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I'd of thought marines, and they shall know no fear, and not to mention a guardsmen will do a browner and run if a firewarrior runs at him with a knife

Was he a guardsmen?

My vote goes to the Commissars. They get sent to regiments around the universe to uphold Imperial command and control by shooting their cowardly leaders and fighting to the death.

thekingofdinner wrote:Ollanius Pius decided to try and kill horus in a 1 on 1 fight. that takes ballz

Lol. He walked into a room. Horus looked at him. He died. Seriously, he actually did die when Horus looked at him.

IMO this is the "Batman/Superman debate",Marines may seem braver,but of course they stand a much greater chance of walking out of a fire fight/close combat no worse for wear.
A Guardsman has no "super powers",so I would have to say that Guardsmen by and large are much braver.

nice is very interestign comparing rouge markets response to yours.

Guardsmen are Humanity at its finest; brothers in arms whose only hope of victory is to stand and fight together.

Space Marines aren't human. They have no fear to overcome.

Well guardsmen can be sometimes be a chicken and if Mordians wil hold lines against everything that galaxy can throw at them even cans.

Lets see how brave marines would be if they had to wear Flak armor rather than power armor. And used flashlights rather than bolters.

They would still be ass-shakingly brave. They just wouldn't last that long.

Guardsmen have as many acts of heroism as they do cowardice. (if not more) But Space Marines are always heroic, all the time. It is not that they have no fear, but the do not heed it.

To those quoting "And they shall know no fear" it actually goes like this

Lexicanum wrote:They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.

+++ The Emperor of Mankind, on the Creation of the Space Marines +++

When used in context they will know no fear because of their training and equipment. Not to mention the genetic modification. Guardsmen might run from time to time, but they march towards the enemy armed with 40k's equivilant of a potato gun and little more than ordinary clothes for armour. The only mental conditioning they really get is "If I don't fight, the Commissar will kill me anyway".

I will happily join in: Guards are the braver souls. They can't choose where or whom they fight, their equipment is nowhere great or shiny (Damn, why did we have to loose our stormbolters? Were these too mighty for us or what?! ) and just about any fight has a terrible tendency to be a "glorious last stand". At least when reading some of that stupidly written WD stuff
"Okay, that's it! Get out of your fancy suit and say that again!" Best way to show a marine who's tough.
I like the approach of the last line of defence, the nearly (mind that!) hopeless resistance and the underdog image of the imperial guard. Just hope, GW doesn't turn away from that in favour of picturing the IG as the damsel in distress to be saved (once again) by the glorious almighty blablabla SMs.
We can be heroes, too!

You really think that Guardsmen stand a chance against most of the imperiums foes on thier lonesome?

And it differs from planet to planet. Many worlds may have a strict martial upbringing where honour and bravery are in plentiful supply. Some saner worlds could be a bit concerned about their own safety.

A compliment for a guardsmen would be something like "Hey, you would have made a good Space Marine!"

Ollianus Pius single handedly saved the imperium. The final fight between Big E and Horus was alot like the luke/vader fight, but more grimdark,
"I know there's some good in you!"
"No there isn't, STFU and die already!"
"Hey Mister! Look out!"
Horus glances at the lone G-man charging him and casually tears out his heart and anniahilates his soul, causing the room to be covered in blood...

...

"I guess there Isn't good in you after all..."
*SMITE!*

OFC, Emps was mortaly wounded at the time, and never made a full recovery.

Spacys of course...

sniperjolly wrote:Ollianus Pius single handedly saved the imperium. The final fight between Big E and Horus was alot like the luke/vader fight, but more grimdark,
"I know there's some good in you!"
"No there isn't, STFU and die already!"
"Hey Mister! Look out!"
Horus glances at the lone G-man charging him and casually tears out his heart and anniahilates his soul, causing the room to be covered in blood...

...

"I guess there Isn't good in you after all..."
*SMITE!*

OFC, Emps was mortaly wounded at the time, and never made a full recovery.

"I know there's some good in you father. You couldn't kill me then, and you won't take me to the emperor now"
Hey....wait a secuund.
Also, it could've been a custode or an IF. Or maybe all 3?

This is a very hard question because you have to decide what brevery is and what does it mean to each respected subject? I remember a similar question on another forum I posed about who is a bigger hero- Batman or Superman. In that topic we had to disscuss what a hero was because Superman- is indestructable- but at the same time is nearly irreplaceable. Batman on the other hand is very much human- and almost irreplaceable(argueable I guess). I understand the obvious point that a marine can charge a howling banshee or Tyranid warrior and have a better than fair chance of survival- where a guard does not- yet they both WILL charge if "For the Emperor!" and all that... A guardsman may take a few years to train properly ( honestly I don't know) where a marine takes what 20 years of training/implant/surgery/psychic surgery, ect. It is easy to say a guardsman is more brave because he is outclassed physically-but you could argue it is a greater loss when a space marine dies because of how long they may live and all the people they may save, ect. So in the end- I will say that anyone- that sacrifices themselves (or tries to) is very brave because in the end if you slip on a tyranid biophage on the ground and break you neck in battle or you are hit by a blood thirster's axe- dead is dead. The only way to quantify it further- is if you by into normal death- heaven/Emperor's heaven whatever or if you go by the whole- "if a daemon gets you they take your soul to the Eye of Terror " he rips you apart over and over for all eternity blah blah stuff that daemons are known to say- then you may say that Daemon hunters or whoever fights them may be braver because for anyone else that dies- dies- but the deamons tae it a step further. Personally I just take that as tuff guy talk from the daemons...? Right? Force weapons destroying or eating your soul doesn't sound too good either now that I thingk of it. I guess it depends on whether you believe in the "soul" stuff. I myself do not.

SM: when your a genticly inhanced supersoldier brainwashed with religious dogma, your just a thinking killing machine.
The Gaurd: sure there are a million billion of you, but does that really matter to the bullet with your name on it?
Winner Gaurd.

I say marines because they are chosen from the best and bravest recruits. Also guard have legions of tanks, millions of each other and the odd commisar pointing a gun at their head.
Also marines have to fight tougher foes and are used as elite shock troops, and so are braver because they started out from the bravest so now know no fear.

Yeah I forgot about der commizar...definately a motivator..haha.

kuro_khan wrote:Lets see how brave marines would be if they had to wear Flak armor rather than power armor. And used flashlights rather than bolters.

Read the killing ground

Marines don't need a commissar. Guard do. Think about it.

Guardsmen have balls of ing steel. Guardsmen all the way. I mean do we have to even ask? Let's do a comarision.
Space Marine: doesn't know fear, has pauldrons so huge that they get a 3+ armour save. Fancy gear.
Guardsmen: Flak jacket, giant laser-pointer,balls of steel.
Compared to a space marine the guardsman the gaurdsmen has the steelier balls.

Sorry SM! But balls of steel confer leadership value of over 9000!

I think guarsmen have it tougher persionaly but marines are brave so i put it up for a poll keep posting

The Guardsmen charge forward because the comissar is threatening to kill them.

And whoever said the SM are only put where the fighting is not too bad, is bs. They are put where the fighting is worst. I dunno what books you are reading but they aren't written by someone who knows the fluff.

And you all speak English, please exxer size propar grammar and spelin

TheRavenWolf wrote:
Also marines have to fight tougher foes and are used as elite shock troops, and so are braver because they started out from the bravest so now know no fear.

Ah but if they know no fear then how can you overcome it? And you obviously never played a monstrous creature 4000 point tyranid army with only 1 baneblade!

Space Marines are not Fearless. Otherwise they would have the fearless rule. They are just incredibly brave. Leadership 9 and 10 type brave. Which is better than Ld 7. Who has Ld 7? Oh, that's right. Guardsmen.

But why wouldn't they be super "brave" when they have 3+ chance of surviving and some of the best equipment the Imperium has to offer?

Munch Munch! wrote:But why wouldn't they be super "brave" when they have 3+ chance of surviving and some of the best equipment the Imperium has to offer?

Then explain how you can take away all their equipment and their armour, and their attitude towards endangering their lives for the Imperium won't change. Sure, Guardsmen have their moments, but one on one, I'd give it to the Marine, easy.

This makes me think back to a thread about "Why do Orks use such dangerous tech?". It was decided that the way Orks see things, it's much better to be super-awesome and die quickly, than to live long and only be a little bit awesome. Of course, if you get lucky and live long WHILE being super awesome, all the more for you!

Marines are the same way. When you hear of Marines fighting to the last man, it's not because they're trapped or they're just bald and screaming, it's because if they can help it, they're going to kill as many of the Heretical/Xenos scum as they can before they die. Or, barring that, curse the enemy out until something finishes them off.

Guardsmen, on the other hand, are going to get themselves out of a bad situation rather than die if at all possible. Unlike Marines, they believe in the phrase "He who flees, fights again". Whereas with a Marine it's "He who does what?". Which is part of the reason Guardsmen come in massive swarms of flashlights and fodder. Because as long as there're more of them than there are the foe, they're brave. Start killing them in droves though, and they'll brown their trousers faster than an old man with no bowel control.

However, for coolness points, Guardsmen win. Because nothing beats shelling the piss out of things with excessive amounts of tanks and artillery.