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Apologist mode back on for some?

Honestly Kanluwen I thought you understood the issue wasn't with GW protecting their IP, but the way its been handled in general. Calling a stop to reasonable discussion on the issue that is interesting to hear and adding to the whole issue discussion doesn't sound constructive.

Cheers for your perspective Brassscorpion. Its tragic to hear that people have been burned, but hopefully its the kind of thing that comes back to bite them in their IP correct tattoed A$$.

Quite funnily the issue of the tattooes came up at the start of the BB cease and desist fiasco with a prominent Bloodbowl figure: DoubleSkulls having the skull/skull dice tattoo'ed on his rectum. His response was quite eloquent...

Grimhowl wrote:I'm not a GW apologist, but I don't understand the outrage over this. Do you really think GW gives a fig about how much time and money you've spent as an individual on their product. Great that you love whatever fringe game or specialist game or faction or whatever that they no longer support that breaks your heart, but what makes you think that they realistically can or should care about that? Despite the human psychological need to believe that everyone or most everyone agrees with us it's simply not the case.
Most people don't care, the ugly truth is the angry voices on internet forums like this one are the minority. It isn't that the majority silently supports stuff like this, it's just that they don't care and won't care no matter how much you want them to. I think most of them just want to play the game and will continue to do so regardless of what GW does.

Maybe it's just that I made my peace with GW acting like a business a long time ago. I deal with price increases by only spending money on things I really want. Yeah, their recent efforts at IP protection are short-sighted, but even though I spend alot of time gaming it just isn't that important to me personally. If I want to be outraged and rail againt corporate thinking I can find many more worthy examples than heavy-handed IP protection and Cease and Desist letters. I spent a long time lurking on this board because I didn't like getting drawn into discussions like this, but at some point should someone ask everyone to take a deep breath and react to this as they feel is best and not start treating it like it must be the first act in some player-led revolution to reclaim the games we love. Buy GW's product or not, but don't pretend like giving your money to Privateer or Battlefront or Infinity is taking some kind of moral stand. Wait a few years and see what those companies look like, especially Privateer and Battlefront even though I love their games. Don't be surprised if it isn't that different from GW.

This is good.

However, the majority DOES NOT support anymore. As for gamers, Gamers are doing what Gamers do. If the game gets too expensive, they jump the boat, if they even stay that long. Remember who the primary market for GW is? More or less from 8 to 18, and if there are those that are older, then they are just an added bonus. We old farts are not the primary market. We are secondary. They already HAVE our money. They have a thought process that we will do what we are told, in much the same way as they teach in thier sales seminars.. (oop! we better not talk about that, yet! )

As for the "Not Care", I see that target audience group as apathetic until the crunch starts to directly and relevently effect thier personal games, and at that age, who really pays attention to a minor inconvenience, even in this day and age. An example will be the rise in price, because the market is being drawn to other avenues of gaming.

Most of us here are experienced gamers. We've seen things like this before, but not from GW going to the extent that they are effecting general gaming discussions on the internet. In a nutshell, they are trying to heard cats. I go so far as to even say that they are going to do this to the wrong one, pretty soon and we will soon be seeing this ending up in the buisness news. CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF, I put it out there that 95% of GW's lawyer antics work out of intimidation. I throw it out there that GW can't afford a drawn out legal battle in that it will ultimatly play itself out in the public opinion, and very quickly end up turning on them and affecting thier bottom line.

Who is going to support a company that turns on you for discussing thier product on the internet? And what about when you get on your discussion borads and discuss the way you were treated at that point, ( such is the case of what is transpiring here and at other sites.)

There is a point in which the "Party Line" is not part of the party anymore.

Even now with the voices of dissent out there already PO'd off about this situation, how many people do you think are going to stop playing GW games, even by the tone of this conversation, I can assure you that there will be a significant drop in sales. Even if they sell more video games, that small opinion of being betrayed is going to quickly find itself voiced, and revoiced. People are going to continue to play the game, sure, and they will continue to hook more preteens to fill the thinning ranks, but there is a breaking point. And yes, it is betrayal. These rabid fans don't care about internal stuff of buisness, IP discussions, or anything other then the quick fast and a hurry simple, "I played this game for this many years, and THIS is how this company pays me back for my loyalty.."

Yes it is a business. Yes they are trying to shore up thier property being distributed over the internet free of charge. Yes the so called IP is out of production, but that doesn't amount to a hill of beans when your already distributed property is running the risk of gutting your bottom line when you lose that IP because you didn't do anything about it.

Look at the company and find out what thier 5 year plan is. Ask yourself, with the advent of the video game, computer, and continuing market development, do you think this company can stay relevent when thier money making games are out there, free of charge, and they are going to lose thier right to call this GW's IP?
I say, no. They won't survive very long in the marketplace, and not the way the economy is right now.

You all can Protest, write letters, tell them they are bad, and all that, but the bottom line is that This is a buisness, and they have entirely too many cost to profit margins that they are trying to cover, and losing themselves more then just real money in thier current actions.

You won't have to worry about protests when they start getting rid of REAL assets, like FW, or Black Library when they start jumping ship and fending for themselves.

Grot 6 wrote:
Even now with the voices of dissent out there already PO'd off about this situation, how many people do you think are going to stop playing GW games, even by the tone of this conversation, I can assure you that there will be a significant drop in sales.

I dont think many will stop playing GW games. But if their anything like me, they'll stop(or like me have stopped for almost 2 years) buying. I can easily play 40k for years to come with what I have already. I need to sell a few things off in fact.

*shrug*

GW itself is irrelevant to my fun. And irrelvant to my purchases, as they are going to other places now. And have been for a year and a half.

This is an example of everyone on this forum:

"Man GW just blows. They flaunt their giant corporate dicks just cuz they are the only wargaming company that has a huge international fanbase."

'The next day, at the hobby store':

"Hi, I'm here to buy some GW products."


rofl

Could always just make a dummy company and have that company be the one registering domains and creating websites

Its why business owners set up LLCs so that their personal assets cant be taken in any kind of suit.

Set up a small LLC.. And then dont give a damn about lawsuits.. The business has no assets

Just dismantle the business and restart another one..

I dont understand why people are trying to fight fair against GW when they have more resources.. Guerilla warfare is the only way to beat them.. Give them so many targets and so many assetless companies to go after they have no choice but to give up

Grot 6 wrote:Look at the company and find out what thier 5 year plan is. Ask yourself, with the advent of the video game, computer, and continuing market development, do you think this company can stay relevent when thier money making games are out there, free of charge, and they are going to lose thier right to call this GW's IP?
I say, no. They won't survive very long in the marketplace, and not the way the economy is right now.

I would love to see some of these organizations stand up to GW, if for no other reason than it would cost them between $1-10million and years to prosecute. If what some people are saying is true (and I highly doubt that GW owns outright rights to Judge Dredd for one), then they would be able to fight it and even win; winning would possibly mean that GW would have to pay the winner's legal costs on top of their own. 10 of such lost lawsuits would mean they could kiss their bottom line gone. They don't have the capital to fight endless lawsuits (IRAA they are not).
Here's a link that'll give you an idea; it's for patent suits but similar costs would come of an IP case. http://www.inventionstatistics.com/Patent_Litigation_Costs.html

We all know that bullying works in the short term but it will eventually come back around and cost more in the long run. Seriously, after all the publicity, legal battles, and many victories; the music industry is not any richer for it and the downloading of music is even more prevalent than it was before it all started.

Some guy with middling greenstuff skills and a garage set-up could alter some GW figs just enough to cause reasonable doubt that it ever was a GW fig and he could sell thousands of homebrew figs with a different label. I fail to see how that's any different than their ex-employees going to other companies and sculpting the same type of figs. We all know people are going to buy these cheaper, better looking figs and add them to their 40k or fantasy army but GW can't prove any misfeasance so they just chew their cud and take it like the cows they are.

Anywho, we can all sit here and postulate but nothing's going to change until something tips everything over an edge (or not).

I think that everything points that GW will soon change its name to Toys Workshop. The Board its trying (IMHO) to change GW´s business model in something akin to the big toy companies that get something flashy from a movie, videogame... and market it to the teenager segment and then move on to the next big splash release leaving almost without support the older releases.

At least this is how it looks to me. GW´s releases a codex with a number of miniatures while ignoring all the other armies and after the first rush to get all the new shinny things they simply forget about any follow ups and start working in the next codex.

M.

I'd rather that GW just became a miniatures company and someone else (FFG) did their rules.

Miguelsan wrote:I think that everything points that GW will soon change its name to Toys Workshop. The Board its trying (IMHO) to change GW´s business model in something akin to the big toy companies that get something flashy from a movie, videogame... and market it to the teenager segment and then move on to the next big splash release leaving almost without support the older releases.

At least this is how it looks to me. GW´s releases a codex with a number of miniatures while ignoring all the other armies and after the first rush to get all the new shinny things they simply forget about any follow ups and start working in the next codex.

M.

While I agree with you over what appears to be their demographic/marketing angle, I do think there is still a strong modeling side to the company. They are very quick to point out it's 'The Hobby' in financial reviews, interviews and literature. When they stop making hobby centric products, such as paint, terrain, etc and start making pre-paints..then I'll be with you. I think the fact GW has not produced pre-paints (as of yet) says quite a bit.

Miguelsan wrote:GW´s releases a codex with a number of miniatures while ignoring all the other armies and after the first rush to get all the new shinny things they simply forget about any follow ups and start working in the next codex.

The problem with your theory is that this is the way GW have been doing business for more than 15 years now...

In fact, they've gotten better in recent years at supporting armies between codex releases. Releasing miniatures in several waves rather than all at once on the codex release (although it's admittedly debatable as to whether that's a good thing, at least for units that don't have current models already), and adding in expansions like Apocalypse and Planetstrike, which lets them release new toys for old armies.

BeefyG wrote:Apologist mode back on for some?

Honestly Kanluwen I thought you understood the issue wasn't with GW protecting their IP, but the way its been handled in general. Calling a stop to reasonable discussion on the issue that is interesting to hear and adding to the whole issue discussion doesn't sound constructive.

Cheers for your perspective Brassscorpion. Its tragic to hear that people have been burned, but hopefully its the kind of thing that comes back to bite them in their IP correct tattoed A$$.

Quite funnily the issue of the tattooes came up at the start of the BB cease and desist fiasco with a prominent Bloodbowl figure: DoubleSkulls having the skull/skull dice tattoo'ed on his rectum. His response was quite eloquent...

I'm calling for less friggin' threads on the subject. There have been roughly 5-6 threads since Fumbbl went down, all claiming it's some great big conspiracy to screw you out of being able to play any of these games or the like. It's ridiculous.

Several people have also pointed out, EVERY TIME in EVERY THREAD that the timeframe on IP being protected until it becomes public domain is running out on a great many of GW's original bread and butter releases.

Several of these threads have also been in regards to idiotic ideals like "Well GW doesn't sell the product anymore, so it's perfectly okay for me to put it up on the internet as a PDF!"(look at the OP's link and there's one specific example that's a real hoot. It's a PDF scan of something GW really only published in White Dwarf. And he's surprised that they went after it?) or that just because you've edited some of the original stats, or taken the original stats and transposed them onto new statcards makes it okay to do exactly what you're told not to do(namely: don't publish statlines or full rules sets. Explaining a specific special rule ex: FRFSRF is okay...but not actually giving the rule away.)

Seriously there was this huge post by Fateweaver where he tested out his gag reflex with GW? Where did it go?

For right now they kiss your ass. The best way to make money is to make people happy. GW (and they aren't the only ones who do it) make enough money off new people buying products that they don't HAVE to care and listen to customers.

I'd bet my entire school loan that were PP and Corvus Belli were as big as GW they'd do whatever fits their agenda or whatever draws new people.

They aren't as big as GW so they need to PRETEND to care more.

It's like when Walmart came into my city. They made promises and for the longest time were the lowest priced retailer and grocer in town. After 3 years they saw that they had the customers they needed so now treat their customers and employees like gak and are, in some instances, a more expensive place to shop than even Target and Kmart. Yet, Walmart is the most profitable business in town generating $80M per year in a town of 14,000 people in sales.

So they don't care that they might lose 20 customers a year, they still make plenty enough money because they did what GW did 20 years ago and did what PP and CB are doing now. Mark my words. Give it 20 years (or lets be conservative for the haters and give it 15 years) before we see the same kind of ACL-tearing knee jerks over something as obvious as this.

Even Captain Obvious would be baffled to think anyone out to make money really cares about its customers.

This might be a good point to remind everyone of Dakka's rule number 1 (be polite!) and to ask that if you're tempted to post something a little heated that you take a step back and have a good hard think about it first.

Respond to the topic, don't attack the posters.

And if you're not interested in participating in the discussion, just don't open the thread.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Seriously there was this huge post by Fateweaver where tested out his gag reflex with GW? What did it go?

Was deleted because a mod felt it would lead to a flame war. Lord knows certain posters (.......) can flame all day long and not get banned.

I don't apologize if I insulted someone miserable enough to hate a company that is only doing what a company does.

I agree with Fateweaver in the sense that a company can be trusted to do what all companies try to do. Make money. If someone does not like a product, their only recourse is to not buy the product. I think companies in general only care about people in terms of how it affects the bottom line. If their products do not sell only then will they alter their products.

If I let myself get emotional regarding something a company does in which I have little control over, I am the one that is at fault until I exercise the only control I have and that is to not buy that companies products or services any longer.

If you really don't like GW, don't buy anything from GW and don't play their games because it seems that you may be happier in the long run. It really is that simple.



However, for me, as much as I may be frustrated with some of the things GW does and puts out, I continue to play the game and buy the models. End of story.

Kanluwen wrote:

Hellfury wrote:@ MajotTom11, thats a great first post. Welcome to Dakka. We could use more quality signal versus the noise ratio around here.

And we could also use a lot less of these styled threads.

Spending a little more time reading out the link in the OP:

Several of the things he complains about being forced to remove are things that GW actually did under license(Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper off the top of my head, along with the War of the Rings related rules "erratas", etc that he wrote), things that GW own(Mordheim, Advanced Space Crusade, Doom of the Eldar, etc), or just the fact that the IP protection could be running out, like we've discussed in the dozen other threads on this same friggin' topic for almost a month now.

To Kanluwen and those above saying 'a company will do what companies do, try to make money', please read on. I think in some small way everyone is saying the same thing, but focusing on either the goals of a company or the goals of fans. Both are in fact the same, GW wants to make money, and we as fans, want them to make great product so we can give them that money, right? Same page! The question is whether or not their current strategies are working towards our mutual ends.

Do I like GW's new attitude as a fan? No not really... But, I am a business owner,and in a marketting/design field, I have some small experience in PR and general corporate strategy. What I am actually saying is supportive of GW as a company, because I in fact believe they are currently harming their own interests with short-sighted strategy. Allow me to elaborate -

All GW products are inherently and inextricably community based (with the exception of novels, and to a lesser extent, video games). They MUST involve 2 or more individuals. After all, playing a game of 40k against yourself would be pretty lame and counter productive to having fun right? It is beyond simply the fact that the games require 2 players, these are fairly complex products and require time to learn and master as well. I am pretty sure that all of us have had a mentor, or mentored others on the rules, how to improve our play, our painting, our strategy and even how to save a buck or 2. This is not a solo hobby. I am also willing to bet at least 50% of their customers were brought into the hobby by word of mouth, and not just by passing the product in some random hobby shop or a white dwarf amongst a hundred other magazines.

If we agree that far, we therefore agree that interaction is a fundamental part of the experience. I just paint, but even I have taken advantage of forums like this one, coolmini,and b&c to expose myself to people who will improve my skills. And even though I don't play, I quite like hearing about the actual games as well. I can't really imagine remaining interested, or even being particularly good at painting the minis without having learnt so many techniques online. Techniques I know I never would have imagined on my own. I remember I even managed to share a few emails with Bobby Wong himself back in the day, shortly after he unveiled his Leonatos set. That was amazing. There arent many other hobbies/communities where you can so easily access one of the masters and have them be humble, kind and articulate people perfectly willing to spend their time to help you out. That is something pretty cool about this hobby, especially considering it does have a fairly competitive nature in some aspects. In my admitedly limited experience, wargamers and hobbyists are kind, enthusiastic people...

Exactly the kind of people who are perfect clients. I mean look at us! Some are inarticulately bitching sure, others are making logical statements from various angles. But the point is, we are talking about it, and i'm sure people involved enough in the hobby to come here and talk about it are vocal to some degree with their friends as well. We are selling GW product right now, right this second!

Using Teardown as the perfect example again, they took an at the time very OOP game and breathed some life into it. They did this WITHOUT CHARGING. I want to be perfectly clear that I do not agree in any way shape or form with other companies/individuals financially profiting from superficially redressing what is clearly GW IP and product. (Let's face it, if GW should go after anyone it's Blizzard lol, talk about ripping of designs! but I digress)Teardown made a pretty simple and low end tribute to space hulk. Did they copy it? Sure they did. Did they ask permission before hand? Apparantly not. Did they give credit for the IP and direct fans to GW? They sure did.

Meanwhile, GW is cranking out some pretty high quality games with THQ. THQ has the liscence to GW IPs in videogames right now, I understand that, and it is perfectly acceptable that they closed Teardown's SH game from a legal and logical point of view. They had every right, and what they did was not wrong in that it was their choice to make. BUT - I question the choice!

The teardown SH app was absolutely no threat to the boardgame nor any of THQ's franchises. In fact, as I stated in my original post, that little Teardown game actually prompted me to spend a couple of hundred bucks restocking my paints and equipment, and picking up the real SH! I also own all the DOW series, and frankly, playing that SH game made me dust off DOWII for the first time in months too. It HELPED GW. TD actually provided them a service. And guess what, I passed that little app on to my co-workers and they enjoyed playing it as well. Then when I told them I bought the real game, they got kinda excited and wanted to see it. Then when I brought in a painted genestealer, they freaked out and wanted to try themselves (since we are all artistically inclined)!

So, Teardown's SH has brought in 6 potential new hobbyists and 1 old one single handedly. And I'm just one user of that game. I wonder what will happen if my co-workers/friends actually do paint a model or 2... maybe they will want to pick up a GW game? A video game? Maybe they will want to read a book? Chances are pretty good, and definetly up from the big zero awareness they had about GW in the first place right? All thanks to a little fan made app, which quickly translated into cash-money for GW. NOT the guys who actually made it.

The potential is clear. That app could have been easily ported to iPhone too for neglible costs. There are no guarantees, but the iPhone market is in the millions, and frankly it is a fairly lengthy game for its memory footprint. Perfect in scope, legnth and style for that platform. Little risk with high potential for gain. An oppurtunity missed because, in my opinion, someone who doesnt really understand the machine of this community and how the product propegates in the wild is making the decisions. Shutting Teardown ... um... down - was the correct corporate decision... The thing is though that GW has a more symbiotic relationship with its clientel than most corporations its size. The good-will of its clients is instrumental in the well being of the company, and in the end, the cash it's shareholders get in their pocket at the end of the year. In this case, it's really about finding a win win!

I write quickly so forgive the length and rambling, but a few more points. GW should embrace the changes the internet has forced on their business model. Can you find pretty much every codex on torrents? You sure can! Can you use GS molding to clone parts? You sure can! Is their much chance that they will be able to curb this? Not a shot in hell. If Hollywood can't stop piracy, GW won't be able to either.

Solution? IMHO, release the codexes for free. Their profit on them is neglible next to the profit of selling models, paint etc. The codexes (codices?) being free would facilitate more excitement per launch, would definetly decrease the whining and problems that occur when certain gamers face armies they do not know the rules for, and finally, increase the likelyhood of a player potentially starting a new army. Every gamer reading every codex is not a bad thing, it increases immersion, and creates passive participation in another army. Not everyone will go out and start a new army every time a codex comes out, but some will, and I bet my left nut that there would be a marked increase in sales with free Codices. Despite the GS cloning issue, it's just not that easy or quick, and people will still buy models, they will still visit the store, they will still read these sites. Sidenote, releasing them in digital form would also leave them open to easy updates and fixing, without the need for re-prints... people would also know where to look for info, and making them sign up and register to download not only ensures that the client base would be notified of these updates/fixes, but would also leave that venue open for marketing pretty much everything else. Emails of known clients are worth a lot of money!

Second, re-introduce short stories and more fluff into both White Dwarf and Codices. Younger kids who do not fully understand the rules or other people who simply enjoy the tone and nature of the world more than the appeal of a tabletop game itself can still have their imaginations captured by a good story. I know that's why I liked it so much as a tot in the 80's and 90's. GW can be an experience, and back in the day, was incredibly imaginitive and unique. Stories sell Fantasy and Sci-fi Product. It's a fact. And guess what, non-gamers can still buy a crap load of non-game specific product/books, and little kids too young to master it can still nag the hell out of their parents to buy them minis, books and video games, that's a fact too.

So, as you can see, there are what you will hopefully find to be valid arguements as to why the somewhat excessive legal action on fan sites (that are simply fan sites, not selling) and the moritorium on rumors is despite initial appearances, potentially very harmful to GW's business interests. What they need is more word of mouth, not less. Their products do not lend themselves to solo discovery very well, and certainly the nerdy stigma attached to anything most of the world assumes is D&D is difficult to overcome without the reassurance of other people liking it too. Attempting to make themselves the sole purveyors of GW news and fluff is, odd as it sounds, hurting them, not helping. And the thing is, I like GW and I want them to do well. Saying they are making mistakes does not mean otherwise, and like a good friend would do, sometimes it's best to speak an unwelcome truth than to stand by while your 'friend' is damaging their livelihood.

PS Thanks for the welcome Hellfury, see what I mean about nice people in the community?

Kanluwen wrote:

Hellfury wrote:@ MajotTom11, thats a great first post. Welcome to Dakka. We could use more quality signal versus the noise ratio around here.

And we could also use a lot less of these styled threads.

Spending a little more time reading out the link in the OP:

Several of the things he complains about being forced to remove are things that GW actually did under license(Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper off the top of my head, along with the War of the Rings related rules "erratas", etc that he wrote), things that GW own(Mordheim, Advanced Space Crusade, Doom of the Eldar, etc), or just the fact that the IP protection could be running out, like we've discussed in the dozen other threads on this same friggin' topic for almost a month now.

Thanks for taking the time to contribute that.

Did I force you to open this thread? Did I force you to respond?

Its a discussion forum for people who discuss things, whether you feel it is trivial or not.

If you don't like it, do not participate. Quite simple.

Hellfury wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Hellfury wrote:@ MajotTom11, thats a great first post. Welcome to Dakka. We could use more quality signal versus the noise ratio around here.

And we could also use a lot less of these styled threads.

Spending a little more time reading out the link in the OP:

Several of the things he complains about being forced to remove are things that GW actually did under license(Judge Dredd and Rogue Trooper off the top of my head, along with the War of the Rings related rules "erratas", etc that he wrote), things that GW own(Mordheim, Advanced Space Crusade, Doom of the Eldar, etc), or just the fact that the IP protection could be running out, like we've discussed in the dozen other threads on this same friggin' topic for almost a month now.

Thanks for taking the time to contribute that.

Did I force you to open this thread? Did I force you to respond?

Its a discussion forum for people who discuss things, whether you feel it is trivial or not.

If you don't like it, do not participate. Quite simple.

Did I say it was a trivial matter? Did I say that we SHOULDN'T be discussing it?

Pretty sure I didn't.

Pretty sure that what I said is that we've had a buttload of threads recently on this very topic, and new ones continually opened.
I can understand how they sound alike though.

Sarigar wrote:Wow, I feel I've had my head buried in the sand for so long.

According to the GW site, you can't even get a tattoo depicting their IP? Really. Would they really stoop so low as to sue someone for having a tattoo? Or, you can't start a gaming club and call it the 'Warhammer Club'. Really? Did they just hire a bunch of overzealous young attorneys trying to flex their knowledge?

This really makes me a sad person.

I'm sold, next tattoo is the imperial eagle! I'll be sure to use it as my avatar everywhere.

I was going to pick up the limited Imperial Warzone before chirstmas-it saddens me to not pick it up, but I'll be passing.

MajorTom, that was beautifully presented. Well done that man.

The reasons why there have been a lot of threads on this topic are because;

A. GW launched three waves of separate repressions at weekly intervals, which reignited the debate every time it might have started to die down.

B. People care.

Fateweaver wrote:I don't apologize if I insulted someone miserable enough to hate a company that is only doing what a company does.

Chances are, Fateweaver, that your post was deleted for statements such as this one.

"Doing what a company does" is an extremely naive and black/white view of how companies operate. I doubt anyone begrudges GW making money, or even 'protecting' their IP. But the strong arm antics are over the top.

They've always been of the mind that people can do their own stuff - most recently they released a series of rules that allowed people to create their own missions - yet when someone does that, it gets removed? I also don't think removing things that copies of what you sell is an issue either - if someone is posting up stats for something for free, that's a problem. Someone doing their own summaries for a game you give away for free? Different story.

Finally, your original post had another silly statement "[lots of different companies] don't love you", or words to that effect. Umm... I don't know whether you know this or not, but they need us more than we need them. Without their customers, they cease to be a company. Taking your customer base for granted is a very stupid thing to do. And it's very clear that companies like PP and FFG do love their customers, or at the very least like them, because they seem to go out of their way to keep people interested, generate buzz, give things away, support their multiple products.

GW on the other hand keeps everything a secret, treats its customers like they were a necessary evil, and stifles community aspects of the hobby.

So stop sucking and wake up.

GW has hard decisions to make but imo this trend of topics is an overreaction but understandable.

Having surfed on all sorts of forums from the top dogs like Dakka to smaller communities; there's a lot for GW to keep an eye on. Communities like Dakka is fortunate enough to have a great moderator team working to make this place an ethical venue --- not so much for smaller sites since they either lack the ethic or manpower to make that a reality. I can understand why GW wants to keep a tighter lid on not only legal violations but rumors to boot since codices are released weeks before their release via internet leaks. In this case it can be argued that they haven't done enough to protect their properties.

I'm going to have to side with 40k Radio's attitude towards the majority of the violations specifically those that deal with blatant IP violations that GW has clearly laid out on their site. There's not much remorse for websites and such that not only are in blatant violation of GW's very reasonable conditions but they were given the opportunity to continue operations as long as they modified their ways. GW is treating these entities like they were professionals and from the legal letters released thats exactly what was delivered: a professional and reasonable experience.

Kilkrazy wrote:The reasons why there have been a lot of threads on this topic are because;

A. GW launched three waves of separate repressions at weekly intervals, which reignited the debate every time it might have started to die down.

B. People care.

Ohh KK don´t tell me that we are supposed to care about the issue. I thought that the only thing gamers were supposed to do was to buy everything GW puts on the market like nice little drones and leave thinking for the GWHQ guys

M.

I am fascinated by the attitude of some defending GW who take the stance that this is 'a business, behaving like a business should' because I can assure those people, that I deal with complaints and conflict resolution between multinational corporations on a day to day basis and none that I encounter or sit at a table and work out agreements between, would take such a childish, bullying and narrow vision on how to deal with their own fan base. Public Image, even if your public is a niche market, is vital and GWs image within the hobby and across forums, frankly stinks.

Do you really think GW gives a fig about how much time and money you've spent as an individual on their product?
If they don't, then they sure as hell deserve extinction. A trading company that doesn't care about it's customer base deserves no custom.

Moving from a 'hobby company' to a 'serious business' doesn't mean they suddenly get to not give a gak about people buying their products or providing support to them online, it means they should be taking extra steps to maintain good relations and ensure their customers are treated fairly and supported. What GWs been doing has alienated the community and seems to be entirely in defiance of common business sense.

Miguelsan wrote:Ohh KK don´t tell me that we are supposed to care about the issue. I thought that the only thing gamers were supposed to do was to buy everything GW puts on the market like nice little drones and leave thinking for the GWHQ guys

Some people here seem to think that:

A). Criticising a company or a company's actions is somehow 'wrong' and should not be done.
B). GW can do no wrong.

I wonder, and this is inspired by the Jeremy Clarkson avatar above your post Migs, what if this was a car forum, specifically a Mercedes/BMW forum. Would we have people telling us that we could never criticise Mercedes? Ever? And if their latest car was a little bit gak, we'd all just be over-the-top whiny complainers for pointing out the flaws in its manufacture?

Talking about avatars, mine is one that I made myself using a picture I found someplace with the logo of House Liao that used to be FASA´s IP. If the btech guys were using the same IP defense than GW I guess that I would receive my C&D letter soon.

M.

I wonder if the Freemasons or the descendants of the Russian Royal family the Romanovs can sue them for use of the double headed eagle?

Except the BTech guys openly support a free complete recreation of their rules that allow people to play without having to buy anything. They even have a sub-forum specifically for this free game on their boards. That speaks miles about their character and their desire to support the hobby and the community.

So I don't think you have to worry about them coming after you.