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willydstyle wrote:When the IC is with a unit, then they take tests for acts of faith as normal: roll against unit size.

The litanies specifically say that the character can use an act of faith without rolling.

Right, in this case, she can use an act of faith without rolling against squad size. Squad doesnt roll, faith goes off. Character is part of the squad, therefore uses the act of faith. (along with the squad)

While the character is with a unit it's not the character that does the rolling.

If this is your basis for why litanies doesnt work in a unit....its pretty thin. Good luck convincing a sisters player.

I beleive this would be possibly the ONLY peice of wargear in the entire game that you wouldnt be able to use while attached to a squad....which doesnt really make much sense either. Just because you attach to a squad all of a sudden you lose the ability to use a pricey one-shot peice of wargear? There isnt even a game-breaking effect by using it within a squad. In fact, its probably the ONLY way possible to actually get 25 pts worth of "effect" out of it.

willydstyle wrote:When the IC is with a unit, then they take tests for acts of faith as normal: roll against unit size.

The litanies specifically say that the character can use an act of faith without rolling.

While the character is with a unit it's not the character that does the rolling.

Not sure what you are trying to say (?)

WH Codex Pg 18: "Faithful Independant Charactors may use Acts of Faith while operating independantly or if they have joined a unit with the Adeptas Sororitas special rule..." What is ambiguouse about that?

I agree with Trogdor. "Would you mind elaborating on what a decent Celestian unit would be and what the Canoness in the Retinue would be equipped with? "

I like adding the priest idea. I have never used the Mantle before.

Decent Celestian unit;

On the cheap-

5 sisters, melta, Flamer, mounted in HFlamer Immo. For HtH combat, charge beatstick "power weapon" units and go invulnerable at will with faith. Nice tarpit for a turn or two.

Pricey-

8 girls, Veteran for extra faith with Evicerator, Preist with Eviscerator, Cannoness with Eviscerator to taste, mounted in Rhino. 3+ to hit anything in CC (with exceptions), WITH rerolls on the charge.

Anything in between is workable.


When Running my Celestians, I prefer them to be able to handle any threat...so I tend to go the Melta/HF route for weapon options. If you've ever wasted points on Seraphim...try Celestians instead. They're probably the best that SoB have to offer. Wonderfly useful unit.

Hmmz, i disagree that seraphim are a waste of points.

I regularly run them in a 1500+ list and have never had a bad game with them. They are the best/only SoB unit for fast counter assaults; put a canoness with eviscerator in with them and they can chew through almost and specialist hth unit in the game. I do think they are over-costed for what they do, but they give me a bit more flexibility with the rest of my army which i can't get anywhere else. i.e. i don't worry too much about one of my regular units getting assaulted as the Seraphim+HQ are only one turn away from coming to help out. As long as i'm not daft with what i try to shoot up in the first place (10 man chaos termie squads for example) the seraphim are great for mopping/tying up whats left.

We could go "Seraphim, Yay or Nay" all day long....its been done before...many a time.

It's good that you can use them well, but that doesnt mean that they're a good unit. You yourself say that they're overcosted.

Sisters have so many ways to use the units that they DO have that are price efficient. I cannot see any reason to use costly seraphim for things that other units do better.

Seraphim arent faster than mounted troops....unless you're trying to stretch an assault distance. Problem with this is that the Sisters are generally NOT an assault army. They're a close range "drive-by" army.

If you could put a priest in a Seraphim unit, I might change my tune. Units stacked with eviscerators and a preist are TERRIBLY deadly in HtH...the lack of the priest and the high pt cost of Seraphim make them not really worth it. Not for a unit that people generally try to go HtH with. The preist and multiple eviscerators backed up by faith is how you get solid HtH out of the sisters army. It's the best way to do it. Seraphim cannot sport all the tools they need to be an effective sisters HtH unit.

With just a little bit of foresight, you can have a unit of celestians do the job of the Seraphim better than they can. Try to predict where your opponent will be, move the loaded rhino in the general vicinity, then charge out of the rhino next turn. You may not be able to plug an emergency hole like the Seraphim's jump packs allow you to do, but other units in the sisters army can do anything ELSE that the seraphim can do....better AND for less points.

Just my opinion. People may like to use them for fluff and/or just liking the unit. I understand that....I've got an entire Grey Knight army that I've played competetivly with much success. I would never claim that the army is good though....its all generalship. If you do well with Seraphim it isnt because the unit is good (because it isnt in comparison to the rest of sisters units), if you do well with Seraphim, thats simply a tribute to your generalship.

@DeadShane1, you seem you have quite a handle on the Witchhunters, is there anyway you'd mind posting a list for 1000pts? Just sisters if you can, Im probably going to be playing Cities of Death for awhile too, so that might make the list a little different than usual.

Thanks!
T-

My Sisters are all in Rhinos, except for one squad of Dominions in an Immolator.

When it comes to close combat, the best advice I can offer is "don't." Sisters aren't terrible in CC, but they're absolutely nothing special, and it's simply not worth the points to make them.

To me, they're a rare case where a Plasma Pistol is more worthwhile than a Power Weapon, at least when they're doing a Rhino "drive up, jump out, shoot" sort of tactic. I gave most of my Superiors Power Weapons, but I've never really gotten much out of them.

An Eviscerator is a lot more useful, provides the same value that a Power Fist does. It's nice to have one or two around, to give to units you expect to run into bad spots.

All that aside, as I said, don't get into CC. Obviously this isn't always possible, especially against a good opponent, but my point is to not bother building your list to win close combats. Instead, build your list around the strengths of the Sisters (shooting, using Divine Guideance), and then play to avoid CC.

The other day I played against Daemons, and while the other guy didn't play the strongest game, I managed to shoot down a Lord of Change, Bloodthirster, and two Daemon Princes, all before they could get into CC with my Sisters. This was only possible because he brought them in piecemeal, which allowed me to focus fire on each one at a time, but that's pretty much how you want to play things... Find lone units, use transport speed to jump on them, and wipe them out completely before they can charge you.

If you're going to get into CC, do it on your terms. I gave up my Dominions (to a squad of Bloodletters), in order to knock two wounds off his Bloodthirster, and also to draw them away from an objective. If you're going to let CC happen, do it in a place that furthers the mission, and understand you're totally giving up the unit. Let them go die, so everyone else can reposition.

Use the Invulnerable save Act of Faith to cause assaults to end on his turn. Don't just use it out of sentimental attachment to a Sisters squad. If they're fighting anything but Guardsmen, they'll probably lose. Just make sure to do it in his turn, so you can blow away what's left.

I will try using celestians at some point, they look like a great unit on paper and, with what has been put forward in this thread, definitely worth a go.

I'm sure we could drag the Seraphim argument on for ever and ever but, as Deadshane has so succinctly put it; they either suit your army/style of play or they don't but they're still overcosted. well put sir


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Trogdor: There have been a couple of posts in this thread already for 1000pt armies. You should have also seen from the way this thread has gone that even us experienced players can't agree on what is best, it comes down to how you use your army. Experimenting and coming up with things on your own is one of the best things about the hobby, sure internet CC lists can start you off but they are designed by other people for their own styles of play.

In short; mess around! Losing a game can often teach you a heck of a lot more about the units you picked and the tactics you used than winning can.

Edited for hangover tremens :S

I will try using celestians at some point, they look like a great unit on paper and, with what has been put forward in this thread, definitely worth a go.

I run 9 of them with my Cannoness, all in a Rhino. I haven't changed the list yet, but I think I'd rather they were just normal Battle Sisters.

Battle Sisters are cheaper, no less effective in shooting, and they're a Troops choice. Celestians still aren't good enough to win combats. S3 just doesn't cut it.

willydstyle wrote:
Using faith to give your girls Str 5 means that a lot of the time they can win combat against non-elite units in CC.

The only issue I have with this is that most units you can't beat handily in melee are going to be swinging first and still wounding you on 3's. Basically SM, CSM, Orks and maybe Necrons. So you spend a faith, swing second, get hit on 3's, wounded on 3's, save on 3's, then you get to attack back, hit on 4's, wound on 3's, and your opponant saves on 3's. (6 for orks). The problem I see is that you are going to lose enough bodies that you can not likely make up for it unless you have a way to put some wounds through the armor.
The other advantage in the eviscerator is that you become Str8 with it after that act of faith, and so can insta kill CSM lords and the like.

Now, at 1000 points eviscerators might not be worth it. But I still don't like tossing faith to allow Sisters to assault decently (at A2 Str 5) instead of standing and shooting, and blowing a faith to soak a MEQ charge at A1 Str 5 I1 is a little questionable I think.

Well, the thing is Eldar are both great at shooting and assault. If the person you are playing has dark reapers, try killing them first with some kind of orbital strike or something that you wont need line of sight in. Also, you can use space marines as your ally. That will help a ton! If you do that, you will be able to get the chapter master which can orbital strike anywhere on the map without line of sight.

REPLY

fofomajor wrote:
REPLY

ok...

Not to be mean, but pretty much ignore everything Fofo said.

SM can't be taken as allies for SoB and Orbital Barrage is a horrible tactic to take out Dark Reapers or really pretty much anything.

Celestians have one great additional benefit. They don't have to come in groups of 10. If you want a unit for the Cannoness to ride with, or a pair of special weapons and don't much care if they survive past the first shot, a min sized Celestian unit is much cheaper than a Sisters squad. There's a post in another Sisters thread by me that totals up point cost differences and the pro/con split if you want to search for it.

I like Jump Pack Cannonesses. They are a threat against a lot of units most other things can't tarpit due to 2+ invulnerable saves. A walking or mech Cannoness isn't nearly so threatening due to the smaller charge range. Few people are going to let you drive up with a Cannoness in a Rhino and not move out of charge range on their turn unless they really want to shoot/not move. Getting them delivered intact is a lot harder these days.

YES THEY CAN BE ALLIES

fofomajor wrote:YES THEY CAN BE ALLIES

In order for sisters and marines to be fighting in the same force, the sisters must be the ones taken as allies. This means the choice of units from the WH codex is limited to 1 HQ, 2 Troops, 1 Elite and 1 Fast Attack.

Adding on to the original intent. I find that in many cases, Sisters are a 'He who bails, fails' army.

Unless you have a VERY specific, isolated target, you want to stay in your transport and use your two specials every turn. (Bonus points for firing the meltagun/HF at a big vehicle with troops deployed as a 'screen' in front. You kill two birds with one stone and teach the other player not to leave screens that close to their vehicles.)

Once you're isolated something and can be sure of yourself, that's a great time to bail out of the vehicle and gun them down.

Otherwise you torrent one unit and then eat a charge / ton of shooting from something else.

Pretre has neatly encapsulated how a SoB army works: Counter attack.

Taking the fight to the enemy will almost always land you in bother, you need to learn to react to your opponents movements, namely by having your units in a position to support each other. SoB are hard to use as an Alpha Strike army; one turn of bad rolling and you will find find half your points being chewed up.

I don't want to re-open the argument, but Seraphim are an excellent way to link disparate units together and give your opponent something else to worry about. If they have strong assault options, they will not want to be left in the open with flame templates headed their way. If they have good shooting, they will fear the fast assault.

Going back OT. SoB should never be in an assault unless you are sacrificing a unit for positional gain. True, there are some options you can take that are great at assault, but that is not playing to the strengths of the army. Stick with the short range shooting, and use whatever works for you to smooth out the process... seraphim/celestians/flying-nuns etc....

Edit: Ignore fofo. 4chan holiday season has started

Lots of regular sisters squads with VSS in rhinos at 1000 pts regular game, low points like this is not our strong point because our points cost has not changed much since 3rd ED. but our basic troops are still decently priced 3+ saves...so drown him in them.

Wall off any units that get to close with rhinos and shoot them with multiple squads.

2-3 BSS should be combining their fire every time you shoot.

Books of St. Lucius make sure your sisters hold the line when assaulted, make sure there is another BS squad, or seraphims or a canoness nearby to counter assault. If its an actual assault unit hitting you, the best bet is to increase your initiative so you kill off some of their powerweapons before they hit you, as you usually won't have invulnerable save in the initial assalt. the test must be taken at the beginning of the phase.

YES THEY CAN BE ALLIES ?
"pg 25 wh codex. Allied Space marines may not be used if and Adepta Soritas units are preasent."

If I am correct this bad rule works ilke this.
In a SoB army, Marines Can't be used. If using Space marine force Then Sob can be used as Allies.
No wonder people have problems with rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If a IC joins a unit or has a retnue. The faith test is made from the group. Under/over number in unit. OR does the IC roll vs. LD for the whole unit. It is difficult rolling Over the number, with large units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1000 pt armies posted would be nice. I only seen 2 postings. One of them is mine. Which means the it sucks I dropped the Retributor Squad X5 (55), 2 X Multi Meltas for Heavy bolters. Everyone says how Retributor Squad suck. bring a exorcist instead. In smaller games vehicles don't last long.( I shoot the heck out of their vehicles). I have had lots of good luck with heavy bolter Retributor Squad, No good from the multimelta units. My 1850 pt list has 3 Exorcists.

YES THEY CAN BE ALLIES ?
"pg 25 wh codex. Allied Space marines may not be used if and Adepta Soritas units are preasent."

If I am correct this bad rule works ilke this.
In a SoB army, Marines Can't be used. If using Space marine force Then Sob can be used as Allies.
No wonder people have problems with rules.