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Also remember that there is that newish blood bowl video game - I can see them wanting to protect their IP - as someone else mentioned, if they don't do anything about little stuff, they can't do anything about big stuff (say Hasbro making a fantasy world based blood bowl type football game) because they didn't protect their IP

Somnicide wrote:Also remember that there is that newish blood bowl video game - I can see them wanting to protect their IP - as someone else mentioned, if they don't do anything about little stuff, they can't do anything about big stuff (say Hasbro making a fantasy world based blood bowl type football game) because they didn't protect their IP

Point of fact, Hasbro could legally make a fantasy world based blood bowl style games since they own something called Dungeons & Dragons...

Yep, but if GW didn't defend their IP Hasbro could basically use their rule set and aesthetic.

Somnicide wrote:Yep, but if GW didn't defend their IP Hasbro could basically use their rule set and aesthetic.

Well GW keep saying that if they don't step on these fan sites they will lose their IP. But is that actually true? Some of these sites have been online for a decade and there are loads of fan sites that are tolerated for everything under the sun and I don't see these companies losing their IP over their movies and other products as a result. GW could just as easily ignore fan sites and pretend that they don't know TalkBloodBowl and others exist. They can demonstrate that they value their IP when they prosecute recasters.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Somnicide wrote:Also remember that there is that newish blood bowl video game - I can see them wanting to protect their IP - as someone else mentioned, if they don't do anything about little stuff, they can't do anything about big stuff (say Hasbro making a fantasy world based blood bowl type football game) because they didn't protect their IP

Point of fact, Hasbro could legally make a fantasy world based blood bowl style games since they own something called Dungeons & Dragons...

I don't know if it's Hasbro, but there's some fantasy football board game they sell at TRU. It's a self-contained game, but I can't think of the name and can't find it through a web search yet.

Somnicide wrote:Yep, but if GW didn't defend their IP Hasbro could basically use their rule set and aesthetic.

... it's a bit stickier, but legally they could use the aesthetic, and with more legal difficulty, the ruleset. Remember, a ruleset is a system, and systems cannot be copyrighted.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Somnicide wrote:Yep, but if GW didn't defend their IP Hasbro could basically use their rule set and aesthetic.

Well GW keep saying that if they don't step on these fan sites they will lose their IP. But is that actually true? Some of these sites have been online for a decade and there are loads of fan sites that are tolerated for everything under the sun and I don't see these companies losing their IP over their movies and other products as a result. GW could just as easily ignore fan sites and pretend that they don't know TalkBloodBowl and others exist. They can demonstrate that they value their IP when they prosecute recasters.

GW has been saying this because under German copyright laws, they loose part of their right to the IP if they don't. The problem is that GW has based their entire business on the extremely fluid state of international copyright law. For example, Fair Use covers a much broader spectrum of activity in the US then it does in the UK or EU. This leads them to issue nonsensical cease and desists so that they do not lose copyright elsewhere, even though if the case actually went to trial in the US, they'd almost certainly lose.

(It would be ironic if, in persecuting one of these cases, a judge were to award the defendant the copyright in question as punitive damages.)

Bignutter wrote:
Yep and because of this GW is in the wrong, crushing their fan-base, ignoring how people feel, leaching off the hard work of the fans and is utterly evil- and anyone who sees it as well reasoned as that is branded a fan-boi (There may be a hint of sarcasm here)

.

I find a hint of provocation instead

Manchu wrote:

Maybe GW should send a free torch and pitchfork with every order. That might reflect adequate knowledge of the fanbase.

Flaming

Bignutter wrote:

You see, I don't think that it does adequately reflect the fanbase- just a very noisy minority who have an axe to grind for some reason. It seems to come up that certain people will always see GW in a bad light no matter what. The likes who complain about new models coming out because they "ruin it for those with the old ones" or don't like new army books or rule books coming out because it seems to them to be a "money grabbing evil corporateness" regardless of any good that comes of such releases.

I've noticed on the 3 or so threads about this that some of those old "GW is pure evil" type posts cropping up again and people seeming to get quite upset- and then lashing out at anyone who shows any support for GW. I think its fine that they have their opinions, and I may not agree with them, but I'd prefer not get flamed for holding a different opinion.

Initial Provocation ended up in just flaming others

I assume we are here to talk about GW actions not users... also I feel your line of argumentations and GROSSE generalizations towards all that express diferent opinions and also that fansites=bunch of pirates not only offbase but clowds your points (thanks for labeling me not only as a slowed hater, but since I have a fan site, also a lame pirate)...
Because, see I dont find that the world is black and white and cant establish a reasonable dialogue with who does.
I havent labeled no one of anything the topic for me is about GW atitudes towards fansites triggered about IP protection issues... so I would apreciate if you guys stoped flaming a perfect good & interesting topic.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:

(It would be ironic if, in persecuting one of these cases, a judge were to award the defendant the copyright in question as punitive damages.)

That would be just crazy, yet so damn funny Probably bloodbowl fansites would promote the thing beter than GW.

Thank you for the legal clarifications mate it really helps out.

IP is a very broad brush term which covers three main areas of law, trademarks, copyright and patents.

Leaving patents out, as I think they are irrelevant to the argument, GW are protecting two things; (1) their trademarked names Blood Bowl and Dark Reign, (2) the copyright in their pictures.

Trademarks must be defended or they are lost. The concept behind a trademark is different to a copyright. A trademark is a name or phrase used for a specific area of business. Blood Bowl is only trademarked as the name of a tabletop game and now a computer game of American Football played in a fantasy world. If I wanted to start a chain of restaurants based on Masai cuisine, and call it Blood Bowl, I would be legally entitled to do so. If GW let the world and their sister make free with the name Blood Bowl, meaning a fantasy football game, they will lose the trademark.

Copyright doesn't have to be defended, in the sense that just because a lot of people illegally copy your stuff, it doesn't stop being your stuff.

However, it's a good idea to defend copyright because as we all know, a lot of copying goes on, particularly among teenagers and college students (for sociological reasons) and these groups are GW's main target market. GW loses money every time someone downloads a scan of a codex instead of buying it.

Since GW are sending out these letters to offending sites, it makes sense to shoot two birds with one stone and defend both the TM and their copyright.

I still think GW handled the issue badly and raised an internet stink among vets which they could have avoided by being a bit more graceful in their approach. It also certainly didn't help that they had let some of these sites alone for nine years.

fullheadofhair wrote: Warhammer 40k Device,

yep no 40k in there. nuff said

BaronIveagh wrote:GW has been saying this because under German copyright laws, they loose part of their right to the IP if they don't. The problem is that GW has based their entire business on the extremely fluid state of international copyright law. For example, Fair Use covers a much broader spectrum of activity in the US then it does in the UK or EU. This leads them to issue nonsensical cease and desists so that they do not lose copyright elsewhere, even though if the case actually went to trial in the US, they'd almost certainly lose.

The German situation was slightly unusual if I recall. An independent company produced a film and if GW had allowed a public release it would have been a sign of voluntarily surrendering their IP. It would be akin to cooperating with a company to reproduce miniatures just like their own which no one is expecting them to do. I don't think that overlooking fan websites can compare to this precedent because if you don't know someone is violating IP, then you can't be expected to lose your IP to them. If that were the case music companies would lose their IP because people copy their stuff illegally and they don't take action against them all.

I can see that publically identifying people violating IP and them giving them a free pass would be dangerous, say if they linked to such fan sites on their own website as that would appear to endorse a site using their IP. But if they simply ignore them, what's the problem?

They are frankly making mountains out of molehills. Fan websites don't take any money from them, people who copy their miniatures and books do, but that's a different kettle of fish.

NAVARRO wrote:

Bignutter wrote:

You see, I don't think that it does adequately reflect the fanbase- just a very noisy minority who have an axe to grind for some reason. It seems to come up that certain people will always see GW in a bad light no matter what. The likes who complain about new models coming out because they "ruin it for those with the old ones" or don't like new army books or rule books coming out because it seems to them to be a "money grabbing evil corporateness" regardless of any good that comes of such releases.

I've noticed on the 3 or so threads about this that some of those old "GW is pure evil" type posts cropping up again and people seeming to get quite upset- and then lashing out at anyone who shows any support for GW. I think its fine that they have their opinions, and I may not agree with them, but I'd prefer not get flamed for holding a different opinion.

Initial Provocation ended up in just flaming others

I assume we are here to talk about GW actions not users... also I feel your line of argumentations and GROSSE generalizations towards all that express diferent opinions and also that fansites=bunch of pirates not only offbase but clowds your points (thanks for labeling me not only as a slowed hater, but since I have a fan site, also a lame pirate)...
Because, see I dont find that the world is black and white and cant establish a reasonable dialogue with who does.
I havent labeled no one of anything the topic for me is about GW atitudes towards fansites triggered about IP protection issues... so I would apreciate if you guys stoped flaming a perfect good & interesting topic.

Different opinions are fine- I can deal with those- but there have in these threads been people playing the "oh your a fanboi" card

At no point did I call you a slowed hater, nor indeed a pirate (in fact I've not mentioned pirates or retardness so why put words in my mouth)

I feel my mini soapbox rant has been caused by this topic becoming the straw that broke the camel's back with regards to some people taking as you would put it the "slowed hater" approach, including those who have made it personal.


As for the topic- I believe it has gone full circle- Everyone has said their bit and everyone seems to have their views deeply entrenched- so why doesn't everyone back off- agree to disagree and have a cup of tea?

Kilkrazy wrote:
I still think GW handled the issue badly and raised an internet stink among vets which they could have avoided by being a bit more graceful in their approach. It also certainly didn't help that they had let some of these sites alone for nine years.

Sums it up perfectly for me, a smart company if wanted to change things could change them in away that average people would not notice and fansite owners would thank GW for helping out.

Except, once again, we don't know that GW didn't approach the sites before now politely.

We only got into the issue when the sites began hooting and hollering that they received cease & desist orders.

Kanluwen wrote:Except, once again, we don't know that GW didn't approach the sites before now politely.

We only got into the issue when the sites began hooting and hollering that they received cease & desist orders.

Except that they all starting 'hooting and hollering' at the same time and none had taken any action prior to this and we aren't hearing about any who did.

Which leaves the overwhelming evidence that a mailshot was issued for a number of sites at the same time and that either;
A) they all ignored previous advice to get to that stage, indicated a similar wilful disregard for polite previous requests...or
B) no prior warning.

Given the evidence provided so far, B is looking by far the more likely.

What evidence?

All we've got is a bunch of sites that ignored legal mumbojumbo that's been on the GW site for 9 years and leeching corporate bandwidth...


Seems to me they'd have no problem ignoring a politely worded "Please stop".

But eh. I still think it's more because the Blood Bowl game just came out and GW might be under pressure from the developer to shut down anything that might take hits away from the "official" Blood Bowl site.

Kanluwen wrote:What evidence?

Several fansites relating to GW games or games that incorporate GW IP all reporting receiving a C&D instruction.

The rest of your post is supposition and hyperbole.

Just like the fact that we "know" that GW didn't send them a prior warning?

I'm just saying. Before we go and crucify GW for being the big evil jackboot of gaming companies, it's entirely possible that there WERE prior issues and the websites aren't interested in anything more than rabble rousing.

Which incidentally, bumps up their traffic and potentially the donations they receive.

Kanluwen wrote:Just like the fact that we "know" that GW didn't send them a prior warning?

I'm just saying. Before we go and crucify GW for being the big evil jackboot of gaming companies, it's entirely possible that there WERE prior issues and the websites aren't interested in anything more than rabble rousing.

Which incidentally, bumps up their traffic and potentially the donations they receive.

Technically, isn't a cease and desist actually just a legaleese and official warning? They weren't asking for compensation or anything.

Kanluwen brings up a good point. Ignorance of the law is never a defense. Fan sites have a responsibility to make sure their content doesn't step on the toes of GW. Plus, GW has had their IP policy posted. What is GW supposed to do? Send every fansite a link to that page as soon as they set up shop (assuming some way that GW could find them at that point) saying "wait a minute, read this"?

I think it will be an interesting time when the Epic licence comes full circle and this is repeated. Does anyone know when their term will be up similar to BB's recent 10 year cycle?

As Insaniak wrote in the other post "...GW have always acted like this".

Whether we are OK about it or not does not mean that people don't have a right to discuss it.

Manchu wrote:Kanluwen brings up a good point. Ignorance of the law is never a defense. Fan sites have a responsibility to make sure their content doesn't step on the toes of GW.

Perhaps the recently renamed talkbloodbowl surmised that nine years of operation with frequent input from GW staff was enough time to judge they were not in the wrong, running a fansite for a game the creator company has all but abandoned.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Manchu wrote:Kanluwen brings up a good point. Ignorance of the law is never a defense. Fan sites have a responsibility to make sure their content doesn't step on the toes of GW.

Perhaps the recently renamed talkbloodbowl surmised that nine years of operation with frequent input from GW staff was enough time to judge they were not in the wrong, running a fansite for a game the creator company has all but abandoned.

and that, if they chose to pursue that angle, they may have proven.

@MGS: If you assume GW staff that are not (a) on the board of directors or (b) their lawyers can approve of your ignoring their stated IP policy, what can I say? The usual line about assumptions applies.

GW legal itself points out in on of the C&D's that they don't need to inform you of anything beyond the C&D.

Manchu: Under US tort law, that GW employees contributed would constitute implicit approval, as your company is responsible for the actions of it's employees.

This is nonsense, they used a CnD, a threat of legal action, when a simple request would have sufficed.

It was lazy and overly aggressive and a corporation casually lashing out at the fanbase of it's own product. Whilst GW have every right to protect their IP, the threat really wasn't here and they took the short and brutal road instead of employing those same lawyers to produce caveats capable of accommodating those fansites.

GW have the right to protect their own copyrights and property, but they were protecting them from a threat that simply wasn't there, it's like suing a group of folks who've trespassed in a forest to pick up the litter, it is attacking a benevolent group of people who support your product. I can't make sense of the attitude to do that, based on what we've seen so far.

actually I think someone else has said this really well in the other thread.....

insaniak wrote:

So far as the C&D itself goes... Yes, as a layperson it seems a little extreme as a first step. But as has been pointed out in the other threads, we have no way of knowing whether or not GW did engage in any prior communication with these sites. I don't know about anyone else, but I also have no idea of the legal requirements of these sorts of requests... it's entirely possible that there are sound legal reasons that GW jumped straight to the C&D, if that's in fact what happened.

It's also possible, knowing what an intractible and/or unmotivated bunch a lot of wargamers tend to be, that GW have found in the past that asking politely just doesn't actually work. I can very easily imagine someone who has been running a fan site for years receiving a letter from GW politely asking them to change their domain name and thinking 'Yeah... when they make me' or 'Yeah, I'll get to it later...'


So, yeah, it's terrible that site owners feel that their best option is to close down. It seems on the surface to be a rather non-customer-friendly approach on GW's behalf. But we don't have the full story, here.

So yeah... what he said

Self-quote time!

Manchu wrote:Right, as stated, receiving anunexpected letter from lawyers is jarring. I think that's just what happens when the private sector crosses paths with the private citizen. It's like shaking hands with a Titan--whether he means to or not, his grip sorta crushes your hand.

Yeah but when he does, it's okay for some people to go "Dude that titan totally crushed that dude's hand. Lame."

Da Boss wrote:Yeah but when he does, it's okay for some people to go "Dude that titan totally crushed that dude's hand. Lame."

and is it ok on the internets for people to ask for pics and video?

Or maybe: "Hmm, should be more careful."