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Stelek's list is good, but I've seen better.

This is my 2000pts space wolves list (Count as World Eaters)

Wolf Lord: [205]: TH/SS, Thunderwolf Mount

3x Wolf Guard Terminators: [99] (Goes with Long Fangs)

3x Thunder Wolf Calvary: [180]: Thunder Hammer
4x Thunder Wolf Calvary: [230]: Thunder Hammer
4x Thunder Wolf Calvary: [230]: Thunder Hammer

10x Grey Hunters: [190]: 2x meltagun, Rhino
10x Grey Hunters: [190]: 2x meltagun, Rhino
10x Grey Hunters: [190]: 2x meltagun, Rhino

6x Long Fangs: [165]: 3x Missile Launcher, Lascannon, Heavy bolter
6x Long Fangs: [165]: 3x Missile Launcher, Lascannon, Heavy bolter
6x Long Fangs: [165]: 3x Missile Launcher, Lascannon, Heavy bolter

A nice/tight list there Lord-Loss, but pretty annoyed at Dawn of War when it rolls up.

Otherwise, very strong, but not very flexible/slow.

There seems to be a theme of unavailable models being quite prominent -Thunderwolf cavalry, Bike HQ (not chaplain) etc.
I wonder if it just has to do with the fact that perhaps their rarity of use just leads many opponenets to not know about their working, or if they genuinly are that good -it's probably a bit of both

Lord-Loss wrote:Stelek's list is good, but I've seen better.

This is my 2000pts space wolves list (Count as World Eaters)

Wolf Lord: [205]: TH/SS, Thunderwolf Mount

3x Wolf Guard Terminators: [99] (Goes with Long Fangs)

3x Thunder Wolf Calvary: [180]: Thunder Hammer
4x Thunder Wolf Calvary: [230]: Thunder Hammer
4x Thunder Wolf Calvary: [230]: Thunder Hammer

10x Grey Hunters: [190]: 2x meltagun, Rhino
10x Grey Hunters: [190]: 2x meltagun, Rhino
10x Grey Hunters: [190]: 2x meltagun, Rhino

6x Long Fangs: [165]: 3x Missile Launcher, Lascannon, Heavy bolter
6x Long Fangs: [165]: 3x Missile Launcher, Lascannon, Heavy bolter
6x Long Fangs: [165]: 3x Missile Launcher, Lascannon, Heavy bolter

Outflankers like Genestealers can make your day.
On the one hand, you have to defend your LF's, and on the other hand, you eventually need to go for mission objectives.
This eventually divides your army into two parts which can be bad.

wuestenfux wrote:Really?
Two troop units at the 2000 pt level is a bit too less.

It's three. Combat squad the larger unit. Why is everyone obsessed with having 4+ Troop choices?

cptjoeyg wrote:That is not a bike list. So no credit.

Not biting.

adielubbe wrote:I am a forum noob.
Now that's said, may i ask who Stelek is, and why there seems to be so much Dakka drama regarding him?

Stelek is the owner of the YTTH Blog, a former member of Dakka. There shouldn't be "drama" so to speak nowerdays, he left some time ago. People just have very mixed views about him and alot appear to have a sour taste in their mouth because he tells it like it is.

I just don't like it when people steal his lists and post them on here as if it's their own work.

In regards of the topic, I've only ever really played with a Salamanders' lists. In my opinion they are very strong, however lack long range fire power.

EDIT: The list I play.

HQ:

Vulkan
Terminator Librarian - Null Zone/Gate of Infinity

Elite:

10x Assault Terminator - TH/SS
mounted in Land Raider Crusader - MM

Troop:

10x Tac Marine - Flamer/Missile Launcher - Rhino - Sgt. Powerfist/Meltabombs
10x Tac Marine - Flamer/Missile Launcher - Rhino - Sgt. Powerfist/Meltabombs

Fast Attack:

2x Land Speeder - MM/HF
2x Land Speeder - MM/HF

Heavy Support:

Land Raider Crusader - MM

Total Roster Cost: 2000 pts

Vulkan rides in one LR with 5 Terminators and the Librarian in the other with the second 5 Terminators. Land Speeders follow the LR's up the board using them as moving cover to get close. Tactical Squads are Combat Squadded leaving Missile Launchers on an objective to pop-shots at enemy armour, whilst others tank hunt with the Powerfist/Meltabomb Sergeants.

Vulkan
Terminator Librarian - Null Zone/Gate of Infinity

Elite:

10x Assault Terminator - TH/SS
mounted in Land Raider Crusader - MM

Troop:

10x Tac Marine - Flamer/Missile Launcher - Rhino - Sgt. Powerfist/Meltabombs
10x Tac Marine - Flamer/Missile Launcher - Rhino - Sgt. Powerfist/Meltabombs

Fast Attack:

2x Land Speeder - MM/HF
2x Land Speeder - MM/HF

Heavy Support:

Land Raider Crusader - MM

Total Roster Cost: 2000 pts

A successful list? Looks a bit small.

A very shooty army might pop your LR's in the first round
before they delivered their payload.
Then the army is screwed.
This happened to me in 1750 pt games vs Tau.

I tried out a few lists like that on Vassal and the problem is that people will just shoot your Landraiders to death, or sacrifice a unit to kill the landraider with meltaguns, which means there just ignore your TH/SS termies.

I added some vindicators, but it still didnt work.

Lord-Loss wrote:I tried out a few lists like that on Vassal and the problem is that people will just shoot your Landraiders to death, or sacrifice a unit to kill the landraider with meltaguns, which means there just ignore your TH/SS termies.

I added some vindicators, but it still didnt work.

Landraiders are very popular these days.
It appeared that at the recent GT final, almost all SM or CSM armies had at least one LR-pattern tank.
But they eventually go down early in the game (railguns, lascannons or meltas)
and then your plans are disrupted.

@Merevale:

3 ‘Main’ Bodied Troops are a sort of minimum for roughly 1500+ lists.
I follow the simple (not really concrete) formula of:
1 squad will die.
1 squad won’t make it.
1 squad will be on the objective.
Then the rest of the list is made to contest in anticipation of only one objective.

Now… combat squadding is cool and flexible, BUT, it’s not all good.
You now have 2 not so big squads, if deployed in 2 areas or both are in different parts of the board: sure you can hold more objectives, but you are twice as easy to get kicked off of it.

Troops are the backbone to almost all of the 40K armies… if not, then it should be.
SM are pretty much all about supporting each other.
It’s not like Eldar that need specialists to do a single job, but that they are mostly all generalists and need to pool resources together to do anything really well.

Tactical squads offer the army bodies, flexible weapon loadout, and deployment options. I view Combat Squadding as a ‘bonus’ and not something to rely on to get more scoring units.

As to the list:

Vulkan: decent.
Libby: Null is nice, but I’m meh about him in general.
2 Squads of 5 termies are ok, though even with Vulkan, there is utility in having 1-2 claw termies.
I think the LRC’s need extra armor… no use in allowing the opponent to breath a little easy with that 1/6 of a chance on glances to make the LR stop.

Tacticals: low for 1500, even lower for 2000. There are armies that can deal/stall/ignore the 2 LRC’s and go for the squishier stuff…and 20 MEQ’s shouldn’t be a huge deal at 2000.

Speeders are meh. They are good in a Vulkan list, but I’ve never liked that kind of loadout.

@Wustenfux:
You seem very carefree over here in Dakka…you seem always……..jolly……if that’s the word to describe it…heh.

wuestenfux wrote:A successful list? Looks a bit small.

A very shooty army might pop your LR's in the first round
before they delivered their payload.
Then the army is screwed.
This happened to me in 1750 pt games vs Tau.

Might? Anything might happen. Any army can have their key unit destroyed in the first turn, that's just how the game works. The Land Raiders are key, yes, but they aren't the be all and end all. Both sides of the board have shooting phases in the first turn, you know?

Yes this list is has very few boots on the ground, but from my experience, I never need it. People who focus on making sure they have enough troops to survive the onslaught of heavy weapons blasting their scoring units off the board hardly have any space in their list to bring the guns that matter. I've neutralised some troop heavy lists big guns by the end of turn 2 with this list, after that it feels like cutting off a guys arms and expecting a fair fight from him.

Still, you have 2 uber units, both in transports that the meta-game generally gears towards to stop (mainly melta spam).
Those 2 ‘targets’ can’t be everywhere and are easy deal with.

Having 2 main threats can be a bad thing as the opponent’s target priorities are easy to resolve.

Both sides do have shooting, but the list you proposed doesn’t do much of that first turn. A vulkan list is a close range shooting/hammer-time army.

‘Fair’ has different meanings… if the guy with his arms cut off specializes in Machine Gun Leg Fu…

@Wustenfux:
You seem very carefree over here in Dakka…you seem always……..jolly……if that’s the word to describe it…heh.

Yeah.
Sometimes things get funny when people post comments that are not very helpful game-wise.

Sanctjud wrote:Still, you have 2 uber units, both in transports that the meta-game generally gears towards to stop (mainly melta spam).
Those 2 ‘targets’ can’t be everywhere and are easy deal with.

Having 2 main threats can be a bad thing as the opponent’s target priorities are easy to resolve.

Both sides do have shooting, but the list you proposed doesn’t do much of that first turn. A vulkan list is a close range shooting/hammer-time army.

I agree with you. I was just throwing in my list that I've had relative success with to beef the thread out a little more. I never claimed to be an all defeating masterhammer, just trying to throw different theories into Dakka to get people thinking. It'll become a very boring place if everyone ends up saying "you do a to beat b".

Sanctjud wrote:‘Fair’ has different meanings… if the guy with his arms cut off specializes in Machine Gun Leg Fu…

Just made my signature.

I agree with you. I was just throwing in my list that I've had relative success with to beef the thread out a little more. I never claimed to be an all defeating masterhammer, just trying to throw different theories into Dakka to get people thinking. It'll become a very boring place if everyone ends up saying "you do a to beat b".

That's really good to hear.
People often make an issue out of it when their lists are criticized.

wuestenfux wrote:

I agree with you. I was just throwing in my list that I've had relative success with to beef the thread out a little more. I never claimed to be an all defeating masterhammer, just trying to throw different theories into Dakka to get people thinking. It'll become a very boring place if everyone ends up saying "you do a to beat b".

That's really good to hear.
People often make an issue out of it when their lists are criticized.

Double Agree.

I've been running the list below for a bit and am really enjoying how it plays.
Not played it in any tournaments yet but I will enter it in some this year.

I built it so that it can:
put out a lot of shots (2x Thunderfire + 20x Assault Cannon shots)
is fairly mobile (5x transports)
can be very effective in HTH (20x TH attacks from 5x termies)
can deal with hordes (10x SBT + 5x Mobile flamer templates)

HQ
Kantor

TROOPS
10x Tac w/ PW, Melta, Missile Launcher
1x Razor w/ TL AC

10x Tac w/ PW, Melta, Missile Launcher
1x Razor w/ TL AC

ELITES
5x Stern w/ Combi-Flamer
1x Razor w/ TL AC

5x Assault Termies w/ TH + SS
1x Land Raider Redeemer w/ MM

5x Assault Termies w/ TH + SS

HEAVY
1x Thunderfire

1x Thunderfire

1x Land Raider Redeemer w/ MM

2000pts
15 KP
45x Models
5x Scoring units
5x TL Assault Cannons
2x Melta
2x Multi-Melta
2x Missile Launcher
8x Thunderfire shots
4x Flamestorm
3x Flamer

I have yet to play it against horde IG, which I think will have enough lascannons to put a hurt on it before I get to fire, but so far it has done well against: Tau(4x Railguns), Bugs, Marines

Any way... rip it a new one!

This list looks quite good.

As somebody mentioned Stelek, one of his first SM armies consisted of 2 full Sternguard units with combi-meltas,
led by Librarians with gate and mounted in Drop Pods with locator beacons.
Its a point sink, but allows some nasty tactics.

Thanks for the compliment!
It's definitely not perfect but so far it's been effective and I've enjoyed playing it. That it plays competitively against a good range of opponents (5x AC for Mech, Templates for Hordes) made me want to put it out there.

Surprisingly enough the Thunderfires draw tons of hate, but for 100pts it doesn't really effect my game plan too much. Though left alone they're great at what they do.

I remember the list you've mentioned. It definitely was a very different marine list and surprisingly very mobile with Gate.

I've also play this and have had good success.

Space Marine Captain on Bike
Relic Blade 160

Troops
5 man bike w/ plasma , meltabomb, powerweapon 190

5 man bike w/ 2 plasma , meltabomb powerweapon 190

4 man bike w/ attack bike , 2 meltaguns , powerfist, 210

4 man bike w/ attack bike , 2 meltagun , powerfist 210

F. Attack
5 man Scout w/ powerfist, meltabom w/ 3 astartes 170

5man scout w/ powerfist, meltabom w/ 3 astartes 170

This is my "base" 1200 points

A space marine scout bike squad w/
5 Members
Powerfist
Meltaboms
3 Astartes (PS you can give one to the SGT who has BS4)

Is only 170 points yeah; hope you like harrassement.

For 300 points;

Throw in a Command Squad kitted out or

1 Drop Pod w/ Iron Clad

Then add more bikers

or

5 Sternguard w/ Combimeltas and drop pod add more bikers



Scout Bikers are a incredible unit and more people should take them.

Hollismason wrote:
Scout Bikers are a incredible unit and more people should take them.

QFT
The only struggle is finding lists which they work well in

I've also play this and have had good success.

Space Marine Captain on Bike
Relic Blade 160

Troops
5 man bike w/ plasma , meltabomb, powerweapon 190

5 man bike w/ 2 plasma , meltabomb powerweapon 190

4 man bike w/ attack bike , 2 meltaguns , powerfist, 210

4 man bike w/ attack bike , 2 meltagun , powerfist 210

F. Attack
5 man Scout w/ powerfist, meltabom w/ 3 astartes 170

5man scout w/ powerfist, meltabom w/ 3 astartes 170

This is my "base" 1200 points

A space marine scout bike squad w/
5 Members
Powerfist
Meltaboms
3 Astartes (PS you can give one to the SGT who has BS4)

Is only 170 points yeah; hope you like harrassement.

For 300 points;

Throw in a Command Squad kitted out or

1 Drop Pod w/ Iron Clad

Then add more bikers

or

5 Sternguard w/ Combimeltas and drop pod add more bikers



Scout Bikers are a incredible unit and more people should take them.

My only issues with scout bikers are:
-Don't score.
-More Ap4 cover ignoring weapons these days.
-Limited Synergy.
-Generally a 'One Trick Pony' in terms of early game offensive.
-No normal special weapons, Astartes Grenade Launcher is a meh weapon...and really only decent against hordes if they are tighly packed.

I play a pure bike list... and for some reason they just don't mesh...nor do their abilities really interest me.../shrug.

I don't know what your tactics are for them but here are some points to remember.

With bike lists you can take the first turn.

Scout bikes specifically.

The SGT can take an astartes launcher now you have a launcher that is BS4.


They are really good for destroying vehicles the set up I posted is prett keen on this.

When you charge a vehicle on the first turn you hit automatically as it has not moved.

You can devastate imperial guard as you can charge multiple vehicles and its fairly easy to do with bikes.


GANG UP

Charging one unit is awesome when you do it with 2 powerfists and 12 STR6 shots.

Go for the big guys ; Anythin T7 or less will be annoyed especially when you beat it about the head and shoulds with 6 ST6 shots before charging it.

This will kill most Daemon Princes.


Choose to ouflank if you have not got a good first turn kill.

Use their turbo booost to give cover saves to the squads behind them.

I've never not gotten my points back.


Also with their move its fairly easy to get behind dreadnoughts / rear armour.

The point is that they have to be used appropriately and with precision.


Another great unit that backs them up really well is a Scout Squad w/ a Powerfist along with a Storm. Take one drop pod with a Ironclad in it. Make your opponent be pissed as hell


2 Scout bike squads w/ that set up
1 Ironclad w/ Drop Pod

Merevale wrote:

Could we give credit where credit is due, please? That's Stelek's Best of Bikers list.

You are correct on that one. I actually forgot to put the link in there, shame on me . I actually do run the list thought and that's probably why it slipped my mind. I actually LOVE it because of the Mobile Troops and most people take 1-3 meltaguns (IF ANY!) in my shop (I haven't taught them 5E fu yet) so it absolutely devastates everyone.

I think that Scout Bikers are cool, but my problem with them is twofold:

1. They can't become troops.
2. Other things can do it better.

Scout Bikers - 125
2x; 2x Astartes Grenade Launchers; Sergeant; Power Fist; Astartes Grenade Launcher

For 125 points I could get Two MM Attack Bikes, Rifleman Dread, 2x MM Landspeeders, etc...

I really want to like this unit, but they just kinda are a letdown. Honestly if I wanted a scout tank-buster I would go with the 5x Suicide Scouts in the Suicide LSS. (Sarg has Combi-Melta + MB and LSS has a MM).

Now, I can see their uses with Scouting and Infiltrating (O how I love Ravenwing), but if you don't need either...

@ paidenfull - Sorry if this is unwanted or unneeded but I just thought i'd chip in!

Your list actually isn't bad. I only have a couple suggestions...

With the Tac Marines, Missile Launcher --> Lascannon and PW --> Meltabombs + Combi-Melta. This is a MASSIVE help due to the extra melta shot and you got a little tankbusting if needed. Truthfully a PW won't save the day if this unit assault or gets assaulted. The ML to Las is just because you lack some ranged anti-tank.

The Sternguard need Combi-Meltas!

This is personal, but I think you would be better off swapping a LRR for a LRC just because of the shooting vs. template capability.

Now, with the thunderfire, I REALLY can't commend on these. I just haven't seen enough of these in action but my first impression is that they are kinda weak but I am not the person to really commend on them.

The ONLY realy problem with your list (Barring any suggestions I made) is that you don't have any suicide squads. Your Tac Squads aren't the best and the Sternguard are OKAY but they are quite valuable.

Some comments:

Scout Bikers I have yet too use, but their are only two good uses you get out of them, locator beacons and cluster mines. As a support element to a heavy deepstrike army, they can be very helpful pin pointing placement. Clever deployment of objectives and the use of cluster mines can be a huge advantage too. But I agree that there are too many things you can use that will provide you a better return with those points.

Thunderfire Cannons are awesome, but I don't think one should field more then one in a list. They are a good support unit to the other shooting of your list. They love to share a ruin with a unit of devastators.

Two Assault Terminator Squads are overkill, even in a Vulkan list. I would rather have one Terminator Squad and focus more on Shooting to disrupt your enemy. In the list I posted I had 9 Twin-Linked Multimeltas, I had no problem choosing the targets I had to send my Assault Terminators too. I play against IG, Black Templars, Space Wolves. and Khorne heavy deamons enough to know that there are quite a few units that can easily handle Assault Terminator Squads, either in assault or popping their transport. 3+ invulnerable save means nothing against 20+ Power Weapon wounds. A concentration of shooting allows you to pop Transports and Weakens your opponents assault units to where your Terminators are much more effective against the targets of opportunity you will more likely get.

I will say in order of effectiveness; Land Raider Crusader, Land Raider, Land Raider Redeemer. It's all about movement with Land Raiders, the Standard Raider is great to stick a scoring unit into and stand back and shoot. It's more effective then the Redeemer simply because it will have more opportunity to shoot. In all the games I played the Redeemer in, I think I fired the Flamstorm templates maybe 4 times, and this is in 6 months of playtesting. It's useful as a mid-field tank, but the LRC is better as an assault tank and the Standard Raider is better as a stand-off support tank. The Redeemer would be more effective if the Flamstorm Cannons where str. 4. Land Raider Crusader is still the top tank, it is one of the few tanks in the whole game that can fire every weapon on the move, and the hurricane bolters provide some much needed anti-infantry in heavy Mech lists.

I agree with EzeKK on the scout issue.

SM Bikers are hammers.
Ravenwing bikers are scalpels...let them handle the precision.

To get the most out of scout bikers makes them into one trick ponies.

They ‘must’ go first.
They ‘must’ have a target that is unsported.
They ‘must’ suffer badly if seized is seized.
They ‘must’ have a tank to be of best usage.

Else, their guns are really only good against bunched up hordes and rear armor/side armor (but lots of things are good against these as well).

2 Biker squads unloading on a single daemon prince is 250 points/2 Kill points/2 contesters there to kill something that is roughly 150 points worth only 1 kill point and can contest one thing.
You give up 250 points, 2 kill points, and 2 contesters to take down blah blah blah…it’s not a good trade off. They can kill a DP, but so can other things…. And their application for that role puts them in a dangerous position: mainly in the open for counter.

/shrug, if they run well with you than great. I’m not that impressed with them and have no place in my lists.
Regular biker squads are so good already… power armor, scoring, special weapons, hvy weapon.

I don’t need to be close to the enemy first turn, there is rarely the need for that.
Outflanking has too many ups and downs to rely on, and is not hard to plan for.

If the Scout bikers could score... I’d be all over them…but as it is now, they are a flavor unit to me, not on a need basis, nor add to much to the SM army list.

@EzeKK
No no... comments welcome.
I've played enough, won & lost, to know when to accept criticism.
1) LC > ML
I completely agree. I was tight on points @2k and the range was what I needed... HOWEVER, the list is actually not light on AT. If you math hammer it out, an Assault Cannon is still better than a Lascannon for popping most(not serpent/monolith) vehicles. My 75pt Razorbacks have already taken out 2x LR, and the flexibility to put out a lot of wounds on troops as well is simply priceless. That being said, I do agree that a 48-54" threat is better than a 30" threat(or 36" on the LRR), I'm not sure what I am willing to give up to get the 20pts for the LC's.

2) PW > MB+CMBM
I like this suggestion and have the models to make it work... I am however a little concerned that it would be overkill. In the list I predominantly cruise around with Pedro in a LRR giving a +1A bubble at about 30" (a LRR is huge!). Sure 4x PW attacks are ok... but 10x PW Attacks are pretty sweet. (both units charging 1 unit & pedro within 12". I will definitely sit on this a bit. If the CMBM was 5pts I'd do it in a heart beat, the fact that it's a little pricey makes me more than a little annoyed, I mean come on, it's 1x shot!

3) Sternguard + CMBM
It came down to points and battle field role for me. I found myself shooting at troops the majority of the time with their 2+ special round, so to me it seemed a flamer template to throw out more potential wounds was the way to go. They tend to hang back and counter whatever nasty appears and 5x Meltas would be perfect, but again, we are talking about another 20pts that I'm not sure how to get into the list.

4) LRC > LR > LRR
@Mahu & @EzeKK
I appreciate your suggestions, but after playing with the marines since the new LRR came out, and against them since 3rd, I can't see why anyone would take anything but a Redeemer in 5th. Honestly. In all of my lists the Land Raider is an assault vehicle, which means I am almost always moving 12" to either:
Race across the field for an assault
Shift defensively to lure my opponent in
Make it difficult for my opponent to hit easy in an assault

Since those are my primary uses, almost always moving 12", on any of the 3 variants I would be firing:
1x TL LC or 1x TL AC, 1x MM - so only 1 weapon from Machine Spirit.
Crunching numbers an AC > LC so a LRC or LRR are already better at AT and AI than a basic LR

A LRR w/ MM is the same cost as a LRC without a MM, so right there I'm gaining an additional special weapon for AT. Pretty shweet in my eyes! So from a shooting perspective I am getting more out my LRR than I would a LRC. In my eyes the TL Bolters aren't a selling point even if they are defensive weapons because I can put out 6-12 bolter rounds else where and rarely am i going to move 6" unless I'm firing the AC + MM at a tank.

The single reason why I would take a LRC over a LRR is - transport capacity. After my game last night it(capacity) can make a huge difference(opponent took LRC + Chronus). However, since I tend to run only 5 man squads i don't need the other spots, and the cost to output is better for me in a LRR.
As far as the templates are concerned, they are insane. I fire them every game. Killing most things on a 2+ is absolutely worth it and last night 1x LRR wiped out a whole 10x man tac squad with 2x shots from the Flamestorms. Even if you are shooting at 2+ armor you are still putting out more wounds than the bolter rounds due to strength, given in my games that I am usually moving 12".

The LRR+LRC play a lot differently than the basic LR, and to me I feel I can get TL LC into a list much cheaper and more effectively than on a LR. If you haven't given it a serious look... I highly recommend the LRR. Keep in mind you will always want to be moving it which with static shooty armies it really doesn't work well. Though if you have and it doesn't work for you, to each their own.

5) Thunderfire Cannons
@EzeKK
A techmarine with a servo harness + a cheap awesome gun. So far I have rolled crappy on my scatter in each game but they have still been incredibly effective which surprises me. The spamming of templates is something I have brought over from guard and these guys do it well.
@Mahu
I'm lame. I make cookie cutter lists and like duplicity.
If I run into a guard army or a tau army or don't have a ruin, the thunderfire takes to much fire for it to survive. It also draws a ton of hate which is great because the Razorbacks really are mean, but for some reason people fire AT at the TC. Another dirty little trick with the TC is the under estimated Tremor round. I thought it sucked on paper but find against bikes & jump + jet infantry it's absolutely ridiculous. I get a chance to wound at S4, and if I get a hit they count as in difficult terrain. Ok, whatever, so they don't move... big mistake, I shoot them again. They move, and I get another, albeit it small - 17%, chance to kill any model in the unit. Against bikes it's pretty mean.

Something else to consider, that I'm not 100% sure if it works, is if you fire the Tremor round from both at the same unit, maximizing the 1D6 move through cover.

6) 2x Units of TH/SS Termies
@Mahu
Again. I'm lame.
They tend to get +1A and being able to dictate when they charge from the LRR is incredibly useful. 20x TH attacks is a lot, it's a heck of a lot. Even if you roll like crap you still end up with 5+ kills. I have yet to play daemons but I imagine I would shoot the crap out of them, 20x AC shots + 8x SBT, for two turns before I would want to send my termies at them. Since I like the duplicity of having another unit of Termies advancing if I get unlucky and the one is way out of position, usually the other isn't.

@Mahu

Well there is an issue with cluster mines.
They are done before choosing sides I believe… so you could end up with the side with the bombs and rob yourself of viable cover should you not want to chance the damage.

As for pin point placement, /shrug, that is overkill with the cheapo pods SM can get. If you want Pin-point placement go Ravenwing IMO.

I’m meh on the TFC, I don’t like it, but I do want to give it a try, it just doesn’t….’fit’ into a biker list… at least thematically-wise.

@Paidinfull:
To sum up your post, you are lame… :-D
Seriously: no worries, this is the internet and we should expect all sorts of lists.

@Sanctjud
The TFC really has no place in a bike list, or at least none that I can see.
It's a pretty interesting weapon, and one that fits well with how I play my marines.
I used to hate marine lists and never wanted to play the race until this codex came out.
I liked the combat tactic rules felt the cost for marines was competitive and liked the sternguard, TFC + LRR a lot. The LRR mostly because I like placing flamer templates... it's an odd fascination for me.

One thing a TFC combos nicely with on paper is Sniper Scouts, who generally aren't worth the points I feel.
However, now you're paying the same amount of points for a 2+ marine with the bolster rule.

After playing with the TFC for a bit now, I feel I can say one TFC really won't make an impact in your shooting phase. It might get to fire once or twice before someone pops it or you roll poorly on the techmarine. Being able to ignore cover against orks/eldar/guard is useful, slowing assault troops is also excellent.

@Paidinfull:
I agree, but there are other points of view.

I remember reading recently that they were used to slow down the opponent, which in a way makes us even faster...?...anyway, I like the enthusiasm of that guy, but it is to be taken cautiously.

I am in the boat that it is at least worth a try, no matter how much it may scream no.