasma Pistol
1: CCW/SS
1: CCW/Plasma Pistol/Meltabomb

So, there are 3 stormshields, and everyone is unique, which should let you dump more wounds onto the guys with SS than a lone SS. You're also getting 2 attacks back from the guys without shields, and the frostblade swings before the other guy's powerfists. You don't need the thunderhammer with 2 meltabomb guys and rending on 2 other guys.

At 400 points, that's roughly equivalent to a full TH/SS unit from the Marine dex, and shouldn't be afraid to wade into them.

Mentioning using the shield versus shooting is not a winning argument either, as you should be taking a 4+ cover save. 16% increase in survivability for 60% of the cost of a two wound model isn't good math.

You're right - but in the real world, as opposed to the theoretical 5e environment, there are times when, despite your best efforts, your guys don't have cover. Still, I agree with the general sentiment.

Now if you are advocating 80 point bolt pistol/storm shield thunderwolves, you really lost me.

I don't think BP/SS is an option. You give up the BP to get the shield. I'm not following the argument here, as I think that's exactly what is being advocated - a whole unit with shields.

Razerous wrote:What counts as a trump unit?

In general, a big point-sinky type unit that can generally do a ton of damage against any normal unit in CC. Examples referenced so far in this thread include Nob Bikers, TH/SS terminators, and Bloodcrushers. They're trumps because against anything other than another trump unit, they're just going to roll over it, hence 'trumping' the other guys play. If you bring a unit of Striking Scorpions as your assault element, and I bring a unit of bloodcrushers, your scorpions are as good as not-even-there - they've been trumped.

I agree that a storm-shield on a 3-strong squad isnt the way to go. If you had two storm shields along with a runic & belted armoured wolf-riding HQ in a 5-strong squad, then it can become quite soaky.

Besides the kill-point issue, I think a nacked thunderwolf to be better than a 50pt lone wolf any day of the week. Of course the fact that you dont loose a killpoint upon death with the latter is a big factor.

If you want a harassment style force, two squads of 2, or even two squads of 1, is the way to go. Otherwise, go get a full 5-man unit, possibly with a tough HQ, definetly with a SS.

Oh - And just a side note, you cant take both the Thunderhammer & the Storm shield.

You can swap your BP for a storm shield or your Close combat weapon.

Redbeard wrote:I can see this point - but on the other hand, I'm obsessed with having each unit actually able to do something beneficial. To me, that means not taking 250+ point units that have no real shooting power and can't fight other assault units. I'm willing to lose those 4 attacks in order to get a unit that can actually hang with the big boys.

Can't fight other assault units is a TALL statement.

5x thunderwolf cavalry, one with thunderhammer and stormshield, one with meltabomb, 3 naked. 315 points. How does this unit 'not hang with the big boys' Using examples like 10 THSS is a bit crazy, I never see that unit. I see 5 and 5. Take them on one at a time, and my unit goes RIGHT through them. Nob bikers aren't losing to ANY TWC unit without being thinned out. I'll just thin them out that little bit more with the points I saved on storm shields. Bloodcrushers and Bloodthirsters are CC gods. I'll pick at them with some shooting first. I don't need to beat them at their game.

Redbeard wrote:What about this loadout, for 400ish points:
1: Frost Blade/SS
1: CCW/SS/Meltabomb
1: CCW/Plasma Pistol
1: CCW/SS
1: CCW/Plasma Pistol/Meltabomb

So, there are 3 stormshields, and everyone is unique, which should let you dump more wounds onto the guys with SS than a lone SS. You're also getting 2 attacks back from the guys without shields, and the frostblade swings before the other guy's powerfists. You don't need the thunderhammer with 2 meltabomb guys and rending on 2 other guys.

At 400 points, that's roughly equivalent to a full TH/SS unit from the Marine dex, and shouldn't be afraid to wade into them.

We just lost 4 strength 10 attacks in your build . I couldn't imagine doing that. But we can just swap that thunderhammer right back in there. I don't dislike plasma pistols as a useful shooting wound gaffer... But your unit is a full 90 points over the one I posted above. It has two more models with storm shields, 2 BS stength 7 shots (you might use them). Better wound allocation, but less attacks in CC, and costing a full dakka pred, or almost a naked rune priest.

Sometimes FOC slots matter, and like I said in an earlier post, i don't think this unit is "wrong". But I'd rather take a more MSU approach to TWC and use my HQ slots to fill out points.

I respect the unit composition you just posted, I get what its doing. But I wouldn't use it myself.

This is what I am thinking a SW cav list looks like... that might help in understanding why I don't think they need to be invulnerable unkillable monsters.

Canis
belt lord with frost blade bolt pistol and TWC
rune priest lightning jaws
rune priest lightning murderous hurricane

10x grey hunters 2x melta mow

10x grey hunters 2x melta mow

5x grey hunters

10x fenrisian wolves

2x thunderwolves thunderhammer meltabomb

2x thunderwolves thunderhammer meltabomb

2x thunderwolves thunderhammer meltabomb

6x long fangs 5x missiles

6x long fangs 5x missiles


As you can see I'm thinking I need a lot more shooting to support the cav. i can't imagine going toe to toe with an all red demon army or nob bikers with any kind of TWC list unless I had some serious fire power.

If i get too spendy on storm shields, I may just end up with a bad demon army.

Lord-Loss wrote:You can swap your BP for a storm shield or your Close combat weapon.

So you well can. My sincerest apologises. New codex, my bad.

Any TWC may Replace his Bolt Pistol for a Bolt Gun, Plasma Pistol, or Storm Shield
One can Replace BP or CCW for PW, WC, Frost Weapon, TH or SS

Razerous wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:You can swap your BP for a storm shield or your Close combat weapon.

So you well can. My sincerest apologises. New codex, my bad.

you can only swap it with the CC weapon if you don't want to take a special CC weapon. anyone can trade their BP for one though.

airmang wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:You can swap your BP for a storm shield or your Close combat weapon.

So you well can. My sincerest apologises. New codex, my bad.

you can only swap it with the CC weapon if you don't want to take a special CC weapon. anyone can trade their BP for one though.

oh crap... does this mean no thunderhammer/SS on anyone in the unit?

Shep wrote:oh crap... does this mean no thunderhammer/SS on anyone in the unit?

You can only do the TH/SS on one model in the unit, another could easily be a P.fist/SS and the third could be kept as a neckid Thunderwolf, a fourth can be given melta-bombs and a 5th can be given either MotW (On average you loose 1 attack but potentially strike with 7 base, before charging) for cheapness or for quadruple the cost, a power-weapon.

I just want to chime in on the Rending Thunderhammers. I totally don't get this. Is there anything a Thunderhammer doesn't wound on a 6? Is there anything a str 10 thunderhammer doesn't pen on a 6? Isn't it sort of academic whether a Thunderwolf's thunderhammer rends?

Shep wrote:
Can't fight other assault units is a TALL statement.

5x thunderwolf cavalry, one with thunderhammer and stormshield, one with meltabomb, 3 naked. 315 points. How does this unit 'not hang with the big boys' Using examples like 10 THSS is a bit crazy, I never see that unit. I see 5 and 5. Take them on one at a time, and my unit goes RIGHT through them. Nob bikers aren't losing to ANY TWC unit without being thinned out. I'll just thin them out that little bit more with the points I saved on storm shields. Bloodcrushers and Bloodthirsters are CC gods. I'll pick at them with some shooting first. I don't need to beat them at their game.

Given that I've dropped a unit of crushers right in front of 60 rapid-firing necrons and still had enough models to sweep all three units off the table afterwards, I find the idea of picking at them with some shooting kind of funny. Although, in your list, I guess you do have 10 krak missiles to fire at them. But the bolters just don't cut it.

We just lost 4 strength 10 attacks in your build . I couldn't imagine doing that. But we can just swap that thunderhammer right back in there. I don't dislike plasma pistols as a useful shooting wound gaffer... But your unit is a full 90 points over the one I posted above. It has two more models with storm shields, 2 BS stength 7 shots (you might use them). Better wound allocation, but less attacks in CC, and costing a full dakka pred, or almost a naked rune priest.

I was considering the initiative thing, but you're right, it's just 5 points to keep the TH, I'd forgotten it was S10 not 8. Even still, that 90 points means my unit can whup yours if we meet, right I can soak your rending hits and your TH hits separately, as they're a separate initiative step, so I can minimize the damage your best hits do, while your guys are dropping

Sometimes FOC slots matter, and like I said in an earlier post, i don't think this unit is "wrong". But I'd rather take a more MSU approach to TWC and use my HQ slots to fill out points.

In 4th ed, I'd agree. How many kill points do you want on the table? Especially non-scoring ones? 4 wounds isn't hard to drop.

This is what I am thinking a SW cav list looks like... that might help in understanding why I don't think they need to be invulnerable unkillable monsters.

...

As you can see I'm thinking I need a lot more shooting to support the cav. i can't imagine going toe to toe with an all red demon army or nob bikers with any kind of TWC list unless I had some serious fire power.

If i get too spendy on storm shields, I may just end up with a bad demon army.

I guess. I can respect a small unit of these guys. Three small units seems like it asking to have them beat-up, and lose important weapons faster. I guess I'm just likening them to nob-bikers, which, initially, people thought were a point-sink, that no one would run many of them, etc - but it turned out that going big was the key to the unit. I guess time shall tell. I don't think what you're doing is necessarily wrong, either, BTW, just thinking about it from the other perspective.

I don't see the point of saying to take Stormshields for invulnerables against shooting.

Theres like I dunno 5 vehiclesin the entire game that are STR10 Large Blast I think there may be more

Eldar Prism Cannon combined shot
demolisher
Manticore
Medusa
Vindicator

Thats all I can think of.


With the prevalence of Cover Saves and being able to Shield them with Rhinos in a Mechanized list its kind of pointless as theyll be in combat on the second turn regardless.

Shep wrote:

airmang wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:You can swap your BP for a storm shield or your Close combat weapon.

So you well can. My sincerest apologises. New codex, my bad.

you can only swap it with the CC weapon if you don't want to take a special CC weapon. anyone can trade their BP for one though.

oh crap... does this mean no thunderhammer/SS on anyone in the unit?

No, but it means you can have a TWC with two SS. But anyone slowed enough to do that should be playing with toy blocks.

Hollismason wrote:I don't see the point of saying to take Stormshields for invulnerables against shooting.

Theres like I dunno 5 vehiclesin the entire game that are STR10 Large Blast I think there may be more

Eldar Prism Cannon combined shot
demolisher
Manticore
Medusa
Vindicator

Thats all I can think of.


With the prevalence of Cover Saves and being able to Shield them with Rhinos in a Mechanized list its kind of pointless as theyll be in combat on the second turn regardless.

I think where red beard was really getting at was taking the SS for weathering CC God of Wars like TH/SS termies, Blood Crushers, Biker Nobs as well as letting you hunt MC and Dreads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord-Loss wrote:No, but it means you can have a TWC with two SS. But anyone slowed enough to do that should be playing with toy blocks.

Heah, I liked my legos growing up