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Howard A Treesong wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
The JD board game was a great game, but there are other Judge Dredd and Doctor Who games and figures.

It wouldn't be hard to make your own set of JD if you wanted. The artwork is the big problem. The rules are very simple.

JD has is special to me because it was the first GW game I ever played, probably aged about 6. The first game in their Warhammer canon was Space Hulk which we had a couple of years later.

I too played many happy sessions of JG and SH. I had to let my JD go a couple of years ago because I knew I would never use it again and it seemed a waste to deny its pleasures to another gamer.

That's part of GW's problem. They don't realise that they are trampling all over a lot of fans' youthful memories and dreams.

If GW does try to screw with Dakka, I may just have to loose my inner Berzerker. In the meantime, It's off to AT-43 I go. Take that, Ivory Tower!

Slapping fans has become a fine art this year. As you may know, GW US was very short-handed this year after slashing many staff positions at HQ and in retails shops, so they asked many of their most devoted customers who frequent the HQ store to build and paint models in support of Games Day 2009 earlier this year with the promise of getting to keep the models we built and painted after the Games Day season was over. I even provided free publicity for the Games Day "Big Game" with those models on BoLS where thousands of people would see it ahead of the event. If I told you how those of us who asked about those models after Games Day season was over were treated you wouldn't even believe me and no, we still don't have the models that were promised to us or anything in the way of an apology or other compensation. :( A couple of us have spoken to one decent fellow we know at HQ who's trying to resolve the problem for us, but it should never have come to this situation in the first place, that's no way to treat some of your best customers, especially those that helped you out in a pinch. If they expect anyone to help them in the future with a project like that they need to not mistreat and disrespect the people who already helped them earlier this year.

I wish this was suprising.

carmachu wrote:Someone commented on our club board that he hears they just renewed their copyrights, and a friend speculated this all may have something to do with that.

Read this.

And then also consider the fact that most of the Blood Bowl sites they went after would have been diverting traffic from the upcoming Blood Bowl game release--which Games Workshop is bound by their licensing to support and ensure it makes cash.

Put simply:
If the game didn't make any money, not only do they lose the cost from licensing...they can also be open to a suit from the company they licensed to.
Or at least that's my understanding.

Can anyone with any actual legal knowledge explain how it is that a tattoo of a GW trademark or piece of IP (they can't have trademarked all of their iconography) is something to get sued over? What would the grounds possibly be?

Perhaps they should go after the tattoo artist, who actually received money for it... but I'm guessing this whole thing is a practice jog for GW's junior lawyers... real-life experience in being unreasonable and getting away with it.

They've never really gone after tattoos, as far as I'm aware. It's just something they put up there as a legal warning most likely.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Can anyone with any actual legal knowledge explain how it is that a tattoo of a GW trademark or piece of IP (they can't have trademarked all of their iconography) is something to get sued over? What would the grounds possibly be?

Perhaps they should go after the tattoo artist, who actually received money for it... but I'm guessing this whole thing is a practice jog for GW's junior lawyers... real-life experience in being unreasonable and getting away with it.

Careful, careful. Let's not debase the legitimacy of other claims, here. Read again what was said about tattoos.

Im just confused. I few of the slaps I moderately understand, but the majority of this is pointless. Fans have put a lot of time and effort into some of this stuff and GW just ripped it apart.
What the feth was the point?

Kanluwen wrote:They've never really gone after tattoos, as far as I'm aware. It's just something they put up there as a legal warning most likely.

I have heard (rumor so take it with a grain of salt,) that someone was threatened with legal action, and turned away at a Gw event for having some sort of IP symbol belonging to GW cut into the hair. GD Uk i think. (again just a rumor i cant say if its true.)

I've already started moving over to Warmachine, despite the fact I love the IP and love the minis. I still have enough to paint for a long, long time anwyay.

Well being honest, I very much doubt I will boycott Games Workshop. If pp made several stores near my house, produced more diverse models, and much, much, much, much more fluff then I wouldn't hesistate to cllect it.

I can't drop 40k and WHFB altogether. I love the games themselves too much. I will continue to buy their models and play their games, in support of my FLGS (which is an independant stockist, not a GW store) and Maelstrom Games.

However, I won't be buying much for a while, as I still have three boxes worth of Black Reach Orks to assemble and paint. I might get more into D&D and MTG now though.

Now, we don't need to "boycott" GW by not buying their products. Unless ALL of Dakka boycotts it, there won't be much impact.

Cryonicleech wrote:Now, we don't need to "boycott" GW by not buying their products. Unless ALL of Dakka boycotts it, there won't be much impact.

Right. No half measures, people. Get to it.

I beg to differ.

Not only is GW scared, they are scared to the point of paranoia and the beancounters are worried because "Buisness as usual" has pretty much turned into trying to figure out where they can keep a steady cash flow in by being penny wise and pound foolish.

As I took my step back from GW around a few months back, I took a drive over to my old local gaming store, that is almost as of now a PP store. GW, who once was almost half of a store full of product stacked damn near to the cealing, and had almost three rows of product in blister on the wall is now reduced to a 8X8 square. maybe 10X10, but on to that, Reaper, PP, Starwars, FOW, dungeons and dragons, and an assortment of Munchkins and board games have pounced into the nich.

GW is established into its own store, but what is to be said when that same store has a half of a wall of product that is out of circulation and is as of now irrelevent.

Blood bowel, which by the way GW is sticking a knife into is now being CRUSHED by this new game by PP named, Grind. !@#$ Blood Bowel. You guys really need to at least try Grind out. Its the dogs! My shop has a BB game on the wall with a 75 buck pricetag on it, (What does that tell you?)

Remember Necromunda, when we used to have a fairly good player lead initiative to continue the game? They stick a knife in that one as well. Now I can go get me an army of any thing out there with enough guys, where a box of about 30 bucks gives me enough to start, Without having to worry about the silly 50.00 terminators.

50 bucks for 5 guys, or 50 bucks for 30, you be the judge of whats the better deal.

Not to mention the up and comers that are stepping up into GW's nich hole that they have pretty much given themselves, I can see the buisness Metagame on this as likening it to someone using the buisness as thier own private income, instead of worrying about the shareholder.

You remember those fat initiative that they had a few months back? Guess whos paying for them, now. They played the tune a couple of months back, now the player, who is now getting wise to the chicanery, is now finding other alternatives.

GW is too fat. they can either do one of two things, either get back into the game industry, or they can continue to play with the old game of closeing stores to pay thier bills, while LGS's start rebelling and going to more user friendly companies such as FOW, PP, or Reaper, who not only give the shops thier space to work, they don't continue the gestapo tactics of coming in and trying to take over local markets with thier overly excessive GW shops.

Personally, I think we as gamers can stand to take a look at the big picture, now and then. Remember the great D and D situation? This is the same one, except with the millions of pounds at stake, this is a publicly traded company, and shareholders, if they are not careful, are going to be the proud owners of a turd by way of GW's stock taking the preverbial piss, and someone in that company jumping ship with the cash with a two finger salute.

I don't recommend a boycott. Quite the contrary, if I were a shareholder, I would be jumping on thier desks, and seeing someone about an audit.

Over the past couple of years, GW has been losing ground, while all the while throwing good money after bad on lack luster side projects, excessive corperate spending, and some very questionable upper management actions that , until now have gone under the table to the common gamer.

NOW, with the ongoing cease and desist phase, I speculate that there is something going on behind the scenes, and that there is going to be a reaction very soon.

For every action, there is an equal reaction.

Wait and see what transpires.

I for one would support a more competent gaming company (such as Fantasy Flight Games) buying out GW. It'll never happen, but you can dream...

Cheese Elemental wrote:I for one would support a more competent gaming company (such as Fantasy Flight Games) buying out GW. It'll never happen, but you can dream...

This is a very good possibility, seeing as not too long ago FF was a mere side show, and now have become a serious force to be reconed with in the gaming industry.
FF actually sells games, too. Not just makes money off of chasing fish for pennies on the doller.( cease and desist orders)

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Can anyone with any actual legal knowledge explain how it is that a tattoo of a GW trademark or piece of IP (they can't have trademarked all of their iconography) is something to get sued over? What would the grounds possibly be?

Perhaps they should go after the tattoo artist, who actually received money for it... but I'm guessing this whole thing is a practice jog for GW's junior lawyers... real-life experience in being unreasonable and getting away with it.

I'm not a lawyer but from my understanding, the issue over tattoos is with the artist, not with the tattooee. The artist, in taking money to reproduce GW IP, is the one committing the infringement.

But as was pointed out already, they're unlikely to ever actually do anything about it. I suspect the legal notice is just a part of their general 'cover our butts for everything possible' approach.

Hawkins wrote:I have heard (rumor so take it with a grain of salt,) that someone was threatened with legal action, and turned away at a Gw event for having some sort of IP symbol belonging to GW cut into the hair. GD Uk i think. (again just a rumor i cant say if its true.)

If it is true, I would suspect it's down to an over-zealous staff member rather than anything to do with GW legal, or official company policy.

I've been lurking here and on B&C for years, but I have started painting again so maybe ill chip something in here...

GW- if any of you read this... It is the fan sites, like TearDown for example, that prompted me to come out of hobby hibernation and pick up Space Hulk when it finally came out. *** see note at bottom!!!***

I am a painter and modeller and not a gamer I admit, I had actually bought the original SH back in the early 90's, but never actually played it. But when this version came out, it was only because I played and enjoyed the Teardown version of the game that I picked up your actual product (having heard the buzz about it on a site just like this one). Without the fun of that little app, frankly, I probably wouldn't have given a toss about the SH09 release beyond idle curiosity. If you were truly business savvy, you would have not only hired the boys at Teardown, but had them produce an Iphone app as well! Imagine the business that could have been generated had that app been on the top 10 of itunes... literally millions of customers completely unreachable through your normal marketing strategies would have been exposed to an entry level IP. Instead, you gave them a nice 'F-U' and shut them down. Good job.

Most fan sites, even if they step on your toes a touch,are still promoting your ip's and potentially reaching out to audiences you havent quite touched yet. Or, keeping the flame alive for fans of OOP games (which in turn keeps them interested in a hobby that can very quickly turn invisible without active effort to go to the store, or look online. It's not hard to avoid GW in day to day life lol). A fan site, like Dakka, has new content, discussions and ideas to absorb everyday, something your corporate sites don't offer. And weather it's positive or negative, it is participation in your world of products. Any press is good press right?

TBH I have enjoyed the whole process of looking for more missions and rules for SH... and I haven't even played a game yet (neurotic about wanting to paint all the minis first, but unfortunately/fortunately I am a pretty advanced painter lol). It is the excitement of fellow enthusiasts putting out this new content that keeps me motivated getting through the 100's of hours of painting I have left. You released this game and then stopped supporting it immediately with only 12 missions... That's not a whole ton of content to chew on for years on end. Without the talk and excitement of my fellow fans, I may have gotten bored and quite after 4 or 5 8 hour stealers.

I agree with the united consensus of this board that not only are you insulting, and potentially alienating your most devoted fans, but you are in fact acting in a fashion that is directly detrimental to gaining new fans as well.

I highly suggest you reconsider your new approach to both legal dealings with fansites as well as your current rumor policy. No one wants you guys to be robbed or be the victims of people selling what doesnt belong to them... But killing the creativity and imagination, not to mention the enthusiasm, of your fanbase is counter to the very qualities you desire of the demographic you wish to sell to.

Hopefully there are still some people at your organization who are fans of your product, and not just looking to streamline profits using extremely dry corporate tactics. Wouldn't be surprised if half your financial decision makers couldnt even name a space marine chapter.


BIG SIDE NOTE: GW still has SH in stock for online ordering, you can no longer navigate to the order page within the current site architecture, but, IF you google space hulk, the true link to purchase shows up in the search... i found it, 2 weeks ago, took a shot and ordered it, not wanting to pay the slowed fees on ebay for a copy... and guess what, I got it, no questions asked, original price... OOP my a$$.

Apologist signing in!
So basically.. stop whining and.. well thats all i got.

and..

Getting a tatoo is probably not anything GW can "fix" via litigation. Posting shots of tatoos on your web site likely is.

insaniak wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Can anyone with any actual legal knowledge explain how it is that a tattoo of a GW trademark or piece of IP (they can't have trademarked all of their iconography) is something to get sued over? What would the grounds possibly be?

Perhaps they should go after the tattoo artist, who actually received money for it... but I'm guessing this whole thing is a practice jog for GW's junior lawyers... real-life experience in being unreasonable and getting away with it.

I'm not a lawyer but from my understanding, the issue over tattoos is with the artist, not with the tattooee. The artist, in taking money to reproduce GW IP, is the one committing the infringement.

But as was pointed out already, they're unlikely to ever actually do anything about it. I suspect the legal notice is just a part of their general 'cover our butts for everything possible' approach.

Hawkins wrote:I have heard (rumor so take it with a grain of salt,) that someone was threatened with legal action, and turned away at a Gw event for having some sort of IP symbol belonging to GW cut into the hair. GD Uk i think. (again just a rumor i cant say if its true.)

If it is true, I would suspect it's down to an over-zealous staff member rather than anything to do with GW legal, or official company policy.

I wonder how that guy that had the Chaos warror painting tattoo all over his back feels right now...

http://www.weirdthings.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/stunning-but-weird-back-tattoo.jpg

Ok, so, we all know GW as a rule ignores email complaints, mail order trolls don't/cant listen to them and normally the only way they remotely pay exact attention is via the old fashioned pen and paper. - Robin Cruddace specifically mentioned at Games Day that he's read the assorted tyranid letters (specifically mentioning spore mine and lictor issues) and have taken them into account. So someone reads them somewhere.

In any case because of this and the other assorted recently-annoying-things it's gotten to the point to me, that I'm starting to consider writing one.

The question is, who to? part of my annoyance was about white dwarf, however this months editorial has pretty much shot that idea out of the water - Mark Latham addresses a vast amount of my issues with the magazine there! Then of course, being in a good mood about GW cause of this months mag, I start looking into this thread, and that good will goes poof.

I'm rambling. Anyway, think Jervis Johnston, Games Workshop Willow Road etc etc would be the most logical choice, factoring in all things (likelihood of immediate binning, secretary handing off etc).

Anyone else got thoughts?

Incidently, I did find a load of second class stamps that I'd forgotten about....

@ MajotTom11, thats a great first post. Welcome to Dakka. We could use more quality signal versus the noise ratio around here.

Many of the GW files purged from BGG I have already 'archived', so the loss is not great from my POV. People will just have to do what they did pre-web if they want copies. Contact other people.

I spent my birthday money on Old Crow models (awesome casts and quality, btw), my christmas money will be spent on Infinity.

I don't actually need any more GW stuff.

Hellfury wrote:@ MajotTom11, thats a great first post. Welcome to Dakka. We could use more quality signal versus the noise ratio around here.

And we could also use a lot less of these styled threads.

Spending a little more time reading out the link in the OP:

Several of the things he complains about being forced to remove are things that GW actually did under license(Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper off the top of my head, along with the War of the Rings related rules "erratas", etc that he wrote), things that GW own(Mordheim, Advanced Space Crusade, Doom of the Eldar, etc), or just the fact that the IP protection could be running out, like we've discussed in the dozen other threads on this same friggin' topic for almost a month now.

Cryonicleech wrote:Alrighty then.

It's time we took a stand Dakka. If we let this continue, GW may decide that Dakka Dakka itself is infringement, and Lord knows that none of us want this great site to close down.

I'm writing a letter to Jervis Johnson right now, and I suggest you do so as well. I don't care how long he's been with GW, what they're doing right now is insanity. Soon, maybe CMON might not be allowed to have GW models on the site, the words Warhammer won't be allowed on the site, etc.

We as hobbists cannot simply watch as GW tries to control any and everything they can. They need to know that veterans and new players alike are mad as hell.

i will definatly wirte a letter, i just need JJ 's info.

if dakka gets hit we pool our resources and give them the proverbial.

I'm not a GW apologist, but I don't understand the outrage over this. Do you really think GW gives a fig about how much time and money you've spent as an individual on their product. Great that you love whatever fringe game or specialist game or faction or whatever that they no longer support that breaks your heart, but what makes you think that they realistically can or should care about that? Despite the human psychological need to believe that everyone or most everyone agrees with us it's simply not the case.
Most people don't care, the ugly truth is the angry voices on internet forums like this one are the minority. It isn't that the majority silently supports stuff like this, it's just that they don't care and won't care no matter how much you want them to. I think most of them just want to play the game and will continue to do so regardless of what GW does.

Maybe it's just that I made my peace with GW acting like a business a long time ago. I deal with price increases by only spending money on things I really want. Yeah, their recent efforts at IP protection are short-sighted, but even though I spend alot of time gaming it just isn't that important to me personally. If I want to be outraged and rail againt corporate thinking I can find many more worthy examples than heavy-handed IP protection and Cease and Desist letters. I spent a long time lurking on this board because I didn't like getting drawn into discussions like this, but at some point should someone ask everyone to take a deep breath and react to this as they feel is best and not start treating it like it must be the first act in some player-led revolution to reclaim the games we love. Buy GW's product or not, but don't pretend like giving your money to Privateer or Battlefront or Infinity is taking some kind of moral stand. Wait a few years and see what those companies look like, especially Privateer and Battlefront even though I love their games. Don't be surprised if it isn't that different from GW.

It's time we took a stand Dakka. If we let this continue, GW may decide that Dakka Dakka itself is infringement, and Lord knows that none of us want this great site to close down.

I'm writing a letter to Jervis Johnson right now, and I suggest you do so as well. I don't care how long he's been with GW, what they're doing right now is insanity. Soon, maybe CMON might not be allowed to have GW models on the site, the words Warhammer won't be allowed on the site, etc.

We as hobbists cannot simply watch as GW tries to control any and everything they can. They need to know that veterans and new players alike are mad as hell.

I will definatly wirte a letter, i just need JJ 's info.

if dakka gets hit we pool our resources and give them the proverbial.

This is bigger fantasy than Warhammer. First, it's definitely, the root word is finite. Why do half the people on game forums now think that the word definitely has an "a" in it? Second, JJ likely has little to nothing to do with IP and copyright protection, corporations have lawyers and managers just for that. JJ is in games development. Third, GW has more lawyers and deeper pockets than the people you'll get to pool resources on a forum.

There is some genuine cause for alarm and concern on the part of fans due to GW's behavior of late, but if we're going to have discussions like this about it can we at least stay in the realm of the plausible or realistic or rational.