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Howard A Treesong wrote:If most took it away they couldn't afford to run their sites. GW are being disingenuous in making it seem like they are making some small reasonable request, they know that removal of a donations system will sink many sites.

It's costing me less than $14 a month to keep a website running, which includes the yearly domain registration.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:So they've gone after Dark Reign?

There's a fan-made RPG supplement for Space Marine characters on that site that clearly uses FFG's document borders and other artwork. I've known about it for a long time and felt that they were pushing their luck.

There we go. The rest of the story. Now we can stop being so angry?

Manchu wrote:There we go. The rest of the story. Now we can stop being so angry?

No, please reread this:

Wolfstan wrote:Am I the only one to think that some DakkaDakka members are missing the point of some the posts in this debate? From what I've read, nobody is saying that GW are in the wrong for wanting to protect their Trademarks or IP.

The anger and confusion is about how they've gone about it and what they want done to fix it. If MGS is correct, and my feeling is he is due to other legal comments made, then a simple disclaimer provided by GW would of covered the whole IP mess. If the affected websites had been given this chance and not taken it, then a C&D order is a valid follow up. Bandwidth stealing is a seperate issue.

It would seem to me that either GW's legal team is 100% right over the IP issue (various comments make me think that they might not be), they don't really know and are being paranoid / over the top, it could be that they are getting ear ache from 3rd parties who are being paranoid / feel threatened or it simply could be GW having a control freak moment (is that really likely, given it's a handful of sites?)

Thanks.

@MGS: Er, I'd suggest you read this:

Manchu wrote:Yes, "how it's done" is at least as important as "why it's done."

But the "why" isn't totally clear, either. I'm not sure how sites like Bloodbowl and Dark Heresy are hurting GW. I think that's what most people who hear about this think of right of the bat and then they get angry, right? We could defend GW by saying "it doesn't matter why the do what they do with their IP, it's theirs and that's reason enough" but that hardly going to deal with the anger. And that anger is just fanned by the attitude people can (and are) assuming GW takes: "We don't care if you're angry."

But we ought to ask ourselves why we're rushing to defend the little guy, i.e., assuming GW is playing the tyrant and has no legitimate reasons to ever be upset. Here's another point: has anyone seen one of the C&D letters in person? are any of us getting so pissed truly aware of the full context of GW's motives or the sites' in question transgressions? Does GW have a responsibility to communicate to the whole fan base (if so, how?) when they rightfully clamp down on some portion of it through the single person or small group of persons who manage that portion of it . . . like a webmaster? I'm not so sure that GW is sowing confusion and anger. Rather we're always ready to get riled up over "the man keeping us down." It's not necessarily a bad thing to be vigilant for that sort of bad behavior--but let's give them a little smidgen of the benefit of the doubt, shall we? Do some investigation--as some posters in this thread are doing--and think about it with a cooler head. GW hasn't killed your parents here. They're cracking down on a few fansites for reasons that we don't fully know and so are assuming are stupid/nonexistant. But feel free to respond with a long list of transgressions GW has committed against its consumers since you've been involved with the hobby.

Oh, almost forgot: Thanks!

DagobahDave wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:If most took it away they couldn't afford to run their sites. GW are being disingenuous in making it seem like they are making some small reasonable request, they know that removal of a donations system will sink many sites.

It's costing me less than $14 a month to keep a website running, which includes the yearly domain registration.

How much data do you serve?

I think I pay about £3.95 a month for hosting and I'm capped at 2GB, something like that.

Manchu wrote:Here's another point: has anyone seen one of the C&D letters in person? are any of us getting so pissed truly aware of the full context of GW's motives or the sites' in question transgressions?

Obviously, no one knows "the full story." But that's a stupid standard for debate; one that is never met on the internet or elsewhere. When people tell us that C&D letters represented the first communication from Games Workshop, why do you assume they are lying?

As a general rule, when people try to claim that they would really love to be nice guys, but, you know, these lawyers are just forcing them to be all mean and stuff, then you can safely conclude that those people are being dishonest. Lawyers are a popular scapegoat, but, as has been already pointed out, GW could come up with a solution that would allow the fansites to keep their domain names. It's not like trademark law has some magical domain name fetish. "Use it or lose it" is only an issue when dealing with unauthorized uses; a company with a better ear for public relations could easily come to a compromise instead of treating their dedicated fans like internet pirates.

Manchu wrote:GW hasn't killed your parents here.

Can't your entire post be turned on its head, Manchu? It's not like these Blood Bowl fansites have murdered anyone's parents, so what's the big deal with them using the word "Blood Bowl" in their domain name! And similarly, how can you step in and defend GW when you, like, don't know the whole story, man!

insaniak wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:If it wasnt for these BB sites there would be nothing relevant to protect besides a name no one would care about. Thats the real deal.
Any smart corp would get all the free publicity they can get, not the other way around... Instead of antagonizing people why not show some apreciation and say give some t-shirts or someting...
What do BB fans and people that worked for years from their pockets, just to keep things runing, have to say about GW now? Ungratefull and rude corp.

See, here's the thing, though...

Yes, you can argue that these Bloodbowl sites have 'kept the game alive'... Although if it was a game that GW weren't interested in actively supporting in its miniatures-based format any more, that's not really doing so much for GW. Particularly if that same site is (as was apparently the case with at least one of these sites) promoting other companies' miniatures for use with the game.

Not interested? So leave impact miniatures alone... let people have their leagues as they want it... Speaking of leeching... GW been leeching these sites efforts for almost a decade and even if its in their power to enforce changes they should at least show some respect about it.

insaniak wrote:

On a related note, though... GW have had their legal policies up for as long as they've had a website. The bit about not including GW-owned trademarks in your domain name has likewise been there for as long as I can remember.

If your neighbour has a sign asking people to keep off his grass, and you walk across his front lawn to take him his mail, is he being unreasonable to be grumpy about you trampling his lawn, because you did him a favour?

Unrelated, because not only I took his mail but when my neighbour didnt had a lawn I let his children mess up mine for a full decade without complaining at my expenses... even if i got maintenance tools on my neighbours hardware shop.

9 years ago web design and web masters were a lot more noobies at it.. I think the name chosen could have been avoided yet I think it was a inocent decisison.


@Manchu Who's angry? I know I'm not... I'm expressing my unfavorable opinion about GW in this particular issue... as much as i give favorable opinions about them when they do things like spacehulk reedition.
Also I'm not the paladin of the small opressed fans VS the megacorp GW... Besides I believe this megacorp behaved in a amateur childish manner and I think GW is less well informed about whats going on than said fans

As for not expressing our reporval about all this because we dont have full information... Do you EVER have full information about anything these days? Or just parcial preception? Dont answer its retorical.
People just work with what they have.

There is a lot of good information and discussion in this thread, but let's remember to keep it on topic and polite, please.

What disappoints me about the whole issue is that GW seemingly either don't know or don't care about the fan community surrounding their games.

It would no doubt be very convenient for GW if people would just go to the shop every few weeks and buy the lastest stuff.

A lot of players want to HAVE FUN with their products, and THE FUN includes discussing it, praising it, criticizing it, arguing about it, make jokes about it and all the things people do on Dakka and other forums.

That's why shutting down fan forums is a bad idea.

Hosting is just no where near as expensive as it once was due to prevelance of fiber optics and drastically increased hard drive capacities (both for a fraction of the cost that they were years ago)

I dont buy it that a small fansite needs a ton of money to run.. my wife hosts all her websites which have a decent amount of daily traffic for a low yearly cost

However, it is quite irritating how GW seems INTENT on destroying their own games (IE specialist games).. I honestly do not understand .. since those games are basically ONLY supported via fan communities

Eh, those fansite owners weren't doing themselves or their visitors any favors by not complying with GW's legal guidelines thats easily and readily available. The 'donation' button also seems pretty dubious since those are small-scale sites that literally have a tiny fraction of the traffic that Dakka experiences. Undoubtedly they pocketed the donated money for their own profit which is understandable but unethical.

Does GW look like a bully? Face value, maybe. But in the legal game they're playing it right and in some of those fansites they were ripping GW material like you'd find on a torrent. To GW and the rest of the legal world; those fansites were in the wrong and deserve to be rectified or shut down. Its also interesting that instead of changing the name or their behavior to comply with GW's and the legal world's reasonable standards, the owners are shutting down or handing over the site to others. Makes their motives for running a fansite look even more dubious.

Smaller forums I've discovered are also havens for illegally acquired content. I remember printing out the 5th edition codex from someone's camera phone pictures posted on a small IG forum. Big ones like Dakka have the mods and the ethic to quickly shut down such behavior whereas smaller communities, from my experience, do not. In some cases its even encouraged to post codices, etc.

The point of the people arguing against GW in the thread is that while they have a point, there were less abrasive ways of going about getting their message across.
When dealing with dedicated fans this is probably best practice.
Also, the only people on the list with any suggestion of ripping off GW material are the dudes with the fan made Dark Heresy character stuff. If you have evidence the rest were all pushing piracy, give it, otherwise your speculation is useless and just muddies the waters.
GW could have politely asked for people to stop leeching bandwidth and gotten them to put disclaimers acknowledging that they are not GW or endorsed by GW on the websites. That would have solved the issue quickly, politely and quietly. It would not have gotten them a negative fan reaction and would have meant that the fan forums could keep running, GW's bandwidth was not being leeched and their IP was protected.

And Fan sites ARE NOT IP VIOLATIONS...at least by US law.

Dave47 wrote:Obviously, no one knows "the full story." But that's a stupid standard for debate; one that is never met on the internet or elsewhere.

Well, I think you've hit on why a lot of internet discussion is fairly worthless. Why be responsible about the basis for one's opinions when you can immediately and nearly anonymously post any idea that comes to mind? Knowing every single possible facet and fact is impossible. Investigating the facts before assuming you understand all parties motivations and goals, which is what I was advocating, is entirely possible and I think you'll find it is the standard for debates among reasonable people everywhere. (I don't mean that you're unreasonable, just that you're taking my points to unnecessary extremes that I didn't intend.)

When people tell us that C&D letters represented the first communication from Games Workshop, why do you assume they are lying?

I don't think they're lying. I think they're puzzled and upset. I think they turn to the members of the community they've fostered, throw their hands up, and vent. And those guys let the other communities they are a pat of know about, and pretty soon we're all venting. The whole thing snowballs (see your standards for internet opinions above) into a bawfest/ragestorm of utter inconsequence. Meanwhile, the guys who are serious about preserving their communities have shaken off the initial funk and are setting about to the investigation stage I was talking about earlier. They wipe their eyes, blow their nose, and try to figure out how they can cease and desist. That's what's going on over at Dark Reign and godspeed to them.

GW could come up with a solution that would allow the fansites to keep their domain names . . . a company with a better ear for public relations could easily come to a compromise instead of treating their dedicated fans like internet pirates.

But wait, many of the fans are proud, self-confessed pirates. Just look at the current "do you buy your codices" poll or the many, many threads where people have defended their God-give, Cnstitutional, self-evident and inherent right to recast. Speaking of which, we can't pretend that fansites aren't a place where people get together to streamline their ideas about how to, form the company's point of view, creatively screw the company over in those ways. Dakka has a very middle of the road policy about this. The mods around here aren't thought police (you can be honest about your piracy) but I think they make it clear where the lines are. As was mentioned, Dark Reign has at least some content that was directly (and notoriously) ripping of Dark Heresy products. I don't think that kind of thing would fly around here.

Manchu wrote:GW hasn't killed your parents here.

Can't your entire post be turned on its head, Manchu? It's not like these Blood Bowl fansites have murdered anyone's parents, so what's the big deal with them using the word "Blood Bowl" in their domain name! And similarly, how can you step in and defend GW when you, like, don't know the whole story, man!

It's pretty simple about the domain names. The fansites are in the wrong. As insaniak pointed out, you can be mad that GW has only called them on it now or is calling them on it in an inappropriately harsh way (the point I question) but you can't actually defend using GW IP in your domain name as rightful. Finally, I'm only defending GW by saying that people don't know/aren't interested in (because they'd rather be up on their high horse) the whole story so that last bit of flippancy turns out to be rather lame.

Da Boss wrote:GW could have politely asked for people to stop leeching bandwidth and gotten them to put disclaimers acknowledging that they are not GW or endorsed by GW on the websites. That would have solved the issue quickly, politely and quietly. It would not have gotten them a negative fan reaction and would have meant that the fan forums could keep running, GW's bandwidth was not being leeched and their IP was protected.

While getting a letter from a legal department from the company you're site is based off is no fun; I don't see how the letter they wrote wasn't done professionally. They even wrote a follow-up letter that seemed pretty polite and also again, professional. The sites were given the option of staying around as long as they complied with GW's very reasonable and readily available legal standards.

Cane wrote:

Da Boss wrote:GW could have politely asked for people to stop leeching bandwidth and gotten them to put disclaimers acknowledging that they are not GW or endorsed by GW on the websites. That would have solved the issue quickly, politely and quietly. It would not have gotten them a negative fan reaction and would have meant that the fan forums could keep running, GW's bandwidth was not being leeched and their IP was protected.

While getting a letter from a legal department from the company you're site is based off is no fun; I don't see how the letter they wrote wasn't done professionally. They even wrote a follow-up letter that seemed pretty polite and also again, professional. The sites were given the option of staying around as long as they complied with GW's very reasonable and readily available legal standards.

Yep and because of this GW is in the wrong, crushing their fan-base, ignoring how people feel, leaching off the hard work of the fans and is utterly evil- and anyone who sees it as well reasoned as that is branded a fan-boi (There may be a hint of sarcasm here)

I actually see GW's response as a sensible way to deal with the issue of the websites- and although people think it could have been done better, it was done well enough and could have been done a hell of a lot worse. I don't really see how anyone can argue that nothing should be done because of the issues revolving around protecting your IP.

Bignutter wrote:

Cane wrote:

Da Boss wrote:GW could have politely asked for people to stop leeching bandwidth and gotten them to put disclaimers acknowledging that they are not GW or endorsed by GW on the websites. That would have solved the issue quickly, politely and quietly. It would not have gotten them a negative fan reaction and would have meant that the fan forums could keep running, GW's bandwidth was not being leeched and their IP was protected.

While getting a letter from a legal department from the company you're site is based off is no fun; I don't see how the letter they wrote wasn't done professionally. They even wrote a follow-up letter that seemed pretty polite and also again, professional. The sites were given the option of staying around as long as they complied with GW's very reasonable and readily available legal standards.

Yep and because of this GW is in the wrong, crushing their fan-base, ignoring how people feel, leaching off the hard work of the fans and is utterly evil- and anyone who sees it as well reasoned as that is branded a fan-boi (There may be a hint of sarcasm here)

I actually see GW's response as a sensible way to deal with the issue of the websites- and although people think it could have been done better, it was done well enough and could have been done a hell of a lot worse. I don't really see how anyone can argue that nothing should be done because of the issues revolving around protecting your IP.

QFT (Cane & BigN)

Maybe GW should send a free torch and pitchfork with every order. That might reflect adequate knowledge of the fanbase.

Cane wrote:But in the legal game they're playing it right and in some of those fansites they were ripping GW material like you'd find on a torrent. To GW and the rest of the legal world; those fansites were in the wrong and deserve to be rectified or shut down.

Manchu wrote:But wait, many of the fans are proud, self-confessed pirates. Just look at the current "do you buy your codices" poll or the many, many threads where people have defended their God-give, Cnstitutional, self-evident and inherent right to recast.

So, you don't want to pass judgment on GW until you hear the full story, but it's totally ok to pass judgment that these sites are internet pirates based on... What exactly? Obviously some fan sites out there do cross the line, but casting such a wide net in analogizing "fan sites" with "internet pirates" is inappropriate.

Manchu wrote:

Bignutter wrote:

Cane wrote:

Da Boss wrote:GW could have politely asked for people to stop leeching bandwidth and gotten them to put disclaimers acknowledging that they are not GW or endorsed by GW on the websites. That would have solved the issue quickly, politely and quietly. It would not have gotten them a negative fan reaction and would have meant that the fan forums could keep running, GW's bandwidth was not being leeched and their IP was protected.

While getting a letter from a legal department from the company you're site is based off is no fun; I don't see how the letter they wrote wasn't done professionally. They even wrote a follow-up letter that seemed pretty polite and also again, professional. The sites were given the option of staying around as long as they complied with GW's very reasonable and readily available legal standards.

Yep and because of this GW is in the wrong, crushing their fan-base, ignoring how people feel, leaching off the hard work of the fans and is utterly evil- and anyone who sees it as well reasoned as that is branded a fan-boi (There may be a hint of sarcasm here)

I actually see GW's response as a sensible way to deal with the issue of the websites- and although people think it could have been done better, it was done well enough and could have been done a hell of a lot worse. I don't really see how anyone can argue that nothing should be done because of the issues revolving around protecting your IP.

QFT (Cane & BigN)

Maybe GW should send a free torch and pitchfork with every order. That might reflect adequate knowledge of the fanbase.

You see, I don't think that it does adequately reflect the fanbase- just a very noisy minority who have an axe to grind for some reason. It seems to come up that certain people will always see GW in a bad light no matter what. The likes who complain about new models coming out because they "ruin it for those with the old ones" or don't like new army books or rule books coming out because it seems to them to be a "money grabbing evil corporateness" regardless of any good that comes of such releases.

Sure GW may in your eyes have some downsides- but I on the whole feel there are a great many more good things including some kick ass models, fun games and places I have hung out and made friends with staff and gamers alike.

I've noticed on the 3 or so threads about this that some of those old "GW is pure evil" type posts cropping up again and people seeming to get quite upset- and then lashing out at anyone who shows any support for GW. I think its fine that they have their opinions, and I may not agree with them, but I'd prefer not get flamed for holding a different opinion.

Bignutter, WTF? I never said GW were evil. Or that you were a fanboy. Stop putting words in my mouth and constructing the argument you want to fight against, it's very annoying. If you'd read what I wrote, you'd understand that I have no problem whatsoever with GW protecting their IP, and definitely no problem with them stopping bandwidth leeching. No where did I say that these actions were wrong, or that I disagreed with them. What I think was a bad move on GW's part was using a Cease and Desist letter with a threat of further action on these forums and also requesting the donations button be taken down. Legal action did not need to be threatened as a first port of call, a friendlier and less aggressive approach would be to simply contact them and ASK, while explaining the situation and the options to resolve it. It's the difference between asking and telling, and while you may not see it as important, many do, and that does not mean they endorse any illegal activities, think GW is evil, or have an axe to grind.

@Dave47: I think you'l just have to reread my post because responding to your last one would just be repeating myself.

@BigN: You're right, of course, it is a very loud minority of people who've hated GW for a long time and are always ready to pounce on the chance to decry their actions. But I suppose to them I look like the fanboy who's always ready to jump to the megacorp's defense. Point is, nothing satisfies some folks who will live and die atop their high horse.

@Da Boss: Right, as stated, receiving anunexpected letter from lawyers is jarring. I think that's just what happens when the private sector crosses paths with the private citizen. It's like shaking hands with a Titan--whether he means to or not, his grip sorta crushes your hand.

I'm sorry Da Boss- that was not directed at you- I had read what you have written and am sorry if you feel that any unhappyness was directed at you.

Okay, right. I should probably cool my jets a bit. Thank you for the apology and sorry myself for going on a mild rant.

@ Da Boss: GW's C&D letters and its follow up letter were conducted professionally and reasonably. From a legal and company standpoint its up to the legal staff to handle situations like these and since its a legal situation it requires legal work such as the letters they sent. These sites were given the opportunity to shape up and continue and its follow up letter shows that GW does care about its fans; imo there's not much sympathy or worthwhile excuses for these sites since GW has had their legal information readily available and they conducted this whole matter professionally.

Bignutter wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Bignutter wrote:

Cane wrote:

Da Boss wrote:GW could have politely asked for people to stop leeching bandwidth and gotten them to put disclaimers acknowledging that they are not GW or endorsed by GW on the websites. That would have solved the issue quickly, politely and quietly. It would not have gotten them a negative fan reaction and would have meant that the fan forums could keep running, GW's bandwidth was not being leeched and their IP was protected.

While getting a letter from a legal department from the company you're site is based off is no fun; I don't see how the letter they wrote wasn't done professionally. They even wrote a follow-up letter that seemed pretty polite and also again, professional. The sites were given the option of staying around as long as they complied with GW's very reasonable and readily available legal standards.

Yep and because of this GW is in the wrong, crushing their fan-base, ignoring how people feel, leaching off the hard work of the fans and is utterly evil- and anyone who sees it as well reasoned as that is branded a fan-boi (There may be a hint of sarcasm here)

I actually see GW's response as a sensible way to deal with the issue of the websites- and although people think it could have been done better, it was done well enough and could have been done a hell of a lot worse. I don't really see how anyone can argue that nothing should be done because of the issues revolving around protecting your IP.

QFT (Cane & BigN)

Maybe GW should send a free torch and pitchfork with every order. That might reflect adequate knowledge of the fanbase.

You see, I don't think that it does adequately reflect the fanbase- just a very noisy minority who have an axe to grind for some reason. It seems to come up that certain people will always see GW in a bad light no matter what. The likes who complain about new models coming out because they "ruin it for those with the old ones" or don't like new army books or rule books coming out because it seems to them to be a "money grabbing evil corporateness" regardless of any good that comes of such releases.

Sure GW may in your eyes have some downsides- but I on the whole feel there are a great many more good things including some kick ass models, fun games and places I have hung out and made friends with staff and gamers alike.

I've noticed on the 3 or so threads about this that some of those old "GW is pure evil" type posts cropping up again and people seeming to get quite upset- and then lashing out at anyone who shows any support for GW. I think its fine that they have their opinions, and I may not agree with them, but I'd prefer not get flamed for holding a different opinion.

Agreed, and that sort of thing is what you'll find on basically all forums similar to GW fansites. Whether its World of Warcraft or TV shows like Top Gear; there's always a vocal and passionate minority trying to demonize and polarize the site's focus.

Cane: We'll have to disagree on that point. I think they could have handled this without the C&D letters, and they would have been better off if they had approached it that way.

Da Boss wrote:Okay, right. I should probably cool my jets a bit. Thank you for the apology and sorry myself for going on a mild rant.

It seems to be quite fashionable... even I got caught up in it

Here's one to mull over: Why is GW suddenly so insane about it's IP?

Answer: Because it would seem it doesn't actually own it in some countries.

I ran this by some attorneys, who have agreed with me that GW doesn't have a leg to stand on in most of these cases. Further, their own claim of ownership of the IP is, itself, somewhat questionable, as US copyright law forbids recognition of a copyright contingent on US participation in the Berne Convention.

Further I might refer to the 1976 copyright act: In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work.

So, in theory, as long as you did not plagiarize the original text, you could re-write any Games Workshop rule system and sell it perfectly legally in the US.

Now, that can claim trademark, which might hold water.

BaronIveagh wrote:Here's one to mull over: Why is GW suddenly so insane about it's IP?

I think someone in the other thread mentioned the trade-marks being up for renewal this yeah- hence having to be seen to protect them

Wow, port maw, really?

Somnicide wrote:Wow, port maw, really?

Yeah that one was a bit of a shock. Seems to be a pattern with the specialist games. Those games have so little official support that people have taken to making their own (sometimes high quality like Warp Rift) stuff up which GW is not happy with.