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Last time my friends and I were playing a game of 40k, an interesting scenario occured and I was wondering what the outcome should have been.

My friend moved 36" in his Wave Serpent with Star Engines.
Then my other friend assaulted the Wave Serpent with his Nob squad, immobilizing it. Since it moved so far, it obviously was wrecked.
Inside the Wave Serpent however, were Dire Avengers.
My friend who was playing the Eldar said that they should be able to disembark, or at least emergency disembark. Since the access point was not blocked by the Nob Squad or anthing else.
My Ork friend and I argued that they should have been destroyed.

We were just curious as to what actually should have happened.

Emergency Dis-embarkation. Units are only destroyed if they are unable to be placed on the table.

Agreed. See page 71 BRB, a skimmer that moves flat out and is immobilized the next turn is destroyed wrecked, and page 67 under effects of damage results on passengers for a transport that is destroyed-wrecked the passengers must immediately disembark and take a pinning test.

If the normal access points are blocked, they could make and emergency disembarkation also as per page 67. If this is impossible, then they would be destroyed.

I was the Eldar player in that game. The argument was that since the vehicle moved flat out that the passengers could not disembark and if the unit cannot disembark, then it is destroyed. So to satisfy the Ork player, I just said they emergency disembarked (even though the access point wasn't blocked).

They aren't destroyed because they aren't attempting to embark or disembark in the movement phase in which the vehicle has moved flat out. A situation in which the unit would be destroyed is if they attempted a 12-24" ram and the vehicle was then wrecked (because it occurs in the movement phase).

Your Dire Avengers should disembark normally.

As slightly grey area would be if the vehicle becomes wrecked in your shooting/assault phase (ie a game turn where "that movement phase" could refer only to the time of that turn in which the vehicle moved). But how often does that happen? A situation like yours is in an entirely different turn.

Ridcully wrote:They aren't destroyed because they aren't attempting to embark or disembark in the movement phase in which the vehicle has moved flat out. A situation in which the unit would be destroyed is if they attempted a 12-24" ram and the vehicle was then wrecked (because it occurs in the movement phase).

Your Dire Avengers should disembark normally.

As slightly grey area would be if the vehicle becomes wrecked in your shooting/assault phase (ie a game turn where "that movement phase" could refer only to the time of that turn in which the vehicle moved). But how often does that happen? A situation like yours is in an entirely different turn.

He's got it right.

I'd also like to point out that "emergency disembarking" on your opponent's turn has absolutely no ill effects upon the passengers of the vehicle. When your turn rolls around they are free to move and act as normal, they are not "pinned." I'm just stating this because it is a common misconception.

This has been a heated debate in the past and will most likely happen again.

PG 67BRB - "If any models can not disembark because of enemies or because of enemies or because they would end up in impassible terrain..." please tell me where in that sentence it says "because a model suffers a wrecked while flat out". It give two specific examples, and to twist "enemies" into "enemies shooting and causing a wrecked result while flat out" is a big stretch of RAI.

Debatable till blue in the face, IMO can't emergency disembark from a wrecked flat out.

PG 70BRB - "Passengers may not embark into or disembark from a fast vehicle is it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase" Once again RAI can be debated till blue in the face. The phrase "that movement phase" leans toward you can't embark/disembark for that movement phase only, becaus it makes no mention of "until next movement phase".

Debatable till blue in the face, IMO if you getting a cover save during your opponents turn for moving at crazy speeds, then "can't disembark" should apply too. Explosion result... that is a whole 'nother ballpark.

Yea, it seems to me that the biggest issue was that you can't disembark if the vehicle moved fast. But they needed to disembark since the vehicle was destroyed. It said if they couldn't disembark, they were destroyed, so that's why the Eldar Player (SuperShoe) used Emergency Disembark.

But, as was mentioned earlier in the thread, the rules for flat out vehicles are pretty specific about when the unit cannot disembark: during "that movement phase."

If the wreck occured in the same movement phase the fast vehicle moved flat out, the embarked models would be destroyed.

I did not read that as being the case.

Correct, most people that I have talk to interpret it as if you went flat-out you get a cover save, but if wrecked at any point till your next movement phase then the passengers are destroyed.

I would REALLY like it if they added the situation to the INAT, so that there would be any more issues with it within my local grp.

By Russ not this again. This is almost as bad as WBB!

Gwar! wrote:By Russ not this again. This is almost as bad as WBB!

Yup, wish INAT discussed it.

BlueDagger wrote:Correct, most people that I have talk to interpret it as if you went flat-out you get a cover save, but if wrecked at any point till your next movement phase then the passengers are destroyed.

Well, then, most people you talk to interpret it wrongly.

The only time that moving flat out prevents a disembarkation is during the SAME MOVEMENT PHASE as the flat-out move. Exactly as it says in the rulebook and exactly as others have already posted, even including the rulebook page and text (by you, even!). At any other time, ie outside of that movement phase, moving flat out has zero effect on a unit's ability to disembark. So emergency dismbarkation doesn't matter unless the acces point is blocked................ Maybe that's why it's not in the INAT, because it's clear in the rules. I have no idea how you think the phrase "that movement phase" is debateable or RAI to mean until next movement phase.

Because 'that movement phase' can be referring solely to describing when the vehicle has moved, as opposed to how long a disembarking effect lasts. This would mean the lack of disembarking could potentially last throughout your shooting an assault phase because your vehicle moved flat out in "that movement phase". But once the next movement phase rolls around, "that movement phase" can only refer to the current one (aka the enemy's movement phase when your vehicle quite obviously hasn't moved flat out in), so the lack of disembarking no longer applies.

So there would be two ways to look at it. Either no disembarking in just the movement phase, or no disembarking in your entire player turn which started with 'that movement phase'.

Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

Sorry, I don't see how it refers to (or could be interpreted to refer to) anything other than the movement phase in which the transport moves flat out.

don_mondo wrote:Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

Sorry, I don't see how it refers to (or could be interpreted to refer to) anything other than the movement phase in which the transport moves flat out.

The readings are
may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle... if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.
may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out... in that Movement phase.
One of them looks much more correct to me, personally.

don_mondo wrote:Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

Sorry, I don't see how it refers to (or could be interpreted to refer to) anything other than the movement phase in which the transport moves flat out.

Passengers may not disembark 'if the vehicle moved flat out in that movement phase'.
(this would identify only what and when the vehicle has done something, allowing no disembarking until you can no longer refer to the phase as 'that' movement phase. Ie. the enemy movement phase)

'Passengers may not disembark if the vehicle moved flat out' in that movement phase.
(this would identify all the events described, including the vehicle moving flat out and the passengers not allowed to disembark, occuring in that movement phase)

Those aren't exact quotes, but i'm just pointing out how to look at the paragraph in two ways.

I would say "that movement phase" ends when you start with your shooting phase (a new phase ending the previous). I really can't see any other way to interpret this.

Exactly what I'm saying...............

What is the to-hit roll for a vehicle that moves flat out cause 12" is 6+ right? So can you even assault a vehicle that moves flat out?

nethaniellovesthorpe wrote:What is the to-hit roll for a vehicle that moves flat out cause 12" is 6+ right? So can you even assault a vehicle that moves flat out?

A vehicle moving flat out is treated as a vehicle moving at cruising speed.

Oh ok thats a little strange but eh whatever works I guess it makes sence because anything is possible. (but not probable.)

BlueDagger wrote:This has been a heated debate in the past and will most likely happen again.

PG 67BRB - "If any models can not disembark because of enemies or because of enemies or because they would end up in impassible terrain..." please tell me where in that sentence it says "because a model suffers a wrecked while flat out". It give two specific examples, and to twist "enemies" into "enemies shooting and causing a wrecked result while flat out" is a big stretch of RAI.

Debatable till blue in the face, IMO can't emergency disembark from a wrecked flat out.

PG 70BRB - "Passengers may not embark into or disembark from a fast vehicle is it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase" Once again RAI can be debated till blue in the face. The phrase "that movement phase" leans toward you can't embark/disembark for that movement phase only, becaus it makes no mention of "until next movement phase".

Debatable till blue in the face, IMO if you getting a cover save during your opponents turn for moving at crazy speeds, then "can't disembark" should apply too. Explosion result... that is a whole 'nother ballpark.

I thought that was the only way troops could die inside a transport, If a fast transport goes flat out and dies then those indide are dead.

The biggest problem is that GW put that little line in there about if the models cannont get out there are destoryed, but then later they got a lot of complaints, even though it makes sense, and added emergancy disembarking.

I hate this section of the rules, its contradiction on contradition, and I feel the rules need to be changed to be clearer and say what they mean.

uggg.... maybe we should all just go play hello kitty's grimdark island adventure. it's simpler.

Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

IMO, the "movement phase" refers to the transport having moved, rather than the entire thing occurring in the movement phase. If it were omitted, it would confirm this.

Another way to phrase it would be, "If a fast vehicle has moved flat out in its movement phase, passengers may not embark onto or disembark from the vehicle".


From a logical standpoint, the idea behind the "immobilized = destroyed" result for moving flat out basically means that the momentum and subsequent loss of control send the poor thing nosediving, cartwheeling across the ground, catching fire and exploding, throwing the unfortunate passengers burning from the wreck.

I thought that was the only way troops could die inside a transport, If a fast transport goes flat out and dies then those indide are dead.

Orks with fast ramshakle vehicals seems to be the exception to the rule again too (if someone could clarify) as it says "and apply the result instead of the usual effects".

There's no way to destroy an Ork fast vehicle moving flat out on the owner's movement phase.

ChrisCP wrote:

I thought that was the only way troops could die inside a transport, If a fast transport goes flat out and dies then those indide are dead.

Orks with fast ramshakle vehicals seems to be the exception to the rule again too (if someone could clarify) as it says "and apply the result instead of the usual effects".

I must be missing something, even if the Ork table is used, the models cannot disembark if it moves flat out, no?
Even with "Kerrunch!" instead of normal, any models inside are still going to have an issue being there is a restriction on disembarking at all.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:There's no way to destroy an Ork fast vehicle moving flat out on the owner's movement phase.

And this confuses me - why is this the case?

There is no way to have a vehicle destroyed in your own movement phase as an Ork.