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H.B.M.C. wrote:

Miguelsan wrote:Ohh KK don´t tell me that we are supposed to care about the issue. I thought that the only thing gamers were supposed to do was to buy everything GW puts on the market like nice little drones and leave thinking for the GWHQ guys

Some people here seem to think that:

A). Criticising a company or a company's actions is somehow 'wrong' and should not be done.
B). GW can do no wrong.

I wonder, and this is inspired by the Jeremy Clarkson avatar above your post Migs, what if this was a car forum, specifically a Mercedes/BMW forum. Would we have people telling us that we could never criticise Mercedes? Ever? And if their latest car was a little bit gak, we'd all just be over-the-top whiny complainers for pointing out the flaws in its manufacture?

No, thats another problem inherent in these discussions since it gets devalued to the point where each side caricatures one another or simply does not acknowledge the other perspective. Its a problem faced in just about any forum community where there's a trend of passionate and vocal anti-Whatever the forum is. Case in point: World of Warcraft - Surf that forum and the amount of negativity makes one wonder how that game is the best MMORPG on the market much like GW is to tabletop wargaming. This problem is also further compounded by the fact that its the same people singing the same song and dancing the same dance; and gets worse when the language used becomes similar to how political parties treat eachother where hyperbole and emotion takes over instead of legitimate discussion.

Here, we have a topic beaten to death but GW has for the most part acted reasonably and professionally throughout most of these circumstances. Having army excel sheets, blatant IP violations when GW has reasonable and readily available standards, and the shady nature of some smaller communities, are all problems GW Legal has to face and they've done so reasonably well. Its understandable that there is a negative reaction to this especially if you already have a sour experience with GW, but from a business and customer perspective it doesn't seem like a big deal and instead something blown out of proportion especially since many of these cases they were allowed to operate if they complied. Definitely doesn't help that GW's has a negative history with many of us (Dark Eldar, price hikes, etc) but the inspiring things GW have done for this hobby is rarely mentioned or tossed aside, most recent of which being the Vegas contest which will hopefully boost the indy tournament scene since it adds more prestige and official bragging rights.

Cane wrote:I'm going to have to side with 40k Radio's attitude towards the majority of the violations specifically those that deal with blatant IP violations that GW has clearly laid out on their site. There's not much remorse for websites and such that not only are in blatant violation of GW's very reasonable conditions but they were given the opportunity to continue operations as long as they modified their ways.

To be fair, 40K Radio is utterly sycophantic to the Games Workshop company line. Everything GW releases is awesome by their standards, everything GW does is praiseworthy. Also, GW's conditions are not exactly "completely reasonable", given how far they go beyond what's actually mandated by law.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Do you really think GW gives a fig about how much time and money you've spent as an individual on their product?
If they don't, then they sure as hell deserve extinction. A trading company that doesn't care about it's customer base deserves no custom.

GW doesn't exist to sell product to established gamers. They exist to sell a big pile of stuff to kids who'll probably abandon it in 6-9 months, but that's okay because there's a new one born every minute. By virtue of posting on this website, we're all beyond their supposed "core demographic" already. And hey, those snot-nosed little punks don't buy their models with they own money, and are far easier to please than us, too, so it's win-win.

Better not tell them about the file of the new tyranid codex that is floating around...

Whoops.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Cane wrote:I'm going to have to side with 40k Radio's attitude towards the majority of the violations specifically those that deal with blatant IP violations that GW has clearly laid out on their site. There's not much remorse for websites and such that not only are in blatant violation of GW's very reasonable conditions but they were given the opportunity to continue operations as long as they modified their ways.

To be fair, 40K Radio is utterly sycophantic to the Games Workshop company line. Everything GW releases is awesome by their standards, everything GW does is praiseworthy. Also, GW's conditions are not exactly "completely reasonable", given how far they go beyond what's actually mandated by law.

Hmm I had always thought of 40k Radio to have awesome GW rants - they went off on GW Legal for the whole removing special characters from Blood Bowl even though they don't sell them in their most recent podcast for example. But they do side on GW Legal for the blatant "bloodbowl in the domain name" violations. Generally speaking 40k Radio has frequent and sometimes constructive criticism about the company throughout their shows although they notably are not anti-Chaos Codex and pro-GW legal when it comes to some of their actions.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:This is an example of everyone on this forum:
"Man GW just blows. They flaunt their giant corporate dicks just cuz they are the only wargaming company that has a huge international fanbase."
'The next day, at the hobby store':
"Hi, I'm here to buy some GW products."/quote]

No its not.

Perhaps the thing to do at this point is not to just stop buying GW products, but stop talking about them as well. No more playing their games at whatever gaming store you frequent, not even talking about them to anyone. Pick another game and praise it endlessly instead. Discourage any kids you know from getting into GW games. If their new core demographic is the snotnosed kids, do what you can to minimize exposure of GW products to them. That also means not selling old minis on Ebay. It's called shunning, and it just might work.

warpcrafter wrote:Perhaps the thing to do at this point is not to just stop buying GW products, but stop talking about them as well.

Then I'd have nothing to complain about. And no one to yell at.

Where's the fun in that?

warpcrafter wrote:Perhaps the thing to do at this point is not to just stop buying GW products, but stop talking about them as well. No more playing their games at whatever gaming store you frequent, not even talking about them to anyone.

I've considered this earlier, and indeed do feel a bit guilty for promoting the game by my example

Its amazing how GW feels that actions such as this have no repercussions.

I have three kids that play GW stuff on occasion, two of which are girls. My son just reached the age where he would be inside GW's self-admitted target demographic. 13 and relies on daddy's money to purchase GW peoducts. He obviously has interest due to my own involvement in gaming.

Now that's not to say we will never ever buy anything GW related ever again, but I can guarantee that his allowance will not be spent on product's derived from GW IP, which includes certain FFG materials as well. Fury of dracula, as well as a few others was planned, but I am putting the kibosh on that.

If he wants to play anything GW related, then he will use what he or I or his sisters already possess.

GW is a company with a long history. They don't seem to realize that their target demographic has grown older and made target demographics of their own. When you alienate that previous target demographic, then they will less likely be inclined to dish out the cash that the new target demographic would spend there otherwise.

They not only lost my future purchases (I really need nothing else from them, space hulk being the one purchase I was planning on this year and WotR being the fluke which nearly reeled me back in) but the future purchases I would allow my adolescent children to buy as well.

Ethics has to enter play somewhere here. If GW doesn't wish to use ethics then their consumers most certainly can make up for their shortcoming in that department.

I have friends who are equally as pissed about this recent score as I am, they also have little target demographics of their own... GW in one fell swoop have doubled their losses.

All because GW insists on removing content that has little to do with protecting their IP when targeting actual offenders.

I can't stop playing GW games, as I get store credit for running the Warhammer Leag... Wait... I mean Distant Grim Dark Future Wargame night at the FLGS. Other than a Fortress of Redemption for the store, I think that I am personally done buying GW stuff for the year however, as really there's not much I need at the moment.

Ditto. Just ordered the Fortress, and that's it. Was planning in a FW order and another big terrain order, but feth 'em.

Think I'll go and post some of my own Hulk Missions just to see if I get a C&D...

Uh...removing posted rules summaries IS protecting their IP from "actual offenders".

I'm sure if they could find an effective way to go after the kind of folk who set up the PDF torrents for new Codexes they would.

But see, here's where my problem with the whole subject immediately goes to:

Okay. I can understand them not wanting to put up rules, etc. Makes sense. I can also understand them wanting to get rid of the folks who leech off their website/imagery and the folks who make the Wars Star styled knockoffs.

What I don't get is why they don't start actually moving towards being more interactive with the customers, and actually really EXPLAINING why they're doing this or that...rather than having it resort to angry masses pouting about it on forums like Dakka/Warseer, etc.

Kanluwen wrote:
What I don't get is why they don't start actually moving towards being more interactive with the customers, and actually really EXPLAINING why they're doing this or that...rather than having it resort to angry masses pouting about it on forums like Dakka/Warseer, etc.

They did in the form of follow-up letters and I'm sure its available in the initial letter as well; at least thats what was presented in the bloodbowl thread.

Very much aware of that, I meant more using things like their Twitter feed or the "What's New Today" setups to make it public knowledge rather than just hoping that we get the actual follow-up letter from the individuals who got the C&Ds.

Kanluwen wrote:What I don't get is why they don't start actually moving towards being more interactive with the customers...

Because, as Fateweaver says, they don't care about us. We're a necessary evil. If they could conduct business without ever having to deal with the actual people who buy their products, they would.

See, I could believe that more if I wasn't actually getting a decent back & forth going right now about how Cadia stands following the 13th Black Crusade with the Black Library posters on Twitter.

But maybe that's the exception to the rule.

Could be due to them being separate departments and the understandable decision of not wanting to fan the flames so to speak by drawing even more potentially negative attention when they themselves probably consider it an overall minor issue to the larger community.

GW Legal already gave the community its justification in a professional manner.

Just out of interest what ever happened to that old adage about customer service? Goes along the lines of if you give good service the customer will passs this on to "x" amount of people, but if bad then "x" multiplies big time. I'm assuming that just because little Timmy's mum / dad is spoken to politely, then this covers the good customer service angle in GW's eyes?

Kanluwen wrote:Uh...removing posted rules summaries IS protecting their IP from "actual offenders".

I realize this. Its a pretty simple thing for even my challenged intellect to understand.

I meant the collateral damage such as many fan made files that are connected to their games, but are original works of the crators not associated with GW that got the ax either through BGG just saying "screw it, we are tired of GW sending C&D letters to us so we are getting rid of any chance that they will whine at us again." or because that the C&D specifically targeted them in their request.

I think its more likely that content was removed by BGG for the reasons given above, but that's merely supposition.

Cane wrote:Could be due to them being separate departments and the understandable decision of not wanting to fan the flames so to speak by drawing even more potentially negative attention when they themselves probably consider it an overall minor issue to the larger community.

GW Legal already gave the community its justification in a professional manner.

That is what I choose to believe. I don't get the camp that hates GW product as well as legal. I really like what they do otherwise, fluff, minis, game additions. And I can't imagine that the guys in the studio who play and work around the hobby have any say in the matter.

Hellfury wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Uh...removing posted rules summaries IS protecting their IP from "actual offenders".

I realize this. Its a pretty simple thing for even my challenged intellect to understand.

I meant the collateral damage such as many fan made files that are connected to their games, but are original works of the creators not associated with GW that got the ax either through BGG just saying "screw it, we are tired of GW sending C&D letters to us so we are getting rid of any chance that they will whine at us again." or because that the C&D specifically targeted them in their request.

I think its more likely that content was removed by BGG for the reasons given above, but that's merely supposition.

Okay, that argument makes more sense to me. I thought you were implying that the rules summaries, etc were an okay thing to have up.

But, from what I understand:

They don't have issues with you posting fanmade scenarios, etc. But you can't just copy/paste special rules from existing scenarios, or use statlines/event cards/cardboardtilecutouts and post them on the intarwebs claiming them to be your exclusive property.

However, it does make me kinda worried about the future of my current project of converting Space Hulk to work with a Kasrkin kill-team boarding a Plague Hulk and fighting swarms of zombies.

Yea, its lawyers you should hate here and not so much the parts of GW we become addicted to. I suppose it could be argued that GW execs still have the final say but to ignore professional legal advice doesn't seem like a common practice for most businesses especially in cases of clear and potentially dangerous legal violations.

Of course it's the lawyers. No one here is blaming Jervis (besides me) for this fiasco. Still, other departments should have begun to notice the bad feedback by now, right?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Of course it's the lawyers. No one here is blaming Jervis (besides me) for this fiasco. Still, other departments should have begun to notice the bad feedback by now, right?

We can't take you blaming Jervis seriously anymore HBMC. When you blamed him for stealing your pancakes was the final straw!

On topic:

I dunno. It might very well be that it's a case of each not knowing just what in the heck the other is doing.

GW undoubtedly surfs these forums and noticed; which is why I think GW Legal sent that follow up letter in the first place. I wouldn't be surprised if they were frustrated by some of our responses since they have a website page explaining their Do's and Don'ts.

To them they may also think this is also an overall minor issue to the larger community or something along the lines of a necessary evil.

Kanluwen wrote:However, it does make me kinda worried about the future of my current project of converting Space Hulk to work with a Kasrkin kill-team boarding a Plague Hulk and fighting swarms of zombies.

I share the sentiment. Lots of work going down the tubes when an order is given for its removal.
Not that the work is for nothing as you will still enjoy it. Although when that much effort is put into a project, people generally like to share the fruits of their labor for others to likewise enjoy.

I have literally months of design work I worry about distributing, just to have GW serve me a C&D.

I beleive this is the main cause of the ire that arises in many people. Sure there are idiots stating that they are mad that their photocopy of the rules are taken down, but even that has a bit of plausible logic when certain games haven't seen the light of day in decades. Not a great excuse mind you, but can be viewed as reasonable when looked at from a certain perspective.

Well see, the thing about outdated games I've got a theory on.

They can be claimed as the IP of the individual creators who were involved in making the items, or in the case of Judge Dredd/Rogue Trooper/The Eternal Champion setups--they no longer have the licenses for them anyways.

It's more effective/cheaper for them to just send C&Ds out than fight it out to keep the IPs and let you repost them.

Hmm... you've even removed the Hulk links from your sig. What about your blog?

Fateweaver wrote:For right now they kiss your ass. The best way to make money is to make people happy. GW (and they aren't the only ones who do it) make enough money off new people buying products that they don't HAVE to care and listen to customers.

I'd bet my entire school loan that were PP and Corvus Belli were as big as GW they'd do whatever fits their agenda or whatever draws new people.

They aren't as big as GW so they need to PRETEND to care more.

No...I don't think this is right at all. They may turn into GW if they get as big as GW, but that doesn't mean they are only pretending to care at the moment. Many of the small producers are hobbyists themselves and you are treated with consideration and genuine enthusiasm when you deal with them. They do care, not only about their customers but about the quality of their product and supporting the gaming community. It's the same with many staff in GW shops, aside from the pressure they are under to sell, most are genuine hobbyists and do what they do for the love of it. They have enthusiasm for the identity product, the look, the feel and the fluff. It seems to be the people running GW at the top are the problem; bean counters there solely to run a business without understanding the nature of what they are running, they dont seem to invest genuine enthusiasm for the Warhammer idea but see it as a 'supply and demand' company like any other, they might as well be selling clothes. This is what happens when you turn from a "by hobbyists for hobbyists" approach into a toy company approach, something which Wargaming doesn't seem to lend itself to. It could be a natural result of just getting too big, but Mr Tamyia has a large hobby company and they support magazines, museums and other hobbyist events.

The whole thing would turn into a badly run toy shop if it wasn't for the fact that the bean counters rely so heavily on their hobbyist redshirts and studio staff to prop up the "hobby" side of their image and that's what they don't seem to appreciate - the fact that it's still a games company with a strong hobby element. Most people get a shop wage for running things through a till, they don't get it for painting up armies to tabletop quality, building scenery and running campaigns and games in the store. Normal people wouldn't do that, it's too much cigarette, the people who are doing it like doing it because they love Warhammer not because they are being paid. If GW had to employ normal people into their shops there'd soon be a change, because currently the GW business model works by taking the enthusiasm of the staff and customers for granted. That will only continue to work if they nurture it instead of trying to smash it. At the moment GW doesn't seem to know if it's toy company or a wargame/hobby company. I think they're in a much better market as a hobby company than trying to turn into a corporate toy company because they can take advantage of the huge amount of free support through enthusiastic customers and staff. At the moment they are crushing this support base but continuing to run their business hoping to maintain the image of a hobby company. It's simply not going to work in my opinion.

Just to ask a question- and in response to a few people who suggested that the SH fan made video game was awesome for GW and resulted in people coming back to the hobby-

Thats great- I like that alot

However what does that do if it is allowed to continue, or even expand, to the relationship between GW and THQ- who it would appear have the sole rights to make 40k based video games- surely they'd have a bit of a fit and may land GW in hotwater? Like legal very expensive hot water?


*edit*
I think with this there is a whole huge pile more to it than this discussion covers- because there will be reasons for things to be done the way they have been- I don't know what they are, they may be good- they may be bad- that comes down to your perspective. From a big picture I'd say its a good thing to ask fan-made video games to stop if it halts massive problems with THQ :-p