Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

When the squad is "fearless", then a large unit that can pump out alot of attacks stands a really good chance of exploding the unit do to combat res. Examples include charging Berzerkers, Orks, and other extreme combat specialists.

10 Berzerkers, for example, do 14.81 wounds to that 50 man unit on the charge, and your 24 hidden power weapons only account for 4 wounds in return. Then you are swinging a bunch of S3 mooks that swinging back. I'm assuming there are 30 left after 14.81 casaulties and about 5-6 guys swinging those power weapon attacks. 30 attacks back on berzerkers only net you 1.6 additional wounds. So you're losing the combat, and if you're fearless you're taking another 5-6 casualties, and if you're not stubborn you're running.

Otherwise, you may get lucky and grind through the remaining berzerkers, but chances are you got slammed by some other nasty chaos unit, and you lost a whole turn of shooting/maneuvering because you have a huge footprint. Oh and those 'zerkers only cost 210 points, to your giant blob unit.

Since you're not in transports, I don't see how you'd be able to get the charge off on such a large squad of infantry ever.

It's a neat idea but I think the you really need to get some bang for your buck in the rest of your army to really make this big blob work.

Personally, I'd bring at least 2 Commissars for those rare times when you'd face someone who brings something that can single out specific models at range(Vindicares, Mind War)

whitedragon wrote:
Since you're not in transports, I don't see how you'd be able to get the charge off on such a large squad of infantry ever.

Na what you do is use the transports to block the enemy from assaulting you then they move out the way so you can assault them.

I don't think anyone is saying this is tournament a winning set up, but it is surprisingly effective and a lot of fun.

I charged 8 Bezerkers with Kharn with the super unit and wiped them out. Anecdotes don't make for statistical evidence, but in my experience, the only time the squad has been destroyed has been because yarrick died in combat and the squad got run down as a result of no longer being fearless.

Plus, if something nasty is coming your way, pump FRFSRF shots into it and take the charge. With Yarrick you get counter attack (or is that straken?).

Ok, for sake of argument or discussion, what else would you take with such an squad?? Let's say 1500pts?

I currently have a few guard concepts floating around my head and this type of unit seems really cool to me? Plus it sort of fits the theme I might try to build an army around.

Would Psyker battle squads fit? What about Rattlings? I like the idea of putting in priest with eviscerators! Wow now I have all sorts of things floating around my head.

Here's my final question, would Creed or Straken be better?

Thanks,
Chappy P!

I would accept the fact im gonna field a 40-50 strong group of fighting bodies and just field more bodies in the terms of shooting infantry platoons. Perhaps with 1-2 squads of H.bolter HWT's.

A couple devil dogs to deal with really hard infantry and AV14 tanks and a couple of valkyries/vendettas (either filled with melta vets or demo-SWS's). Cheap mobile armour. I know Im spending points on infantry so I want be able to over saturate the field with heavy armour targets, so they might aswell be fast, cheaper mobile types.

And with that in mind, creed in a chimera.

Those heavy weapon squad autocannons definitely should be inserted into regular squads in the platoon blob. Heavy weapon squads are just ridiculously bad in a number of ways and people who run them really should be drummed out of the Guard officer corps.

If you're running any sort of melee soup-up in your army (Strakken, Creed, etc) you should probably go ahead and take maxed out power weapons in your blobs. They'll be invaluable when fighting MEQs, wasted points when fighting orks, nid swarms, etc. If I'm running vanilla Company Command Squads I typically dont bother with the power weapons, preferring to buy more firepower with those points. Half the time when I do buy the power weapons the enemy never makes it into melee so they're wasted points anyway. It happens. If you know you're fighting say orks, then dont buy the power weapons... although list tailoring is a bit of a dick move in my opinion.

As others have pointed out, blob squads need to be stubborn. Fearless is very bad. No stubborn is even worse.

Yarrick is horribly overcosted for what he brings to the table, you'll probably want to leave him at home unless you're just playing a casual game. If you do bring him, absolutely do NOT put him into a blob squad since he'll make them fearless, which is a bad thing. Remember, you want stubborn only, not fearless.

With Ld9 (shoot-a-sergeant rerollable) vs pinning checks you shouldnt have much problem with pinning from stray sniper hits, pulse carbines, barrage weapons, etc. The Dark Eldar Horrorwhatsit is certainly bad news... but you dont see those very often and you can always use the "Get Back in the Fight" order to make your guys stand back up.

I experimented with taking Chekov with a platoon command squad and keeping it within 12" of both blobs (I usually run two 30 man ones) to give them Stubborn and not buying Commissars. I found it didnt work nearly as well, dropping the blobs to Ld8 (no rerolls) and the 5 man PCS was much easier to eliminate than commissars buried in blobs. "But he lets you do cool stuff with Conscripts too!" you say? Dont run conscripts. Theyre just horrible for their point value. Compare them to regular Guard squads for 1 point more. Does +3LD, +1 WS, +1 BS, options for heavy weapons, options for special weapons, ability to blob up, etc sound like it's worth 1 point? It is. If you must run conscripts dont waste even more points to give them Chenkov's "Send in the Next Wave" nonsense. If you're tempted, read the timing on that rule. If you like conscripts thematically (I do) then I think you'll find penal legion or regular blobs painted in prison garb will perform far better.

Shots were the shooter picks the victim are bad news for your commissars but very rare. It's just the Vindicare (who runs those?), Mind War, and Scout Sgt Whosisface, right? I really cant see justifying an extra 35 points per blob (45 if you're using power weapons) just for that relatively remote possibility. With the vindicare and scout sgt whosits, there is the roll to hit, wound, and cover save... any one of which if failed, it's not even a threat that turn.

Insofar as melee punch in an IG army, I've found there are only two options that are even remotely worth their points:

1> Strakken can make blob squads absolutely obscene, although there appears to be some controversy over if Strakken's furious charge works when counterassaulting. Even if it doesn't, he's probably still the best melee-oriented upgrade for an IG army. Compared to him, Creed isnt even a contender for melee options. Creed can order a furious charge, sure... but blob squads are big and unwieldy and will almost never be initiating charges themselves. Even if they are, theyre wasting a potential round of FRFSRF, which will almost certainly be more effective than the charge. Strakken lets them FRFSRF and still get the charge bonuses when theyre charged themselves. Also Strakken could kick Creed's ass, having a 3+ save, plasma pistol, S6 power weapon, etc.

2> Allied Grey Knights/Grey Knight Terminators. Amusingly, regular Grey Knights (but not Terminators according to new FAQ) can pull off a first turn assault in a Valkyrie if going first. If you pull this against a Necron player who hasnt seen it before, it's entirely possible to multi-unit-assault and force a phaseout before they get their first turn. IG Priests can join these squads (Valkyrie carries 12), which is amusing. "Scrubby IG chaplain wants to join us super-Marines in battle? Sure kid, you can be our mascot!" Mascot being basically what effect he has on the squad. They Grey Knights can't take advantage of IG orders system (new FAQ) but Strakken's counterassault/furious charge works on them just fine. Counterassault doesnt help them due to how True Grit works but the only thing better than I4 S6 Grey Knights is I5 S7 Grey Knights. Also, Grey Knights primary weakness (well, one of their primary weaknesses anyway) within their own codex is lack of mechanized transport. Valkyries or Chimeras purchased for your blob squad can solve that. "Hey IG pukes, you mind if we borrow your ride?" "Uh... no Sir, mr Grey Knight Sir... the keys are in the ignition."

Another amusing trick (funny but not even remotely worth it's points) is to put a Cullexus assassin within 12" of two Battle Psyker Squads so his badassed pistol AP2 pistol fires as assault 19. Maybe stick him in a spare Chimera for the ultimate in all drive-by shootings.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if you're worried about the HorrorblastoDarkEldar thingy, you might run a Sisters of Battle heroine with the Book of Saint Alwayscheckatleadership10. Whatever it's called.

Fun tricks with allied inquisitors:

Daemonhuners: 2+ mystics to shoot hell out of things as they deep strike. Imperial Tarot to give slightly better odds of going first.

Witch-hunters: Book of "I always choose my deployment zone". Better psychic powers (one of which forces enemy unit to check morale as if they had taken 25% casualties... team up with PBS for much fun).

Both: Old school unlimited range psychic hood (awesome vs eldar, CSM, assorted enemy psykers). Unlocks assassins (who are honestly not worth their points most of the time). Can be a nasty little plasma-shooting squad if you buy them that way.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I saw this type of combined unit in action this past weekend at an Indy GT... the first time I noticed it was versus a good SW player (old codex) and I was shocked to see how well it did. The next game was versus Chaos Space Marines and it did a number on them as well. I don't think you need 50 models as has been previously pointed out. It's a very strong unit. I think the best way to counter it is attack with a walker or just shoot it to death. It's a great unit for IG.

G

My friend's and i play casually, and one of our IG players loves the big mob of future corpses. I think its great- its fun to play with, against, and it works decently well to have a competetive match. Things I've noticed that they don't like is templates/blasts/pie plates, pinning and shooting. They don't like getting shot, but if the rest of your army doesn't like getting shot, its a good meatshield

Oh yeah, Fzorgle and the 50 guardsmen is hilarious... "Lets all hug each other in front of those ordanance weapons! yaaay!"

Green Blow Fly wrote:I saw this type of combined unit in action this past weekend at an Indy GT... the first time I noticed it was versus a good SW player (old codex) and I was shocked to see how well it did. The next game was versus Chaos Space Marines and it did a number on them as well. I don't think you need 50 models as has been previously pointed out. It's a very strong unit. I think the best way to counter it is attack with a walker or just shoot it to death. It's a great unit for IG.

G

Hehehehehehe, I think it surprised them as well . I was the IG player mentioned. The SW player managed to get every walking unit he had into hth, and the only one that survived was the venerable Dread. No arms left, but it lived.
Against the CSM player he got a top of turn two charge into a blob with his winged Daemon Prince. I needed 5s to hit, 6s to wound, and yet the only reason he lived is that he made 5 Inv saves. The combat finally ended on the bottom of turn 5 when some berserkers and termies came over and joined in.
I was using 3 squads, heavy and special weapon in each squad, power weapons and meltabombs on the sgts and a commissar with a power weapon. I've found 30 to be about the right size, enough to hang in there and take casualties but not so many that it gets too unwieldy. Having 12 invisible power weapon attacks when they assault can come as quite a shock for those assaulty MEQ units that are used to relying on their 3+ saves, and termies purely hate them. The meltas, well, I added them after three or four games in a row where shooting failed me and ven/ironclad/regular dreads, defilers, soulgrinders got into hth. Since then, all those have died to my meltas, as well as outflanking squadron of warwalkers, a valkyrie, Land Raiders, and other misc vehicles. I consider them a must have anymore, and it's not hard to find 15 points per platoon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ivan wrote:

Witch-hunters: Book of "I always choose my deployment zone". Better psychic powers (one of which forces enemy unit to check morale as if they had taken 25% casualties... team up with PBS for much fun).
.

The Liber Heresius has no game effect in the main rulebook standard scenarios, per the WH FAQ

I was at a store that normally didn't do 40k but one of the guys was playing a 250 man + army.

3 50 man squads w/ 1 Commissar and Creed then just a bunch of other stuff and cheap ass Leman Russes.


The game lasted to turn 2 versus a Space Marine drop army.


It was hilariously one sided in the IG favor.

he just ran forward with his 50 guys giving move move move to maximize then moved up and did first rank fire second rank fire.


It was pretty much over after that.

Rough riders are another good CC and "future corpse" unit, but I will not use them together with commisars and blob squads as it becomes redundant..

Speaking of blob squadsi see that most tend to run 3 as a minimum. Has anyone have success with just 2 squads (with or without commisars). There maybe times when firing 3 sets of lasguns, HW and SW becomes redundant. In other words, maybe with blob squads of 2 you can shoot more targets?
Another reason is that 2 squads are the minimum per platoon, and I personally love the platoon command squad in chimeras with special weapons. so that instead of 2 platoons with 3 squads each (blobbed) and 2 pcs, you can have 3 platoons of 2 squads each, and 3 command squads.

I've found 20 doesnt quite give enough firepower. Also easier to force enough wounds on the grunts to get through to the SW/HW/Sgts/Commissar. Also you're paying a 35 point tax per extra blob in the form of a commissar.

If you want the weapons from a PCS, perhaps run Vets or SWS in a Chimera instead.

twomas rox wrote:I have used 3 combined squads and a commissar. With 4 power weapons, and a thrown in melta and flamer. I have had great results.

except when my commissar takes out one of my power weapon wielding sergants.

rofl, I was just thinking that....

I love the idea though, awesomely fluffy

I can't believe no one mentioned adding Al'rahem and Creed to give you 50 guardsman furious charge and outflank.

Talk about fun times.

Don't even need Al Rahim, Creed can give one unit (say a merged squad) Scouts, allowing them to outflank. Course, every time I've used it they came in on the wrong side of the table. Two chances out of three to get what I need, and always the wrong side!
The plus with Al Rahim is that all their chimeras and any other units in the platoon also outflank.

Well you put in an astropath (or w/e) so you can reroll the side they come in on. And +1 to reserve rolls.

50 Outflanking furious charging stubborn guardsman arriving turn 2-3 on whichever side you want is pretty hilarious.

Also, maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't al'rahem give them pseudo fleet?

Timmah wrote:Well you put in an astropath (or w/e) so you can reroll the side they come in on. And +1 to reserve rolls.

50 Outflanking furious charging stubborn guardsman arriving turn 2-3 on whichever side you want is pretty hilarious.

Also, maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't al'rahem give them pseudo fleet?

Problem I've run into with the astropath is when playing against a riposte army, ie an army that starts everything in reserves. They make me go first, my outflank shows up on turn two before they have anything on the table. But yeah, it does work sometimes................

Kinda sorta. The 'move like the wind' or some such, allows them to run after shooting. So they can move up, double tap, and then try to run back out of assault range.

One unit yes, if the order is passed

Creed and Al Rahim along with 2 50 man blob squad w/ 6 chimeras w/ like h. flamers outflanking would be hilarious.


Don't forget Alrahims ability to give that 50 man unit to run then shoot.


Thats also not very expensive at all.