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twistinthunder wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
Do newspapers make money when they sell a copy with a review of a book or film in?

Yes.

You don't have to not make money while making use of Fair Use.

erm im pretty sure thats the point of fair use.

No it's not. See here.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

Copyright laws depend on the country you are in. However, in real life copyright depends on the financial assets of both parties.

Dal'yth Dude wrote:Copyright laws depend on the country you are in. However, in real life copyright depends on the financial assets of both parties.

This. Even if you are 100% in the right, are you going to go to court and spend thousands of dollars defending that you are right while the corporation, who has money orders of magnitude greater than you, continues to stall and drag the fight out until you run dry? In this day and age, you have two choices: fight and be left bankrupt (and lose because they outlast you), or roll over like the good lap dog you are because the benevolent overlords are giving you a way out. You see this kind of stuff all the time anymore. It's the fact that they gave the corporations the rights of people combined with such fine and upstanding laws as the DMCA and the soon to be unveiled ACTA that give GW this kind of power. You can thank every US and UK politico since the 80s for this. What I just can't figure out is how no one stepped up and stopped it all when they might have had the chance.

We've got a 30 player league here in Australia's Capital. Which is healthier than any other gaming league around by a good margin that I'm aware of.

If it wasn't for the websites as Waaagh_Gonads mentioned being used as inspiration/learning development tools for new players then the game would have stagnated and died a long time ago.

GWS please bring it, I'll shut down my small club forums when

1) I have a court order from a court who has jurisdiction over my servers.

2) They buy it from me..

www.mi40k.com

R3con wrote:GWS please bring it, I'll shut down my small club forums when

1) I have a court order from a court who has jurisdiction over my servers.

2) They buy it from me..

www.mi40k.com

Won't even take that much. The term "40k" is a registered trademark of Games Workshop LLC, and as a result of you using it to discuss miniatures, you are causing confusion on who and what the term is supposed to denote, and as such dilluting GW's brand power. As a result you have to take down any and all content related to wargaming, miniatures, or LotR. You can have the domain though, but you are limited to using it for things not related to wargaming, including war, gaming, space, mechs, guns, humans, or aliens.

See how easy that was?

Mordheim (Dark Reign 40k) wrote:You can understand that it is very dificult, maybe impossible, for a fansite to exist if it can't show the product(s) it writes about.

False. You can't show the product from GW's site. There's nothing stopping you from photographing the product yourself and hosting your own pics.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Most of these people aren't making money from them, donations barely cover the costs of the site meaning the owner covers the rest.

This is a mostly false statement. Definitely an uninformed one. I can't say whether or not these people are making money from the donations, but I can state that, in MY experience, it is ludicrously easy to make money from donations, would the domain-holder be so inclined.

Have you ever owned a fansite or website of any kind before? Leased a domain name and server space from a company? I am a veteren of nearly a decade of fansite-running for various online games I've played. It started out as my America's Army clan was growing and we wanted forums and what not. I hosted the Team Speak server myself. Then, it moved on to an MMO I used to play, Anarchy Online. We had a website for our Org (Omni-Tek!). Currently, I've been running a website/forums for my guild in World of Warcraft for the last 4 years, as well as a Ventrilo chat server.

Web-hosting companies (GoDaddy, iPowerweb, etc) all offer a yearly rate for the hosting at a fixed cost. Domains are registered for one year, also. Nationvoice.com, the Ventrilo hosting company also charges a yearly fee for my server. So, my website's dowmain is $20/year, the server space is about $80/year, and the Ventrilo server is about $240/year. There's no way I'm spending $350/year on this stuff, so each year I will post a thread on our forums for donations. We have one of the largest guilds on our server, so those donations come in REALLY fast.

If I were so inclined, I could EASILY rake in $500 in a month from donations. That would leave me with another year's site and Vent, plus an extra $150 for hookers and blow.

Howard A Treesong wrote:If most took it away they couldn't afford to run their sites. GW are being disingenuous in making it seem like they are making some small reasonable request, they know that removal of a donations system will sink many sites.

Oh poor site owners... If you can't afford the house payment, you shouldn't buy the f'n house. Somehow, this is GW's fault? GW is the bad guy for this?


GW created 40k, WHFB, Blood Bowl, etc. They DESERVE control of their IP as far as the law allows it. Period. You wouldn't sign somebody else's name to legal documents, would you?

www.40kWHFBMordheimNecromundaEpic40kForgeWorldEldarTyranidsBloodBowlMcCraggeImperialArmorChaosDwarvesNurgleSlanneshTzeentchKhorneAsuryan
WindriderImperialFistsdonatemoneytomesoIcanpayforthiswebsiteandbuymymetalSistersOfBattle.com
is getting shut down? How dare you GW...



I think the moral of this story is that GW should start making Sisters of Battle PLASTICS...



Ghidorah

daedalus wrote:

R3con wrote:GWS please bring it, I'll shut down my small club forums when

1) I have a court order from a court who has jurisdiction over my servers.

2) They buy it from me..

www.mi40k.com

Won't even take that much. The term "40k" is a registered trademark of Games Workshop LLC, and as a result of you using it to discuss miniatures, you are causing confusion on who and what the term is supposed to denote, and as such dilluting GW's brand power. As a result you have to take down any and all content related to wargaming, miniatures, or LotR. You can have the domain though, but you are limited to using it for things not related to wargaming, including war, gaming, space, mechs, guns, humans, or aliens.

See how easy that was?

40k isn't a registered trademark. Warhammer 40,000 is.

Yes, it is. See here.

http://www.trademarkdirect.co.uk/trademark/result.aspx?id=43622

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, it is. See here.

http://www.trademarkdirect.co.uk/trademark/result.aspx?id=43622

funny ... There seems to have been an error during the search. Please click here to try again

However, when I redid the search it said unavailable because it was close to another.

It isn't in the the list on the GW site pg 5 of their blurb on trademarks. would have thought it would have been on that if 40k was trademarked.GW Legal lists it as Warhammer 40k. Below is the blurb from their website - no mention of 40k.


Warhammer 40,000
This web site is completely unofficial and in no way endorsed by Games Workshop Limited.

Adeptus Astartes, Blood Angels, Bloodquest, Cadian, Catachan, the Chaos devices, Cityfight, the Chaos logo, Citadel, Citadel Device, Codex, Daemonhunters, Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, 'Eavy Metal, Eldar, Eldar symbol devices, Eye of Terror, Fire Warrior, Forge World, Games Workshop, Games Workshop logo, Genestealer, Golden Demon, Gorkamorka, Great Unclean One, Inquisitor, the Inquisitor logo, the Inquisitor device, Inquisitor:Conspiracies, Keeper of Secrets, Khorne, Kroot, Lord of Change, Necron, Nurgle, Ork, Ork skull devices, Sisters of Battle, Slaanesh, Space Hulk, Space Marine, Space Marine chapters, Space Marine chapter logos, Tau, the Tau caste designations, Tyranid, Tyrannid, Tzeentch, Ultramarines, Warhammer, Warhammer 40k Device, White Dwarf, the White Dwarf logo, and all associated marks, names, races, race insignia, characters, vehicles, locations, units, illustrations and images from the Warhammer 40,000 universe are either ®, TM and/or © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2009, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world. Used without permission. No challenge to their status intended. All Rights Reserved to their respective owners.

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, it is. See here.

http://www.trademarkdirect.co.uk/trademark/result.aspx?id=43622

Can't see how you could Trademark 40k, especially as in this format it could be short hand for a money value. Just imagine all those recruitment sites getting a C&D letter because a web search has brought up "40k" in the results.

Ghidorah wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:If most took it away they couldn't afford to run their sites. GW are being disingenuous in making it seem like they are making some small reasonable request, they know that removal of a donations system will sink many sites.

Oh poor site owners... If you can't afford the house payment, you shouldn't buy the f'n house.

And that's why people choose to close the sites, I'm not arguing against that only pointing out that the people saying "just change the name" are missing the biggest obstacles being put in their way. And I do have some understanding of the costs of running fan sites though in relation to TV shows not gaming. For instance one of the largest Doctor Who forums online which is plastered with the "Doctor Who" trademark and other images yet was not attacked by the BBC over IP issues and yet they have donation systems. Though I don't think they made money on them but barely broke even, with the owner making up the rest because it was his hobby and he was happy to do so, though he couldn't ever shoulder the full costs. GW can stamp on people if they like, but it's people that buy their product they are spiting. These people aren't recasting and taking money away from GW, they are keeping parts of the hobby alive which undoubtedly brings money the way of GW. GW is within their right to do this but it's their nose they are cutting off.

http://fumbbl.com/

In addition to this, there's a bunch of information which is more rumour-like, with me being unable to verify the validity:

- The reason for this is a renewal of GW's trademarks. (GW's trademark for Blood Bowl was registered on 22 December 1998, with normal renewal time being 10 years).- This is only targeting sites that use the Blood Bowl trademark in their site / domain names (all three confirmed sites have been using blood bowl in their domain names).

I will naturally keep you all updated on the matter when I receive any further information. Meanwhile, please remember to adhere to the rules on offensive language that we have on the site.

I am in contact with Tom Anders regarding this issue, and we're trying to find a way to get through this as well as possible.

I'm sure that must have been a re-registering of the TM..yes ?

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW can stamp on people if they like, but it's people that buy their product they are spiting. These people aren't recasting and taking money away from GW, they are keeping parts of the hobby alive which undoubtedly brings money the way of GW. GW is within their right to do this but it's their nose they are cutting off.

I can't argue against this for one second. 100% truth.



Ghidorah

Wolfstan wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, it is. See here.

http://www.trademarkdirect.co.uk/trademark/result.aspx?id=43622

Can't see how you could Trademark 40k, especially as in this format it could be short hand for a money value. Just imagine all those recruitment sites getting a C&D letter because a web search has brought up "40k" in the results.

Trademarks are specific to particular industries. For instance, you could trademark a tabletop wargame called 40K and it would not stop someone from starting a chain of restaurants called 40K.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

fullheadofhair wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, it is. See here.

http://www.trademarkdirect.co.uk/trademark/result.aspx?id=43622

funny ... There seems to have been an error during the search. Please click here to try again

However, when I redid the search it said unavailable because it was close to another.

It isn't in the the list on the GW site pg 5 of their blurb on trademarks. would have thought it would have been on that if 40k was trademarked.GW Legal lists it as Warhammer 40k. Below is the blurb from their website - no mention of 40k.

I searched in classes 28 (games) and 41 (education and internet services) which seemed to best describe the process of making a website about a game.

Maybe there is another company, not GW, which has trademarked 40K in those classes.

Thank you for your email concerning the website www.talkbloodbowl.com.

We understand that you are unhappy about the decision by the people running www.talkbloodbowl.com to shut their site down. The Blood Bowl community is important to Games Workshop and we are also disappointed that they have felt it necessary to take such a step. Unfortunately, that decision is entirely one for them and we can have no influence over what action they choose to take.

Unlike many companies, Games Workshop usually only stops people from using our intellectual property if we must do so in order to protect it (provided that use is by and for hobbyists). For example, the law requires us to protect our trademarks in certain ways – and if we do not – we might lose them. As you can imagine, we do not want to lose our trademarks as we would no longer be able to create the great miniatures and table top hobby wargames that we pride ourselves on.

‘Blood Bowl’ is a trademark that belongs to Games Workshop. Therefore the use of it by third parties, without licence, is unlawful and an infringement of Games Workshop’s rights.



Guidance has been available for our fans for many years in our Intellectual Property Policy that can be found on the legal pages of our website http://legal.games-workshop.com This sets out how our hobbyists can use our intellectual property in such a way that Games Workshop is not likely to object. Within the policy there are some simple rules, such as:

1) Do not mention any Games Workshop Trademarks, such as “Blood Bowl” or “Warhammer” in your URL or league name; and
2) Do not screenscrape any content from official websites.

There are also a number of more general guidelines, setting out the spirit of the policy. If a fan follows the policy in spirit and letter, then it is highly unlikely that Games Workshop will take any action to prevent their use of Games Workshop’s IP.

Games Workshop has not specifically targeted any particular website but instead has taken a consistent approach to all sites that we are aware of that are using our ‘Blood Bowl’ trademark without our permission.

We have written to the owners or administrators of these sites detailing our concerns. In our letters, we gave the parties infringing our rights various options as to how they could address our concerns. At no time did Games Workshop demand that any website close down.

We trust that this clarifies the situation.

linky

reds8n wrote:

Thank you for your email concerning the website www.talkbloodbowl.com.

We understand that you are unhappy about the decision by the people running www.talkbloodbowl.com to shut their site down. The Blood Bowl community is important to Games Workshop and we are also disappointed that they have felt it necessary to take such a step. Unfortunately, that decision is entirely one for them and we can have no influence over what action they choose to take.

Unlike many companies, Games Workshop usually only stops people from using our intellectual property if we must do so in order to protect it (provided that use is by and for hobbyists). For example, the law requires us to protect our trademarks in certain ways – and if we do not – we might lose them. As you can imagine, we do not want to lose our trademarks as we would no longer be able to create the great miniatures and table top hobby wargames that we pride ourselves on.

‘Blood Bowl’ is a trademark that belongs to Games Workshop. Therefore the use of it by third parties, without licence, is unlawful and an infringement of Games Workshop’s rights.



Guidance has been available for our fans for many years in our Intellectual Property Policy that can be found on the legal pages of our website http://legal.games-workshop.com This sets out how our hobbyists can use our intellectual property in such a way that Games Workshop is not likely to object. Within the policy there are some simple rules, such as:

1) Do not mention any Games Workshop Trademarks, such as “Blood Bowl” or “Warhammer” in your URL or league name; and
2) Do not screenscrape any content from official websites.

There are also a number of more general guidelines, setting out the spirit of the policy. If a fan follows the policy in spirit and letter, then it is highly unlikely that Games Workshop will take any action to prevent their use of Games Workshop’s IP.

Games Workshop has not specifically targeted any particular website but instead has taken a consistent approach to all sites that we are aware of that are using our ‘Blood Bowl’ trademark without our permission.

We have written to the owners or administrators of these sites detailing our concerns. In our letters, we gave the parties infringing our rights various options as to how they could address our concerns. At no time did Games Workshop demand that any website close down.

We trust that this clarifies the situation.

linky

Got some good legal comments there as well.

What I'd be interested in is, why GW is behaving like this. Even "big" brands like Star Trek or Star Wars are enhancing fansites and the community. And I never heard of LEGO charging fans for their brick movies...
So I understand how important it is to protect it's IP, what harm are doing fans to GW?
Other companies are even providing a fansite kit to the community...
Or are they only living their own creation of a totalitarian universe which is 40K?
I cannot come up with any other idea than a conspiracy to go bust?!

Tabletop_Insider wrote:What I'd be interested in is, why GW is behaving like this. Even "big" brands like Star Trek or Star Wars are enhancing fansites and the community. And I never heard of LEGO charging fans for their brick movies...
So I understand how important it is to protect it's IP, what harm are doing fans to GW?
Other companies are even providing a fansite kit to the community...
Or are they only living their own creation of a totalitarian universe which is 40K?
I cannot come up with any other idea than a conspiracy to go bust?!

IMO GW just don't "get" the Internet.

Many entertainment companies have eagerly embraced the Internet as a means of two-way communication with fans, building supportive communities around their brand, providing User Generated Content (which costs the company nothing and enhances its offerings.)

GW however seem to regard the Internet and fan activity as subversive at best, and direct enemies at worst.

It boggles the mind, eh?


Ghidorah

Yet internet is GW only publicity tool, since they rely on word of mouth to spread the brand.

Not only they dont understand the internet but they are clearly against it... GW closed their forums and their answer to legit costumers debates and critics is to simply close down things... Shows to me they are stuck on their feudal castle and cant see the peasants are the ones that supply provisions to them...

Their mindest is that their product is a "physical" product. In their eyes the hobby is about getting people around a table to paint and play with their models, so there is no need for the internet. They fail to realise that the internet is a vital part of the hobby nowadays. It allows people to share ideas, painting advice, arrange games and most importantly... INSPIRE. You kill all that off and you are likely to suffer a drop off in your sales.

Whether GW likes it or not the Internet has a very place in the scheme of things.

As already mentioned, there are bigger brands out there that have managed to find a balance over the whole IP & Copyright issue and how fans make use of such things. It does appear to be a spite / control issue rather than a genuine concern over protecting their IP.

Wolfstan wrote:
As already mentioned, there are bigger brands out there .

I wonder actually if this is at least partially the reason they are so paranoid. No court in the world is going to rule against Lucas/Lucasarts from their ownership of the Star Wars IP..and if they did they have deep enough pockets to win almost any court case. GW, whilst they are the "big fish" of the TTWG industry might be a bit worried that this is still a very small pond compared to what else is out there.

Perhaps they think that by killing off all the fan sites they will sell more White Dwarfs, even though they don't offer any coverage of specialist games in said catalogue.

Surely there must be a disclaimer that allows fansites to use the contested names as urls and use their artwork, without GW losing control of their IP. If the site then fails to post this disclaimer and / or abuse it they get a C&D order.

GW could make such an arrangement. Perhaps they feel it is too much trouble.

Would Space Hulk sold as much without the internet? Or would they of even re-released it withyout knowing it was really wanted?

Wolfstan wrote:Would Space Hulk sold as much without the internet? Or would they of even re-released it withyout knowing it was really wanted?

Would we even be in the hobby if it wasnt for the internet? In portugal I can tell you, I wouldnt.

I think the release of space hulk would have been a fizzler without the net.

It generated buzz and allowed people to plan ahead (I bought 2 so had to save for 3 months to use all of my 'mini money' to buy it.)
If it had of appeared out of nowhere (as seemingly they intened I would have only bought 1)

Kilkrazy wrote:
The law of copyright has a clear provision of fair use which allows the use of excerpts for the purposes of comment, criticism and review.

That's true, but GW has scary lawyers and most fan sites are lucky if they break even and can't afford to go to court.

(Of course, why should they, as they're a fan site!

The funny thing is, didn't GW basically shut down their own forums with a note that it was because the other online forums did a better job?

I think this is pretty lousy, but I'm guessing this is the lawyers being overzealous.