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Redbeard wrote:I guess. I can respect a small unit of these guys. Three small units seems like it asking to have them beat-up, and lose important weapons faster. I guess I'm just likening them to nob-bikers, which, initially, people thought were a point-sink, that no one would run many of them, etc - but it turned out that going big was the key to the unit. I guess time shall tell. I don't think what you're doing is necessarily wrong, either, BTW, just thinking about it from the other perspective.

Don't forget their leadership 8 either. If anyone is bringing TWC to the wild west shootout, then they better pass their armor saves when my manticores start raining down. Taking pinning tests at leadership 7 on a 400 point unit could create a pretty good reason to punch someone.

And having just checked the book, we are forced to trade pistols for the shields, so your plasma pistol/shield model (which I liked) can't happen, since the single special CC weapon is pretty much mandatory. The uber unit now, seems like it can only be this...

thunderhammer storm shield
storm shield
storm shield meltabomb
naked
naked meltabomb

380 points. A pretty serious hitter. But needs a belt lord, probably with saga of majesty to not have serious morale issues.

Obviously the little units have morale issues as well, but the little duo units are only 130 a piece. Three of them cost 10 points more than this mega unit, they have one more model and TWO more thunderhammers.

I think I would always start there, then add models if I need them. But with 4 HQ slots and 3 slots for iron priests/lone wolves, it'll be a long time before I feel like I need them.

Just played a test game with them.

1500, using the following list;

Wolf Lord, Saga of Majesty, frost blade, belt
Rune Priest on bike, some powers.
3x 10 wolfguard in rhinos, 2 meltas
1 lone wolf, mark of wolfkin
5 fenrisian wolves
5 scouts, melta, power weapon and melta bombs
5 Cav (SS/TH, SS/CCW, SS/CCW/Meltabomb, BP/CCW, BP/CCW/meltabomb)


My opponent had a deathwing army with him.
Belial
Librarian
Command squad w/ banner, and medic, and stuff
2x terminator squads
2x vindicators
1x 3-lascannon predator

So, right off the bat, the lone wolf and fenrisian wolves are wasted. The rune priest is killed nearly immediately, and I lose 2 rhinos to assault cannon shots on the first turn (in spite of them having used smoke launchers) - and they say that everything is so survivable in 5e.

And then the scouts roll the '2' that means that they're coming in on the other side of the table from where all the action is...

Meanwhile, the Cav - the point of this post - table my opponent almost singlehandedly. The one grey-hunter squad that didn't lose its rhino right off the bat killed one of the vindicators. The Cav+Lord killed the entire rest of the Deathwing Army.

The stormshields proved their worth many times over, when facing units of terminators swinging lightning claws and thunderhammers at them. Without the shields, they'd never have made it past Belial's squad. As it was, between spreading wounds around smartly and just being able to deal a ton of damage, they pretty much ran from unit to unit killing stuff. I still had the Lord (w/ 1 wound remaining) and the thunderhammer (also, 1 wound remaining) at the end of the game,

Obviously, 1 game does not prove anything, and it's anecdotal evidence at best, but I do not dislike that setup.

Redbeard wrote:Just played a test game with them.

1500, using the following list;

Wolf Lord, Saga of Majesty, frost blade, belt
Rune Priest on bike, some powers.
3x 10 wolfguard in rhinos, 2 meltas
1 lone wolf, mark of wolfkin
5 fenrisian wolves
5 scouts, melta, power weapon and melta bombs
5 Cav (SS/TH, SS/CCW, SS/CCW/Meltabomb, BP/CCW, BP/CCW/meltabomb)


My opponent had a deathwing army with him.
Belial
Librarian
Command squad w/ banner, and medic, and stuff
2x terminator squads
2x vindicators
1x 3-lascannon predator

So, right off the bat, the lone wolf and fenrisian wolves are wasted. The rune priest is killed nearly immediately, and I lose 2 rhinos to assault cannon shots on the first turn (in spite of them having used smoke launchers) - and they say that everything is so survivable in 5e.

And then the scouts roll the '2' that means that they're coming in on the other side of the table from where all the action is...

Meanwhile, the Cav - the point of this post - table my opponent almost singlehandedly. The one grey-hunter squad that didn't lose its rhino right off the bat killed one of the vindicators. The Cav+Lord killed the entire rest of the Deathwing Army.

The stormshields proved their worth many times over, when facing units of terminators swinging lightning claws and thunderhammers at them. Without the shields, they'd never have made it past Belial's squad. As it was, between spreading wounds around smartly and just being able to deal a ton of damage, they pretty much ran from unit to unit killing stuff. I still had the Lord (w/ 1 wound remaining) and the thunderhammer (also, 1 wound remaining) at the end of the game,

Obviously, 1 game does not prove anything, and it's anecdotal evidence at best, but I do not dislike that setup.

Cool, sharing this with us is very useful. The fact that your set-up got isolated but was still able to function without any support, does show their merit. No long range anti-light vehicle is pretty risky for my tastes, but I'll log this mini batrep in my brain all the same

I agree, but I wasn't sure where to go to get the anti-light vehicle. And part of me wasn't too worried about it, figuring that the meltagun toting grey hunters could pop a transport and the cavalry could pounce on the juice contents. Scouts were equipped to tackle stay-in-the-back-all-game vehicles, and the Rune Priest had the autocannon power - but Dark Angel's psychic hoods have unlimited range, and he out-rolled me on the tests before the priest got smoked.

Note to self: Rune priest needs to be in a squad, to get some protection. Being on a bike, alone, isn't so good.

Im running this at 1500pts;

Wolf Lord: [205]:Thunderwolf Mount, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield

5x Thunder Wolf Calvary: [280]:Thunder Hammer
5x Thunder Wolf Calvary: [280]:Thunder Hammer

10x Grey Hunters: [190]:2x meltagun, Rhino
10x Grey Hunters: [190]:2x meltagun, Rhino
10x Grey Hunters: [190]:2x meltagun, Rhino

Dakka Predators: [85]:Autocannon, Heavy bolter sponsons
Dakka Predators: [85]:Autocannon, Heavy bolter sponsons

My Wolf Lord will probaly go off on his own, he's so awesome he doesnt need a squad with him.

For anti-tank, assault cannon dreads and autocannon/lascannon preds are pretty cheap. Also, running grey hunters in razorbacks can help too.

Redbeard, in your list, since the strength comes from the TWC, how much would it have hurt you to turn your 3x10 marines in a rhino to 3x 6 marines in a razorback with either Lascannons or Assault cannons?

sourclams wrote:TH Cav will lose a fight to assault Terminators and many other primary assault-only units. Giving them sick amounts of equipment only inflates their cost.

I say one Thundershield, one Powerfist, and you're done. Use them as a fast, mobile disruption unit to kill objective sitters and backfield armor.

Trying to turn them into Assault Terminators will simply bloat your list and they still won't do that well.

Makes absolute sense.

pguard36 wrote:

sourclams wrote:TH Cav will lose a fight to assault Terminators and many other primary assault-only units. Giving them sick amounts of equipment only inflates their cost.

I say one Thundershield, one Powerfist, and you're done. Use them as a fast, mobile disruption unit to kill objective sitters and backfield armor.

Trying to turn them into Assault Terminators will simply bloat your list and they still won't do that well.

Makes absolute sense.

Except - it's not true. As I found last night, giving the unit of TH Cav stormshields allowed them to run through 3 full units of DW terminators, with every member of those squad running either TH, PF or Claws, including the command squad with Belial, a standard (extra attack) and apothecary.

They actually fulfill the role of assault terminators pretty well once geared up - only super-fast assault terminators.

whitedragon wrote:For anti-tank, assault cannon dreads and autocannon/lascannon preds are pretty cheap. Also, running grey hunters in razorbacks can help too.

Redbeard, in your list, since the strength comes from the TWC, how much would it have hurt you to turn your 3x10 marines in a rhino to 3x 6 marines in a razorback with either Lascannons or Assault cannons?

That's a good question. I know it costs a meltagun per squad to do this. It also cuts out 12 attacks when charged/charging and six rapid-fire shots.

But I don't know how much any of those things will actually be used. Played one whole game so far

What models are you all using to make TWC?

Canis with conversions?

Just curious

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:What models are you all using to make TWC?

Canis with conversions?

FYI...Canis (the actual marine) is all one peice and molded to the wolf, similar Archaon and his demonic steed, so go ahead and toss your conversion ideas out the window.

Considering various options. Maybe Rhinoxes, maybe cold ones or carnosaurs.

D&D Minis, Winter Wolves, Dire Wolves ect. For Proxies until I get a large Colection; for the TWC any Cav I run find in the closet and for the wolves a bunch of may Wolfen will work.

I am going to be modeling 13th co. wulfen models on the dreadnought base (2 models per base) with scenic bases to raise them up (to get the height profile)

10,000 year old mutated space marines with S5 T5? sure. I'll buy that.
the only stretch is the cavalry rules, but they are wulfen, so w/e

Demogerg wrote:I am going to be modeling 13th co. wulfen models on the dreadnought base (2 models per base) with scenic bases to raise them up (to get the height profile)

10,000 year old mutated space marines with S5 T5? sure. I'll buy that.
the only stretch is the cavalry rules, but they are wulfen, so w/e

lies! There is no 13th company.

whitedragon wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:What models are you all using to make TWC?

Canis with conversions?

FYI...Canis (the actual marine) is all one peice and molded to the wolf, similar Archaon and his demonic steed, so go ahead and toss your conversion ideas out the window.

I will buy Canis today and see what can be done.

There are 'unboxing' videos on youtube, take a look before you waste £25.

Lord-Loss wrote:There are 'unboxing' videos on youtube, take a look before you waste £25.

He looks nice. If I didn't have any skill with the green i wouldn't mind using him. But since I'm good at sculpting I think I'm going to make my own.

Redbeard wrote:

pguard36 wrote:

sourclams wrote:TH Cav will lose a fight to assault Terminators and many other primary assault-only units. Giving them sick amounts of equipment only inflates their cost.

I say one Thundershield, one Powerfist, and you're done. Use them as a fast, mobile disruption unit to kill objective sitters and backfield armor.

Trying to turn them into Assault Terminators will simply bloat your list and they still won't do that well.

Makes absolute sense.

Except - it's not true. As I found last night, giving the unit of TH Cav stormshields allowed them to run through 3 full units of DW terminators, with every member of those squad running either TH, PF or Claws, including the command squad with Belial, a standard (extra attack) and apothecary.

They actually fulfill the role of assault terminators pretty well once geared up - only super-fast assault terminators.

Deathwing Terminators are a pretty poor yardstick to compare against; 4+ Invul saves if you're using TH/SS and 5+ invul if not. By all means I may be wrong in my assessment but let's not use the most gimped Terminators in a head2head. Your Thundercav squad is going to cost roughly 450 points. Against 'basic' Assault Terminators you'll be facing down 10+. Likely your wolves will kill 2 outright due to initiative and another at I1 with the Thunderhammer when they charge, but the remaining 8 will do 3 wounds back, 4-5 if it's a Vulkan list. And any wounds taken will put those models at I1.

I don't doubt that 5 Thunderwolves sprinted through 3 squads of Deathwing without much issue because DW are slow footsloggers with 4-5+ invulns and small squad sizes make them very susceptible to the initial losses due to init, but against 7-8 Vulkan Terminators successfully charging from a Land Raider 80+ point models that hit on 4s and wound on 3s aren't going to beat 40 point models that hit on 4s and wound on 2s.

For the cost of one super squad I could take two three-man and four-man squads with a single SH/Chain Fist that are equally or more effective at killing troops and vehicles. Thus I say that more at cheaper is better than fewer at costlier. The unit is innately powerful enough to kick the teeth out of anything that isn't an ultra assault unit, and regardless of how it's equipped it'll lose out at equivalent points levels to anything that is an ultra assault unit.