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MasterSlowPoke wrote:There's no way to destroy an Ork fast vehicle moving flat out on the owner's movement phase.

kirsanth wrote:And this confuses me - why is this the case?

InquisitorFabius wrote:There is no way to have a vehicle destroyed in your own movement phase as an Ork.

Perhaps I should rephrase.
The sentence itself was perfectly fine.
The reason for stating it is what confused me -- thus the question at the end.

I'm on the side of being able to get out as per the disembarkation rules quoted above. Not being able to embark/disembark from a vehicle moving flat out only applies to that single phase, and ends when that players shooting phase begins.

To me, there are alot of reasons why you wouldn't want entire transport squads dying from shooting or enemy assault without getting out. It just wouldn't make sense that everyone would die every time. For example, in the case of the OP, if Ork Nobs have the agility to start pounding and crawling on a Wave Serpent that moved (note: not 'is moving') flat out, as if the Eldar Dire Avengers - trained for decades to get in and out of their boat - can't just open the door and hop out.

The flat out occurs in the players movement. After that, the driver has momentum to be sure (thus the cover), but normal control. That is why if the vehicle is wrecked by friendly or enemy fire or assault, the troops inside can get out.

InquisitorFabius wrote:There is no way to have a vehicle destroyed in your own movement phase as an Ork.

Move flat out and fail a dangerous terrain test

That just immobilizes the Trukk.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:That just immobilizes the Trukk.

Er duh... I fail, been playing eldar too much lol

Now I see what the statement regards, and it should be right. I think the "no way to" part always makes me wonder -- even when correct.

Doesn't reinforced Ram let you Ram?

It only lets you Tank Shock. Let's not go there, though.

This is a "How you would play it" post... since the Skimmer gets the benefit of moving flat out in the opponent's turn i.e. obscured save, it should also suffer the penalties and affect passengers the same way. This introduces a risk vs. reward scenario that is conducive to game balance and should be present in good rules design.

Of course, I just used "game balance" and "good rules design" when talking about a GW game... and we know those don't always go together.

The Green Git wrote:This is a "How you would play it" post... since the Skimmer gets the benefit of moving flat out in the opponent's turn i.e. obscured save, it should also suffer the penalties and affect passengers the same way. This introduces a risk vs. reward scenario that is conducive to game balance and should be present in good rules design.

Of course, I just used "game balance" and "good rules design" when talking about a GW game... and we know those don't always go together.

Well you are partly right, except this already exists in the rules structure.

Skimmer moving flat out in your movement phase:
Reward: get to move 24"
Risk: If you fail a Dangerous terrain roll, the unit is destroyed.

Skimmer which has moved flat out in your previous movement phase:
Reward: 4+ cover
Risk: Immobalized results destroy your vehicle instead.

There is already a risk associated with each reward when considering the effects of moving flat out.

As far as the Ork vehicle moving fast-Truk with a Ram tank shocks, opponent Death or Glories, Truk blown up. Destroyed in it's own movement phase, right?

Yep, passangers unable to disembark (which is all of them) are destroyed.

kirsanth wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

I thought that was the only way troops could die inside a transport, If a fast transport goes flat out and dies then those indide are dead.

Orks with fast ramshakle vehicals seems to be the exception to the rule again too (if someone could clarify) as it says "and apply the result instead of the usual effects".

I must be missing something, even if the Ork table is used, the models cannot disembark if it moves flat out, no?
Even with "Kerrunch!" instead of normal, any models inside are still going to have an issue being there is a restriction on disembarking at all.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:There's no way to destroy an Ork fast vehicle moving flat out on the owner's movement phase.

And this confuses me - why is this the case?

It's the instead of the usual effects (not being able toget out etc) so if they'd normally die from not being able to disembark... do this stuff instead =P ????

Investigating the way the codex says to replace the damage results has actually brought me to an unexpected conclusion: the rule Ramshackle actually has no effect.

Ork Codex p.41 wrote: If a trukk suffers a Vehicle Destroyed! or Vehicle Explodes! (wrecked) result, roll on the Ramshackle table below and apply the result instead of the usual effects.

There are no results on the damage table that matches those. The Ramshackle rule technically does not ever get triggered because of this.

What rule book are you looking at?

Pg. 110 The quick reference sheet, Vehicle damage table D6 result of 5 gives - Destroyed - Wrecked a 6 gives Destroyed - Explodes! (which counts as wrecked as per the clarification in ork codex)

You are reading it. They are not exactly the same, are they. The use of a proper noun denotes a specific result. Vehicle Destroyed! is not the same a Damaged - Wrecked, nor is Vehicle Explodes! the same as Destroyed - Explodes!. Now RAP everyone is going to overlook that the names do not match, but the RAW here actually does not technically work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rap = rules as played

Dracos wrote:You are reading it. They are not exactly the same, are they. The use of a proper noun denotes a specific result. Vehicle Destroyed! is not the same a Damaged - Wrecked, nor is Vehicle Explodes! the same as Destroyed - Explodes!. Now RAP everyone is going to overlook that the names do not match, but the RAW here actually does not technically work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rap = rules as played

Ah I missed that first swing thanks

Destroyed- Wrecked (by whatever means!): Passengers must disembark. If the can't, they're croaked.

Fast Transports: May not embark onto or disembark from a vehicle that has moved flat out in that movement phase.

Units normally embark or disembark during movement phase, obviously.
Being forced to disembark by a "Destroyed-wrecked" forces a unit to disembark in another phase. It's clearly not the same thing at all. Must vs May, Forced vs Voluntary. Disembarking from a wreck isn't even a movement on the unit's part, it's an effect, a result of the vehicle damage, a consequence.

If RAI was that passengers would die from a Fast Skimmer crash, RAW would've said so (that is, in a perfect world where GW rules writers know how to write rules without leaving tons of grey areas ^^). So I don't believe the no disembarking after flat out applies here since this all happens in different phases. If you can't put the models on the table though... well, tough luck.


That's how I see it.

InquisitorBob wrote:
Being forced to disembark by a "Destroyed-wrecked" forces a unit to disembark in another phase.

In the starting example yes, but not necessarily. As has been pointed out, you could flat out -> tank shock -> get wrecked on their death or glory attack and have it occur in your movement phase.

How I call it:

The disembark rules are generous, allowing for disembarkation from places other than the access points if those are blocked. This along with other 5E rules changes (deep strike mishaps, reserves auto-deploy on turn 5, etc.) shows the intent to let models enter play whenever possible and to reduce instances of units "removed without a shot fired".

If we say the models are destroyed upon a vehicle "destroyed-wrecked" result, it makes that result worse than the "destroyed-explodes!" result since the latter does not call for disembarkation but rather to place the models where the vehicle was. IMO, "destroyed-explodes!" should be worse than "destroyed-wrecked".

With these points in mind, the RAI is that passenger models should be allowed to disembark from a wreck unless completely blocked by impassible terrain or enemy models.

I am pretty sure..."in that movement phase" that some are reading is in reference to, if the vehicle moved "in that movement phase" not they cant disembark "in that movement phase".

I think that the "In that movement phase" is just simply stating that if the vehicle moved flat out "in that movement phase", that no disembarkation is possible until it hits a movement phase it doesn't move flat out. Not as many interpret that the no disembarkation is only for that movement phase.

We have been playing it this way since launch and it does work quite well.

I believe it is even clarified as well in the Adepticon rules as well. (At work now so can't check.)

I know that calling on common sense in real world examples in kinda futile for a table top wargame, but it does make sense that if you are in a helicopter racing for the battle field at 250mph and someone shoots it down, You are proabably gunna die, or at least gunna be out of the battle.

Same discussion, different thread..............

Well, assuming that by Adepticon rules you mean the INAT:

RB.70H.01 – Q: If a transport vehicle is „Destroyed‟ in the same movement phase it is declared to be moving „flat out‟ (when ramming another vehicle, for example) are the models onboard destroyed?
A: Yes, in this case all models onboard count as being destroyed [clarification].

Notice that they mention same movement phase................??

"that movement phase" is referring to the movement phase in which the vehicle moved flat out. Nothing states or indicates that the inability to disembark carries over past that movement phase. It's really that simple.

Real world, common sense, fluff, etc, have absolutely zero bearing on the rules.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:There's no way to destroy an Ork fast vehicle moving flat out on the owner's movement phase.

And this confuses me - why is this the case?

Because they can't ram... However I presume they could be destroyed by an Immobilised result from a difficult terrain test? Unless someone can correct me (I don't have the Ork codex).

I hate this section of the rules, its contradiction on contradition, and I feel the rules need to be changed to be clearer and say what they mean

Agreed.

FlingitNow wrote:Because they can't ram... However I presume they could be destroyed by an Immobilised result from a difficult terrain test? Unless someone can correct me (I don't have the Ork codex).

That is for skimmers, iirc. I had thought for a bit that trucks could tank shock as well, or that battlewagons were fast.

Oops.

Err wait. . . I was half right - maybe. LOL

It could happen on a DoG, I guess.

Correct, no ramming, no immobilized equals destroyed ala fast skimmer, means an Ork Trukk cannot kill itself during it's own movement phase.

"destroyed-explodes!" result since the latter does not call for disembarkation but rather to place the models where the vehicle was.

Wrong! Page 79 states that the Vehicle explodes result is a type of forced disembarkation.

In clearly states that the model must have moved flat out in that movement phase for the disembarkation to be not allowed. Hence either that means the disembarkation is not allowed only in that movement phase or that the disembarkation is not allowed until you get to a point when the model has not moved flat out in that movement phase. Use of that rather than his is critical here by the Orks assault phase the model has not moved flat out that movement phase as it was the Orks movement phase.

Hence the only difference is if the vehicle gets blown in your assault or shooting phase. Which is so unlikely that it is not really worth arguing about unless it actually crops up and in that case RaW is not specific.


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Too used to Tau, Eldar and Marines where everything fast is a skimmer...

Yeah they can be done by death or glory in their own turn this is the only way for them to get this result in their own movement phase.

In clearly states that the model must have moved flat out in that movement phase for the disembarkation to be not allowed. Hence either that means the disembarkation is not allowed only in that movement phase or that the disembarkation is not allowed until you get to a point when the model has not moved flat out in that movement phase.

This is what we have to find out.

My understanding is that it is the later but Don Mundo sees it as the former.

Can anyone find anything clarifying definitively either side.

Norseman wrote:or that the disembarkation is not allowed until you get to a point when the model has not moved flat out in that movement phase.

This confuses me. Once it has moved flat out in a movement phase, you will never get to a point where it has not done so.

In it's next turn it has not moved, yet. So is not limited by having moved Flat out.

kirsanth is just making the scholastic point that you cannot change history - once you have moved a vehicle flat out in a given Movement phase it will forever have moved flat out in that Movement phase, regardless if you do something else in the following Movement phases.

So whats are the ramifications of using "that movement phase" instead of "the movement phase"?

Well, if the rules said "the movement phase" it would be reasonable to say that once a transport has moved flat out in a given movement phase, the passengers may never again disembark - they are locked inside forever! "That movement phase" defines the phase the effect lasts for. Once that movement phase is over, the effect wears out. Otherwise, page 70 should have read "until its controller's next movement phase".

Notice that the wording of the skimmer rules are entirely different: "a skimmer that is immobilized (...) is destroyed (wrecked) if it moved flat out in its last turn".

I just realized that the BRB is actually a highly sophisticated Nerd Rage-generator.