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insaniak wrote:

BeefyG wrote:Insaniak, wouldn't you agree that the defense of their copyright concerning historical content although "sure they can" means the inevitable destruction/loss of that resource forever for everyone and that equals LAME for the people who care about it?

Not really. The old books are all still out there. They're mostly not that difficult to get a hold of.

What explicitly do you mean by "...out there." If you mean available electronically by any other means than through official GW providers then that is illegal and that's what they are burning.

I'm talking about bloodbowl content as I'm not sure about any of the other stuff. There are several articles, miniature catalogues and magazine issues that were hosted by Galak that are not available through any GW means whatsoever nowadays.

BeefyG wrote:What explicitly do you mean by "...out there." If you mean available electronically by any other means than through official GW providers then that is illegal and that's what they are burning.

By 'out there' I mean still available if you look for it.

eBay. Bartertown. Second Hand Bookstores. Garage Sales. Wargaming Forum trading areas. Gaming Clubs. That old guy who comes into the store every week but nobody talks to much because he's a little odd.

There are plenty of options for tracking down out of print material legally.

I'm talking about bloodbowl content as I'm not sure about any of the other stuff. There are several articles, miniature catalogues and magazine issues that were hosted by Galak that are not available through any GW means whatsoever nowadays.

I don't know how much web exclusive Bloodbowl content there was, if any... I'm fairly sure there was at least one compilation book printed, and of course, back issues of White Dwarf aren't that hard to find.

Even for anything web exclusive, though... it really just comes back to the fact that it's GW's material, and it's up to them how and when it gets distributed. While they may or may not have any immediate interest in supporting Bloodbowl, that may change. If they rerelease the game, and decide to also reprint some of that old material to go along with it, websites offering that material illegally for free is going to damage their sales.

So, yeah, it would be lovely for GW to say 'Yeah, it's open slather... post what you want' ... but they're a business. They have to protect what's theirs. Even if they never rerelease this particular product, they need to apply the same rules as to that other product that they might rerelease.

At least, that's my understanding of it all. I'm not a lawyer, and I've never run a multinational wargaming company.

NAVARRO wrote:
Thanks mate, I'm covered on my site since i do my own artwork and use general urls and no hiperlinks etc... yet I'm still not sure how to act here on dakka.
I know its their IP and i know this is a polemic subject and many diferent people accept it diferently but the big question for me is:

I want to post on the dakka news forums a new GW release... can I post or link it? Because we( kind of?) know GW position in that issue.
I ussually find some miniature related news on the net and post it here... or for example someone asks for a painting advice and theres a cool GW tutorial i could link it... How is that action considered here knowing now GW stance?

I think I get how this one works... you post a link to the article on their website...

like so :http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/home.jsp

What you don't do is post the images or the words from the article on here...

In otherwords you send people to the info on their site.. instead of posting said info here.
*and by info I mean stuff that would break IP type legal stuff... like pictures and stuff*

To take things a step further, the reproduced art was created by an individual and sold to Games Workshop. Games Workshop is also protecting the rights of those artists and writers who make their living producing those works. It's expensive and impractical for freelance artists to be able to afford to threaten legal action against anyone who copies their works.

You can, however, take photos of your own GW models, or add your own illustrations based on GW ideas.

I make my living in design. I'm very careful about what I post, because I know full well that once something's on the internet, anyone with bandwidth can grab it and claim it as their own. So I'm pretty supportive of the people who produce actually work, rather than those who feel entitled to take it and display it for their own use.

Mastiff wrote:To take things a step further, the reproduced art was created by an individual and sold to Games Workshop. Games Workshop is also protecting the rights of those artists and writers who make their living producing those works. It's expensive and impractical for freelance artists to be able to afford to threaten legal action against anyone who copies their works.

You can, however, take photos of your own GW models, or add your own illustrations based on GW ideas.

No, you can't, those are considered derivative works.

Also, 'for work' is not recognized under certain circumstances and it then reverts back the the original artist (or their heirs). (for an example of how it can be annulled, see the current legal battle over the ownership of Superman).

Also, if an artist publishes a work, and then later sells the rights to another party, this tends to be limited to the nation that the agreement is signed in unless specifically noted otherwise in the agreement, and may not extend to international rights (example: Netherlands does not recognize implied agreement, therefor artists doing 'for work' art may retain certain international distribution rights.)

Unlike many companies, here at Games Workshop we usually only stop people from using our intellectual property if we must do so in order to protect it (provided that use is by and for hobbyists). For example, the law requires us to protect our trademarks in certain ways - and if we do not - we might lose them. As you can imagine, we do not want to lose our trademarks as we would no longer be able to create the great miniatures and table top hobby wargames that we pride ourselves on!
Games Workshop is a tabletop hobby wargames company however, so we want people to enjoy our IP as much as we do. For example, whilst most companies would not allow you to convert their products, we think that conversions are an integral part of the hobby, so we love them!
Accordingly, you can do quite a lot of things with our intellectual property without having a formal license with us (see the Specific Examples section below for more details on what you can do with our intellectual property), but there are also some general principles that you need to keep in mind, and then there are the things that you definitely cannot do.
PLEASE NOTE that any work you create using our intellectual property is not "owned" by you. It is called a "derivative work" and those parts based upon our IP do not give rise to their own copyright. Please bear this in mind when using our IP.
General Principles

- Please make it clear that your use is unofficial by including some wording to the effect that, for example, "This website is completely unofficial and in no way endorsed by Games Workshop Limited." Are people likely to be confused as to whether your web site or any material was produced by Games Workshop just by looking at it? If so, then you need to alter it. In other words, do not try to make your material look "official."
- Please do not change our trademarks in any way (e.g., stretch or deform them)
- Include an appropriate disclaimer on your web site from the list on the following webpage
- Please make the origins of the intellectual property very clear, in other words, make sure that from a brief review of your material people know that you are unofficially using Games Workshop's intellectual property (and not your own IP or the IP of a third party).
WHAT YOU CANNOT DO WITH GAMES WORKSHOP'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY

Please read the following in conjunction with the What you can do section above and the Specific Examples section below. Other than a few exemptions, Games Workshop is not obliged to let anyone use its IP at all (for example, it's a widely held misconception that you can freely make use of someone else's copyrights, without their permission, as long as it's for your own private use - this is currently not an automatic exemption to copyright), and accordingly we always insist that our IP is treated with the respect that we feel that it deserves.
So, If you are using or want to use our intellectual property and you do not have a written license with us, you must not:
- Use Games Workshop's intellectual property in relation to any commercial activity this includes, for example, paying a printer to print some flyers for you, obtaining sponsorship, or selling non-Games Workshop materials using our trademarks.
- Make any direct copies and/or scans of Games Workshop publications, images, or other materials. This includes any Out-o- Production materials, web site materials, and White Dwarf articles. We would however suggest that you produce your own materials (as long as you follow the other requirements of this policy).
- Use our trademarks in respect of your domain name.
- Use our intellectual property in relation to any third party products or third party intellectual property.
- Alter our trademarks in any way.
- Use any of our IP without appropriately crediting the IP and using the appropriate disclaimers in accordance with this policy (see below).
- Create, distribute, or use any material that is not consistent with the functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of the Warhammer universe as created and owned by Games Workshop
- State that anything that you create using Games Workshop's intellectual property is "official."
- Create, distribute, or use any material that is derogatory, obscene, or offensive.
- Create, distribute, or use any material that devalues any Games Workshop product in any way.
SPECIFIC EXAMPLES
In addition to the above rules, we have additional rules for specific uses of our IP. The following is a definitive list of activities and uses that Games Workshop will usually not take active steps to prevent. If your proposed use is not on the list, it is highly likely that we will not permit it. This list may change from time to time so please check it regularly.
Web Sites

Please don't use one of our trademarks to directly identify your web sit (e.g., "The Space Hulk Home Page"). This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.
This doesn't mean that you can't use our trademarks to talk about our stuff, it just means you need to make it clear that description is the reason why you are using them (e.g., "Cleanse and Burn - my web page dedicated to Games Workshop's Space Hulk game") is fine because you're using our trademarks to simply describe what your web page is about and because it identifies us as the publishers of the game.
Also, please do not use any material from the official Games Workshop websites. Instead, we suggest that you make your own.
Web Names

Please don't use one of our registered trademarks as part of your web domain name. This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.
Educational Use

Unfortunately, we currently cannot give official "permission" for students to use our IP in relation to their studies for reasons of possible licensing conflicts. Unofficial permission would be governed by the remainder of this document and the specific use of the IP. We would point you in the direction of the "fair use" (US) or "fair dealing" (UK) rules in relation to copyright protected materials and research/educational usage. Be aware that there is not an equivalent doctrine for trademark usage.
Maps

We would ask you not to take direct scans or copies of our maps. We suggest that you create your own equivalents. Again, please avoid reproducing our trademarks.
Making Terrain

If you simply make the terrain for yourself and you have no intention of selling it, any use of our IP in relation to your terrain will probably be okay. Do not reproduce our trademarks. However, as always, you cannot use our intellectual property in relation to a commercial activity - if you make and sell terrain, please avoid using any Games Workshop intellectual property in or in relation to that terrain. For example, do not sell it on Ebay as "Warhammer terrain," as it is not Warhammer terrain. Indeed, only Games Workshop could produce Warhammer Terrain.
Bandwidth Theft and Mirroring Resources

We do not tolerate deep linking to the pictures, images, PDFs or other downloads on our website. Such activity is bandwidth theft. Also, do not mirror the resources that we have on our websites. So, if you want other people to see the materials that we have produced, please use a simple HTML link to the relevant web page.
Themes

While we are likely to be happy for you to create your own desktop themes based upon our IP, please do not use our trademarks in those themes. In other words, do not use our logos and symbols, but please do draw your own version of a Wood Elf or Tyranid.
Photos of Painted Models

We encourage fellow hobbyists to show off their painting skills by taking photos of their miniatures and putting the on the site. Please remember to correctly credit the IP - "miniature © Games Workshop 2003. All rights reserved. Used without permission - model painted by xxxxxxx"
Background

Background text is a major part of the hobby and writing your own is almost as much fun as reading it. Please remember to use the correct trademark disclaimer somewhere on your site, zip file and/or document. We would also ask that at the top of the material you state something equivalent to the following: "Death Ravine" an unofficial story by K. Roundtree derived, without permission, upon the Warhammer intellectual property owned by Games Workshop Ltd." Please note that we consider any background material you write to be a work which is derivative of our intellectual property. As such, you should refrain from putting any notice claiming that anyone other than Games Workshop Ltd has any right over Games Workshop-owned intellectual property or derivatives thereof.
Rules

We encourage fellow hobbyists to invent rules that work for them. There is no need to stick precisely to the published rules. However, if you are thinking about making your own Codex for your Space Marine chapter (in addition to following the other guidelines in this policy), please avoid making it look official as this may confuse gamers and amount to a challenge to our trademarks. Also, do not copy our official publications or documents.
Conversions

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:
Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.
Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.
Casting
Do not cast any materials that are based upon Games Workshop material. Games Workshop has to maintain a strict policy on this to fight counterfeiters. We would also remind you that reproduction for personal use is NOT an automatic exclusion in respect of copyright protection in many territories worldwide.
Unreleased Material

While we know that it is always cool to see new material before it arrives on the shelves, we would ask you not to publish, or link to other sites that publish, any material that has not been officially reported or released by Games Workshop. This does not apply to small pieces of conjecture written in your "rumors" section (unless of course said "rumors" are akin to publishing unreleased material).
Forums

We have no problem with people using forums to express their love (or even hate) of the hobby. We would, however, ask people to bear in mind that the hobby is for people all ages. Please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed. We would strongly recommend that you avoid any discussion of illegal behavior.
Movies

The video games that our licensing partners have created have done an incredible job of bringing the Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 games to life, and we appreciate that hobbyists may even want to make movies based upon our intellectual property. Unfortunately, due to the nuances of the law in some territories, we cannot allow any unlicensed movies to be created which are based upon our intellectual property.
Modifications, Total Conversions, and Games

We want people to express their enjoyment of our games with as little interference from us as possible, as long as they behave reasonably with our IP and follow any reasonable requests that we may make. We are not inherently opposed to hobbyists creating games or mods using our IP, in fact we are flattered that people want to spend so much time creating games and mods in the GW universes.
If you want to make a game, TC or a mod using our IP you must adhere to the following (in addition to the general principles as outlined above):
Any game or mod must be a "total conversion." In other words, you must not use our intellectual property (logos, images, names etc.) in relation to the worlds, names, logos, or images of any other company. For example, you cannot place our Space Marines in a Disney total conversion using the Unreal engine, but you could make a TC solely using Space Marines with the Unreal engine. This is, of course, assuming that you have permission to use the Unreal engine.
Please bear in mind that we may require you to remove the game or mod from any public forum at any time so that we can comply with any licenses that we may have with computer game publishers/developers. Be aware that we may even have to insist that the mod be destroyed. Please take very careful note of this statement, as we would not want you to feel unfairly treated at a later date.
The game or mod must be strictly non-commercial - this includes any web site that the mod or game is hosted on. You also cannot pay a printing company to publilsh copies of it onto CD. It may also mean that you cannot get sponsorship.
It must be made clear on any readme files, splash/intro screens and accompanying material that the game or mod is unofficial and the origins of the intellectual property must be made obvious (e.g., your mod might say "Battletoes a total conversion for XXXX (insert game name) using intellectual property owned by Games Workshop. Used without permission...etc." See the relevant disclaimer on the following page.).
The game or mod must not devalue any Games Workshop product in any way.
Any distribution (zipped or otherwise) of the whole, or any part, of the mod or game must be accompanied with the appropriate disclaimers and must also follow these guidelines.
The functionality, atmosphere, and parameters of any mod or game must be consistent with the relevant IP.
Skins
Unfortunately, GW cannot allow thirds parties to use our IP without properly crediting our ownership. It is not possible to credit ownership with skins and accordingly we do not allow their creation.
Online Auctions

Do not use our trademarks in relation to products that are not owned by or originate from Games Workshop (see Making Terrain above).
Do not associate our products or IP with any third party products or IP.
We would encourage you to use digital photographs of any materials that you are planning on selling. Do not use any materials from any GW website to sell the product.
Café Press

We cannot allow users to make and or sell derivatives of our copyright protected material or our trademarks on the café press or any similar websites.
Web Comics

We would probably not take issue with anyone creating a web comic based upon our intellectual property - but as with forums, keep in mind that the hobby is for people of all ages. Please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed. We would strongly recommend that you avoid any topics concerning illegal behavior, obscenity, or libel.
Fonts

Unfortunately, GW cannot allow third parties to use our trademarks without properly crediting our ownership, lest they be damaged. With fonts, it is difficult, if not impossible, to use the marks and credit Games Workshop as rightful owners. Accordingly, do not use our IP in relation to fonts.
Screen Savers

As is the case with fonts, GW cannot allow third parties to use our trademarks without properly crediting our ownership, lest they be damaged. You may only create screen savers if it properly credits our IP. We would also remind you that you cannot alter or change our trademarks in any way.
Animations

We would probably not have a problem with anyone creating animations based upon our intellectual property - as long as there is no commercial connection to that creation. Again, please be careful of the language used and the topics discussed.
Club Names and Trademarks

We actively encourage hobbyists to begin their own clubs connected with the hobby. In fact, in most territories, we have an employee tasked with helping people set up and run their clubs. However, we would advise anyone with a club or starting a club to avoid directly using our trademarks (do not, for example call the club, "The Warhammer Club"). Instead, create your own names, such as "The Hellfire Hunters," "Da Narsty Boarz," or other, far more creative names than these pathetic examples.
Fanzines

Fanzines are a great way to immerse yourself in the hobby. However, if you are thinking about starting a fanzine, please do not use our trademarks. Again, we would remind you that the main principles set out at the head of this page apply to fanzines, as they do to all of the specific examples herein. Importantly, if you are creating a solely GW-focused fanzine, do not sell your fanzine and do not obtain any sponsorship.
Out-of-Print Material

Please do not scan, copy, or republish any out-of-print (OOP) materials. It may be that in the future we reuse or license out the use of this material.
Out of Production Games

We frequently get requests from the older hobbyists out there to make computer versions of our old games - some of you out there will remember games like Blockmania, Chainsaw Warrior and indeed Talisman from many years ago, and a lot of those that do remember them very fondly indeed. There are three good reasons why we cannot allow this - one of which is simply that it will necessarily make use of our copyright in ways that are not permitted anywhere else in this document. Secondly, providing a system for playing the game on the internet effectively means that you could play the game without having ever bought it originally, which therefore devalues Games Workshop products as outlined above. Finally, as with Talisman, it may be that we decide to revisit some of these games at some time in the future to create a better, updated version for all.
Avatars

Avatars and similar monikers are now commonplace on nearly every forum or chat program that you come across. As cool as they may be, they can cause problems if the use our trademarks since we need to maintain the distinctiveness of our trademarks in relation to their origin.
If you want to use avatars and similar monikers, create them yourself and credit the origins of the IP in your message sign off.
T-shirts, Clothes, Tatoos and the Like

As always, we cannot allow third parties to obtain money from our intellectual property.
This effectively means that you would either have to buy Games Workshop T-shirts or clothes or make them yourself. You would not be able to sell any t-shirts or clothes that you make.
This also means that we cannot allow tattoos as an acceptable use of our IP as a third party necessarily has to perform the "service."
Costume Play / Live Role-Play (LRP)

We frequently get requests from the hobbyists out there that love our game worlds so much that they want to make costumes so as to bring them to life even more. To this end, this section does not contain special rules for costumes or live role-play - it is only to say that provided you comply with all the contents of this policy, it is something we are unlikely to object to.
Cardboard or Paper Conversions

Unfortunately, we cannot allow the printing or publishing of such conversions- such action devalues existing GW products.
Special Figures

If you have a web site or gaming club and you want to create something special for that club, it will have to be handmade. You cannot pay third parties to produce any materials using our intellectual property, and "using" is very broadly defined. Also, you should not make a production run of such materials.
Painting Services

We often get e-mails from hobbyists regarding our position on providing painting services for third parties. As always, we do not allow third parties to make money from our IP. Accordingly, any "painting service" must be entirely generic, i.e., it cannot state that it is a Games Workshop, 'Eavy Metal, or Golden Demon painting service. The service must not be based on the intellectual property, i.e., using the intellectual property (images, trademarks etc.) to "sell" itself. Nor must you exclusively paint Games Workshop's miniatures. The same would be true of any painting companion or guide - you must not make money from Games Workshop intellectual property without a license.
Model Conversion Kits

We do not allow unlicensed third parties to manufacture or produce conversion kits for our models. We need to be able to control our products and all derivatives thereto in order that we produce quality products for years to come.
E-mail Lists

Placing scans or copies of any Games Workshop material on an e-mail list or news group is a violation of our rights and amounts to a serious infringement. Please do not participate in this activity, and if you are aware of it, please write to the legal department on the following email address: Legal@games-workshop.co.uk
Thank you very much for your compliance with the above policies. We know that there is a lot here and appreciate that you have taken the time to read it all.
 

You know, Games Workshop should open a tattoo studio too.

Shenanigans would ensue.

@swbruni: Yes, it makes an interesting read, but GW policy does not carry weight of law. There are several things that GW disallows in that document which are, however, legal, and therefor not IP infringement, at least in the US.

Example: the entire conversion section. While, in theory, the conversion could be considered derivative works (depending on just HOW converted it is. If it is not recognizable as GW IP, then a legal argument could be made that it's your own art, therefor, your IP) GW does not have a legal right to tell you that you cannot mod the mini in whatever manner you see fit, as the mini itself is no longer GW's property. There is no EULA on any GW product that you must agree to before purchasing a GW mini, nor, under US law, anyway, may they censure you or demand that you take down an image of a modded mini as to do so would be a violation of the right to free speech (within reason, obviously). They can however, sue you for mass producing said, as they do retain the exclusive right to manufacture their minis.

In addition: as long as a conversion is NOT specifically designed for GW IP, it is perfectly acceptable to make as many of them as you damn well please, as under both US and international law, what your customers do with the product after you sell it to them is their doing, not yours (RIAA v Kazaa). So if you make a range of 28mm heroic heads, it's not your fault if people put them on IG torsos.

That said, they also may not, once again, under US law, attempt to control or manipulate the secondary market for their products, as this would constitute a violation of anti-trust laws.

BaronIveagh wrote:Example: the entire conversion section.

Not a good example, actually, since that section as worded is really just asking you not to do certain things.

They only specifically tell you not to cast such conversions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the hotlinking:

Bignutter wrote:I think I get how this one works... you post a link to the article on their website...

like so :http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/home.jsp

What you don't do is post the images or the words from the article on here...

In otherwords you send people to the info on their site.. instead of posting said info here.
*and by info I mean stuff that would break IP type legal stuff... like pictures and stuff*

That's pretty much what they're asking for, yes. They would prefer you to post the link as that drives traffic to their website, rather than taking the content and using it on your own site, or posting it elsewhere.

How enforcable that is is apparently up for debate. Most forums hotlink pictures from the GW website and have done for years. I suspect it's only become an issue for the websites in question because they had other stuff going on as well. So where GW might not have bothered sending them a C&D over hotlinked images, if they're sending a C&D for some other issue anyway, they might as well include it.

insaniak wrote:

Not a good example, actually, since that section as worded is really just asking you not to do certain things.

They only specifically tell you not to cast such conversions.

Achem... "WHAT YOU CANNOT DO WITH GAMES WORKSHOP'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY "...

...much scrolling down later...

"Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement."

Stating that you cannot do these thigns and that it is a major infringement means that what follows are not just 'suggestions'. I seem to recall recently a complaint on this board about a GW employee implying the same.

GW are simply saying that they are a country in their own right (although stateless) and that their currency (miniatures) falls under similar laws to damage and defacement of a countries legal currency effectively. <end sarcasm>

I think that when somebody decides to sell something (that aren't shares or money) all IP rights to that individual figure in regards to conversions/modification (They could grind it up into little bits to pave their driveway) are forwarded to the person who payed them money for that service.

BaronIveagh wrote:
"3: confirm by return that you will not infringe Games Workshop's intellectual property rights at any time in the future."

This one is neat, they want to turn something that can be ruled both ways (fair use or not of the GW´s IP) in an EULA so next time GW needs to drop the hammer instead of fighting through IP law they can say that the fansite violated a standing contract and turn the whole thing into private law. Very, very neat.

Item plus, the whole "what you can do page" is a bunch of half truths worded in a way to sound absolutes to the lay man. Eg. The club names, as they say Warhammer is a TM in the gaming sector but as Killkrazy pointed in another thread while the Warhammer Club could be contested as a miniatures club name by GW, the Warhammer Club Ancient Armies Renactors, can be used as GW is not into that line of bussiness and even if GW started a line, those guys would have the right to contest GW TM because they were there first (at least according to the US IP law links that some people have been linking). Not that GW needs to mention that in their webpage of course but laws are not absolutes as some people might believe specially UK based companies granting or withholding rights that are not valid in other countries as Baron has already pointed here.

So this brings us to the part that I really love from GW´s webpage, the don´t mix our miniatures with 3rd party things... While GW retains the IP rights to the box art, the sculptures and all other thingies after buying a box I can do anything I want with the 10 little, physical, bits of plastic that come inside because I never signed an EULA with GW saying that I was not going to do that, and those little ten guys (not the design, not the art...) are mine to convert, modify, even to melt in pieces of slag if I want. For allI need to care GW can say that I need to paint them red that unless I agree to that contract between me and GW the clause will be null and void no matter how many times it appears in GW rulebooks, codex, webpage... (and even the EULAs that we sign when joining online games for example, can be and in some places have been taken down for being abusive clauses, IIRC Microsoft tried that in the EU and failed)

M.

BaronIveagh wrote:Stating that you cannot do these thigns and that it is a major infringement means that what follows are not just 'suggestions'.

My point was that in the midst of a page full of things that GW are saying 'Don't do this' there's a section on conversions that says 'Please don't do this...'

Make of that what you will.

Miguelsan wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
"3: confirm by return that you will not infringe Games Workshop's intellectual property rights at any time in the future."

This one is neat, they want to turn something that can be ruled both ways (fair use or not of the GW´s IP) in an EULA so next time GW needs to drop the hammer instead of fighting through IP law they can say that the fansite violated a standing contract and turn the whole thing into private law. Very, very neat.

Ironically, that one can work in the US, but would be not be binding in the Netherlands, where the sys admin in question lives, and therefor could be construed as deception on GW's part.

Miguelsan wrote:

Item plus, the whole "what you can do page" is a bunch of half truths worded in a way to sound absolutes to the lay man. Eg. The club names, as they say Warhammer is a TM in the gaming sector but as Killkrazy pointed in another thread while the Warhammer Club could be contested as a miniatures club name by GW, the Warhammer Club Ancient Armies Renactors, can be used as GW is not into that line of bussiness and even if GW started a line, those guys would have the right to contest GW TM because they were there first (at least according to the US IP law links that some people have been linking). Not that GW needs to mention that in their webpage of course but laws are not absolutes as some people might believe specially UK based companies granting or withholding rights that are not valid in other countries as Baron has already pointed here.

So this brings us to the part that I really love from GW´s webpage, the don´t mix our miniatures with 3rd party things... While GW retains the IP rights to the box art, the sculptures and all other thingies after buying a box I can do anything I want with the 10 little, physical, bits of plastic that come inside because I never signed an EULA with GW saying that I was not going to do that, and those little ten guys (not the design, not the art...) are mine to convert, modify, even to melt in pieces of slag if I want. For allI need to care GW can say that I need to paint them red that unless I agree to that contract between me and GW the clause will be null and void no matter how many times it appears in GW rulebooks, codex, webpage... (and even the EULAs that we sign when joining online games for example, can be and in some places have been taken down for being abusive clauses, IIRC Microsoft tried that in the EU and failed)

M.

My personal favorite is CCP's EULA for EVE Online, which is 'governed by the laws of Iceland' except that some of it's clauses would be found not only unreasonable, but illegal if anyone ever actually took it to court in Iceland.

GW (and some other companies) like to forget that the internet is not just in their country of origin. Microsoft is the funniest. I loved their email to thepiratebay demanding that the Swedish website comply with US laws.

The reason for the 3rd party thing, is, of course, that it blurs GW's exclusive claim to the IP (go figure) and potentially brings them into conflict with people who might have just as many lawyers as they do. Or, god-emperor save us, the items might enter the public domain, and then all sorts of mini makers might come crawling out of the wood work. (This can actually happen. In some countries if the IP is unclear or draws from several different IPs it's considered to be different from a derivative work. Needless to say, GW DOES NOT want something like THAT to happen as it would mean that they would end up surrendering some rights) It also means that there are bits unused floating around on the secondary market, which might reduce their sales.

Personally, I'm waiting for GW's heavy handed approach to get them a counter suit. I'd consider it ironic if they lost a few million for their arrogance over fan sites.

Most people will just comply out of fear of litigation.

I remember DemonBlade games complying with a GW cease and decist over their Orc line, simply because it was less expensive to resculpt the models than it was to fight a legal battle, that they should have won.

The deeper we go on this the weirder it gets... By reading the dont's, specially the dont convert I was wondering something... One thing is dont allow things on their turf/ stores/ tournaments but how can they enforce this in their clients homes? Im no law man yet it seems not only impossible but somewhat illegal to even hint we cannot convert the miniatures the way we want to.

But if theres a law that can make them submit people to their ridiculous random laws just by buying a freaking miniature then Insaniak mate... you and me should really stop converting

BTW thanks on the clarification about linking GW on dakka...

So I assume that 40konline is as good as dead eh?

I don't see what all the fuss is about. That list of stuff is pretty reasonable and polite and basically says

"we're really not too fussed what you do, have fun but don't take the mickey please"

which seems fair enough to me. People seem to just be nit-picking now and looking for faults that either aren't there or are ever likely to be followed up by GW. There is pretty much nothing there that is going to affect 99.9% of people posting on forums as they normally would.

Thanks for posting that, swbruni! I hadn't read it before... it does sound reasonable, actually, although I can understand people getting upset when they've built up a large website, etc. in violation of the copyright without realizing it, and suddenly had to change it.

Cheers,
Steve / RiTides

Johnynoi wrote:I don't see what all the fuss is about. That list of stuff is pretty reasonable and polite and basically says

"we're really not too fussed what you do, have fun but don't take the mickey please"

which seems fair enough to me. People seem to just be nit-picking now and looking for faults that either aren't there or are ever likely to be followed up by GW. There is pretty much nothing there that is going to affect 99.9% of people posting on forums as they normally would.

Johny, reasonable or not, the point was that they're filing C&Ds against people in countries where what they're doing is (in most cases) legal, to the detriment of the fanbase.

Further, I site Beck v Eiland-Hall as legal precedent that TBB was within their rights in the US to use GW's IP in their domain name, as no one would mistake it for an official website.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Mastiff wrote:To take things a step further, the reproduced art was created by an individual and sold to Games Workshop. Games Workshop is also protecting the rights of those artists and writers who make their living producing those works. It's expensive and impractical for freelance artists to be able to afford to threaten legal action against anyone who copies their works.

You can, however, take photos of your own GW models, or add your own illustrations based on GW ideas.

No, you can't, those are considered derivative works.

Yes, they are derivative works. But I'm going by GW's policies.

Also, please do not use any material from the official Games Workshop websites. Instead, we suggest that you make your own.

Unfortunately, we cannot allow the printing or publishing of such conversions- such action devalues existing GW products.
Special Figures


wait didnt they in white dwarf in previous years have CONVERSION CORNER!!!!!!! tells you how to CONVERT(bad word) some of their models and with what pieces hrmmmm... Kinda seems like an oxymoron if you ask me. Also just typing all this online does not in a legal since constitue rights reserved. They have to link or show what articles and subsections to find their copyrights under. Just saying on the overall they play off the whole bank thing alot but in truth somone TAKE THEM TO COURT. Then counter sue for harrassment and if your in the U.S utilize the first amendment people as they sure do a good job infirnging upon it.

Wow there are a lot of lawyers here, or at least people pretending to be. God I love the internet.

theHandofGork wrote:Wow there are a lot of lawyers here, or at least people pretending to be. God I love the internet.

I spy troll off the port bow!

theHandofGork wrote:Wow there are a lot of lawyers here, or at least people pretending to be. God I love the internet.

how do you know some people arent' lawyers? or are you just assuming. Next time you could make your point without comming across negatively. Plus all this is is a open forum of people expressing their concerns. I for one think this is great because it shows more so that we as a collective group love this great product that citadel inc. produces. We are just overly concerned of an alienation from them and as such are voicing our opions in a free and moderate open format. This is what America was founded upon in the basic principles. You dont need to be a lawyer to know laws just have a little bit of sense and a desire for education and knowledge insteqad of ignorance. That is all you may bash me now because most likely you will.

Frazzled wrote:

theHandofGork wrote:Wow there are a lot of lawyers here, or at least people pretending to be. God I love the internet.

I spy troll off the port bow!

Sorry- just saying this has gotten really very silly. Especially since we get a thread like this every month or so in which the same arguments seem to be repeated over and over again.

If people really are interested in IP law issues it seems rather strange to go to Dakka for info rather than an actual book on the subject.

Oh, and I'm off your starboard bow btw.

We encourage fellow hobbyists to show off their painting skills by taking photos of their miniatures and putting the on the site. Please remember to correctly credit the IP - "miniature © Games Workshop 2003. All rights reserved. Used without permission - model painted by xxxxxxx"

ROFLMAO!!!

Are they serious?

Who does this?

Just about every website that has pics of any painted GW miniature, including eBay, is hosed if they enforce this.

Ok, so if I wanted to a fan site based on Space Marines, how do I do it (but make it findable) without infringe GW's IP? If you can't use any of their "protected" words / phrases in your URL, won't that make it harder for you to promote your site?

What about Meta tags, surely as they are used to identify your site they are used in a way that is infringing on GW's IP as they are used as is, not in a descriptive paragraph. GW imply that by using the IP protected words in the Meta tags section you are causing potential confusion?

Examples:

Years ago I used my design skills and love of Space Wolves to create a site about them. I did just because I could. The following is some text from one of the pages;

Planet Fenris

For a man born on a Dragonship, the vastness of space holds no fears.

To a Fenrisian it matters not that his ship sails the mighty oceans of his planet, or between the Emperor's stars.

Born to battle, it is an unwary foe who lets the ships of the Space Wolf chapter get within boarding range. To Russ' wolves a boarding action is the chance to win more glory.

Many an enemy captain has lost his ship to packs of ravaging Blood Claws, his crew torn apart by bolter and chainsword.

For does not the chapter banner show a mighty wolf striding amongst the stars?

As you can see there are the terms Blood Claws, Fenris, Space Wolf and bolter used. Now I would imagine GW wouldn't have a problem with this format. Lets take a look at how Meta tags work:

<meta name="keywords" content="28mm, 15mm, SoTR, FoW, Urban War, Urban Mammoth, Secrets of the Third Reich, Malifaux, Flames of War, Warhammer, Warhammer 40,000, Rules of Engagement, AK47, PBI, Peter Pig, Uncharted Seas, Hordes, Warmachine, Wargaming, War Gaming" />

This example is taken from my club website. As you can see the format is completely different. Surely if I had listed a load of Trademark protected Space Marine & Space Wolf terms into my meta tags I would be breaking GW's IP. I would be using their IP to promote my site, which breaks their usage rules and if that's the case GW will be getting one huge bill from their lawyers for all the C&D letters they will need to send out.

theHandofGork wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

theHandofGork wrote:Wow there are a lot of lawyers here, or at least people pretending to be. God I love the internet.

I spy troll off the port bow!

Sorry- just saying this has gotten really very silly. Especially since we get a thread like this every month or so in which the same arguments seem to be repeated over and over again.

If people really are interested in IP law issues it seems rather strange to go to Dakka for info rather than an actual book on the subject.

Oh, and I'm off your starboard bow btw.

I went over IP law issues every day at work for 3 years while I was the VP of internet sales for a now defunct .com (not my fault, owner decided to close shop and retire)

Why people talk about it on dakka is that the group mindset is heavily rules oriented, and when something has the appearance of breaking the rules in a way that effects such a group, it becomes a matter of discussion.

Wolfstan wrote:Ok, so if I wanted to a fan site based on Space Marines, how do I do it (but make it findable) without infringe GW's IP? If you can't use any of their "protected" words / phrases in your URL, won't that make it harder for you to promote your site?

What about Meta tags, surely as they are used to identify your site they are used in a way that is infringing on GW's IP as they are used as is, not in a descriptive paragraph. GW imply that by using the IP protected words in the Meta tags section you are causing potential confusion?

They are pretty specific about URLs, not Metatags.

Web Sites
Please don't use one of our trademarks to directly identify your web site (e.g., "The Space Hulk Home Page"). This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.
This doesn't mean that you can't use our trademarks to talk about our stuff, it just means you need to make it clear that description is the reason why you are using them (e.g., "Cleanse and Burn - my web page dedicated to Games Workshop's Space Hulk game") is fine because you're using our trademarks to simply describe what your web page is about and because it identifies us as the publishers of the game.
Also, please do not use any material from the official Games Workshop websites. Instead, we suggest that you make your own.

Web Names
Please don't use one of our registered trademarks as part of your web domain name. This right is reserved for GW companies and formal licensees only.

I know people were complaining that if TalkBloodBowl.com changes it's name to TalkFantasyFootball.com they'll never be found, but that's not how it works. The metatags, H1 tags, alt tags etc. can still use names like "Blood Bowl" and will get still found using a search engine. The URL is only one component of Search Engine Optimization, and not necessarily the most important.

The determination of ownership of URLs has been a rapidly growing part of the legal industry, but to my knowledge Metatags aren't part of this, since no one registers or owns metatags. In fact, companies often use their competitor's names in their metatags to try and siphon off search inquiries.