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warpcrafter wrote:Perhaps the thing to do at this point is not to just stop buying GW products, but stop talking about them as well. No more playing their games at whatever gaming store you frequent, not even talking about them to anyone. Pick another game and praise it endlessly instead. Discourage any kids you know from getting into GW games. If their new core demographic is the snotnosed kids, do what you can to minimize exposure of GW products to them. That also means not selling old minis on Ebay. It's called shunning, and it just might work.

This is a better strategy than some. I might add some of these points to give anyone who is considering such action to help them come up with their own plan. Whether you are in it for two months, till a certain action is taken, or forever, I hope this helps someone with their plan.

1. Be complete. Don't buy or touch a GW product in public. Don't even check out a BL book from the library. This should also include any other company using GW IP, including computer games or RPG books (no matter how pretty the FFG stuff is).

2. If you have a normal supplier, inform them you will not be buying more GW product, but are switching to xy and z.

3. Be visible. Make a commitment to go to to your FLGS or club every week and play another system. If it isn't one that is popular in your area make sure you have multiple armies and that they are painted.

4. Be positive. This maybe the tough one. Don't sit around and complain about GW. You will come off as that angry crank. Nobody likes that guy. If the only way you can talk up your game is by downgrading GW, then you don't have a strong sell. Don't insult GW players either, this will either drive them to stick with GW or drive them out of the hobby. Signing on to forums and trashing every single piece GW releases will only get you or the forum ignored. If it is bad, say so, otherwise leave it be. Your game is awesome, and that is all that matters.

5. Don't be too positive. If you come of as a shill (gaming has quite a few of those, which has only increased in the viral marketing age) you can make your task harder. Especially don't say as a protest everyone should play this specific game, that kind of goes against the spirit that most people are talking about. Be open to everyone and embrace the hobby, but just don't be the creepy guy either.

6. Be engaging. Yes, even with those bad gamer stereotypes (or their parents). Be free with advice, stories, and knowledge about different games. The less GW comes up in those conversations, the better you are doing.

7. Be patient, it may take a while before you feel like any progress has been made, if any. There are no small victories, only victories in situations like this. You are an individual, this movement (if it is such) is probably not in the majority. The world will not remake itself overnight. The If GW does feel that veterans are not worth the effort, you may make them feel they are justified in that. Certain crass actions would only help justify that in their minds. Also, the nice thing about patience is that it allows for evolution.

8. You are ultimately in this for you. Know what your goals are. Yes, you love the hobby, but it is your hobby. Keep your goals ahead of others expectations.

9. Keep in contact. Knowing others haven't forgotten will make it easier. Don't get sucked into the divides that are sure to pop up.

10. GW can still exist in your world. Trash talk (or even the occasional praise) them with people you know. Play 40k with your friends at home. The above is kind of your public personae; its almost like a job. Keep your goals in mind, and stick to your plan. If you do fall off the wagon, or meet your goal, remember you aren't giving up, just tasting a new flavor of ice cream.

jabbakahut wrote:

Cane wrote:Could be due to them being separate departments and the understandable decision of not wanting to fan the flames so to speak by drawing even more potentially negative attention when they themselves probably consider it an overall minor issue to the larger community.

GW Legal already gave the community its justification in a professional manner.

That is what I choose to believe. I don't get the camp that hates GW product as well as legal. I really like what they do otherwise, fluff, minis, game additions. And I can't imagine that the guys in the studio who play and work around the hobby have any say in the matter.

It is one of the problems of brand building.

GW are a brand. The point of building a brand is to make customers like your brand so they will preferentially buy your products/services over rivals who may objectively be equally good or even better/cheaper.

Anything that pisses off your customers damages their perception of your brand. It will probably damage your sales, even though it doesn't affect the objective quality of what you are selling.

GW made a serious error with the second round of 'legal' action. The mistake was to unfairly pressurise companies who are filling a gap in the market which GW apparently don't care to fill, and to threaten their own customers with a crippled product.

It's like Ford threatening car buyers they will tune the engine of your next car for lower power if you don't buy Ford tyres.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW made a serious error with the second round of 'legal' action.

I have enough unassembled bits that I can never buy a GW item for the next year and still have plenty to do. The problem is that GW, like politicians, will always assign the wrong reasons for their policy failures, reinforce their mindset that they are on the right track, and proceeed blithely along the same course.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Hmm... you've even removed the Hulk links from your sig. What about your blog?

Still there, content is geared towards a different direction now.

And that direction would be Aliens?

If so, I have to say that that's a very ironic choice, given that the term 'Foxed' came about thanks to an Aliens mod for the original Quake.

I hope it was chosen with irony as its intention...

Agamemnon2 wrote:
GW doesn't exist to sell product to established gamers. They exist to sell a big pile of stuff to kids who'll probably abandon it in 6-9 months, but that's okay because there's a new one born every minute. By virtue of posting on this website, we're all beyond their supposed "core demographic" already. And hey, those snot-nosed little punks don't buy their models with they own money, and are far easier to please than us, too, so it's win-win.

The problem with this theory is what happens to all the stuff they buy while they're in the hobby? They sell it for cheap to somebody else or on e-bay. What this does is removes a person that may buy new figs from the equation. As a business they would be better suited to not only draw new gamers but to somehow keep them loyal thus reducing the "recycle" factor. They obviously don't make money from ebay or individual resale this means that at some point in the future, the amount of resale activity will exceed the new sale activity which will result in reduction of profit. They alleviate some of this by making new figs, new rules, etc; however, all that does is create small bursts of economic activity.

Overall I say it's a business model (if in fact this is their business model) that is doomed to failure.

I've been pondering this whole issue of IP protection and reflecting on it in the light of recent developments in the UK regarding anti-file-sharing (http://www.boingboing.net/2009/11/26/how-britains-pirate.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+boingboing%2FiBag+%28Boing+Boing%29&utm_content=Google+Reader)

There are real elements of David vs Goliath, fighting against "the man", "might makes right" and all the rest of it here, wrapped up in our own little corner of geekdom.

The best thing that might come out of it is perhaps for many of us to realise that GW (as with any corporate entity) are not our friends, not fellow-hobbyists (although they may employ many in their ranks of employees) but they are out and out hostile to us in that they ONLY want our money. Not a shocking revelation, and something I have been very well aware of myself for a few years now, but this kind of behaviour of theirs really brings it home.

So it brings it back to the issue of ethical consumption. Ultimately our only power in the democratic "West" is as customers ("consumers") and voters. Clearly lobbying parliament has its limitations and while possibly effective in macro situations (I've written to my MP over 3 seperate issues over the last year or so, how often have you written to yours? Each time I have receieed a well composed and personal response, clearly addressing my concerns and laying out his thoughts on the matter. I recommend the device if you haven't tried it before and you are of voting age.) This leaves customer action. I.e. the choice to buy or not to buy. Ultimately the rational consumer spends his money to achieve the maximum personal utility from that spend. So questions like "Does this company support my hobby or hinder it?" is a rational input as we consider what to buy. If nothing else, I hope it this whole furore has caused some of us to question where and why we spend money. Unthinkingly splurging £100's on the latest New Hotness from GW just because we get sucked in by the hype in WD is possibly now seen by more people as not the most rational use of their money. Maybe a better use would be to splurge on a new release from a company that isn't all about the senior executives getting mega-rich as quickly as possible, but about building a new idea and simply producing product at as good a quality level as possible.

For many years I have been an advocate of "fan" over "professional" when it comes to any hobby. Ultimately I strongly believe that on a level playing field, "fans" produce stuff of better quality because they care more deeply than someone who produces something simply because they are paid to do so. Now of course, a commercial company with financial backing can have some advantages when it comes to physical product (like, say, plastic terrain pieces), but when it comes to intellectual property or stuff requiring only small amounts of capital (like metal figure production), GW's absolutely pathetic record of producing inadequate and under-developed rules speaks for itself.

So, I do think now is (again) the time for those upset by this turn of events to really consider what messages you are giving every time you empty your wallet. Are you cutting your own throat by supporting a game system produced by a company that really couldn't give two hoots about quality and customer experience, are are you going to invest in the long term of our wargaming hobby and invest a little more effort in supporting the activities of companies and organisations that are more about producing true value for money for their customers?

Stopping spending on GW product (or at least cutting down on it) may seem somewhat of a lilliputian response to matters, but seriously, what else can we do? And ultimately it is about our own enjoyment of our own hobby. You can choose to support someone or something that helps build up your hobby, or you can support someone who is intent on tearing it down and using it for their own purposes.

I strongly believe that the rational response is to reclaim the hobby for ourselves and all that means is giving independent companies the break that they deserve! Even if we don't want to go "cold turkey", taking a small action like subscribing to The Ancible or Wargames Illustrated even in addition to White Dwarf, will all help in the long run!

Hellfury wrote:
While I understand that GW has the right to viciously enforce their IP,

Its this caveat often brought out and fine on face value that gets my goat. No disrespect to Hellfury. I am angry with GW not the thread or members here.

GW might have the right to defend IP and furthermore have the obligation lest they lose it, part of the3 minutiae of IP law. But they are amongst the biggest IP thieves in the business and I hate litigious hypocrasy.

They trademark and 'defend' their own names and concepts etc and blatantly steal from others IP because they are smaller than them. Just one example to get the ball rolling:

GW enforce 'their' IP over weapon names, even if the names are used in different circumstances, yet blatantly copy individual weapon names in identical circumstances.
GZG Full Trust has a super weapon spinal mount called the nova cannon. Which is long ranged only fired forward and incredibly destructive.
In GW's Battlefleet Gothic there are two such weapons, the Armageddon gun which is a unique weapon, and another weapon which is a forward mounted only spinal weapon called the nova cannon.

Full Thrust predates BFG by about ten years and the weapon was an invented name for both games, there is no real world analogy in any ship past or present and it is not a standard science fiction concept under that name. Nova cannon is the IP of GZG, a small but well known company with two employees. Now if the same had happened in reverse you could imagine GW reacting as if someone had set fire to their tits.

I can mention other examples from the Chaos star, now considered GW exclusive IP but belonging to Michael Morcock (who was pissed off at this but can do nothing) and worst of all attempts to trademarks names from the Bible - can you find any document more public domain that that. Abaddon, no thats not Games Workshops IP, thats Book of Revelations.

I hqave little respect for GW's IP policy which is a simple matter of bullying competition and stealing what they can for exclusive use. Call your elves High Elves and Dark elves, they will come after you, but they aren't big enough to threaten Bethesda and don't try. Furthermore old White Dwarfs themselves have adds for independent companies selling High Elves and Dark Elves under those names two or three years before the first edition of Warhammer. I know this because I have the back issues from the time.

We need someone to stand their ground for a test case. After Lucas took on 1st ed Battlestar Galactica and lost the doors were opened for space opera to proliferate. After White Wolf took on Underworld and lost they could not stop Twilight. While Twilight is crap, its nice to see the folklore thieves at White Wolf (all your vampire/werewolf belong to us) get told that such concepts are public domain and not for their exclusive use. Games Workshop is long overdue the same treatment.

Good post Orlanth. GW are morally bankrupt over this. Part of the issue I was trying to grasp in my post above was the discomfort I feel at being bullied in my hobby by greedy corporate types. I think I failed where you succeeded!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When it comes to test cases, I know Hasslefree got a recent C&D over his selling of a Troll Slayer-type dwarf model. He is intent on fighting back as he thinks it is ridiculous for GW to claim copyright over the concept of a bare-chested mohican-wearing fantasy dwarf miniature when his sculpt was an original sculpt and not a copy in any way of a GW model. It will be interesting to see how it goes. Again, so much of my disconcert is over the way GW arrogantly are assuming control over areas where legally, and certainly morally, they have none. Bullying and arrogance in the name of profit! Bastards.

Orlanth wrote:We need someone to stand their ground for a test case.

You willing to pay for it? That's going to be some pricy lawyering.

Orlanth wrote:After White Wolf took on Underworld and lost...

I didn't realize they actually took on Underworld. Given the costs, I thought they gave up at the start and made some emo posts about it on their web site. Not that I think they have a case, mind you.

Breotan wrote:

Orlanth wrote:We need someone to stand their ground for a test case.

You willing to pay for it? That's going to be some pricy lawyering.

It may not need to go that far. GW are clearly trying out cases where their ground is very thin (see my post above) and their own lawyers may be shy of taking it to court. Arguing the toss in your own response letter may be all that is required. It is brinkmanship. All that is required is courage, not necessarily funds.

There is a grand tradition of "take-down" notices on the internet by bullying corporate shysters, and the likes of Youtube and eBay often find it easier to take stuff down rather than get the opinion of the person allegedly infringing copyright. It strikes me that GW are relying on the fear of those threatened, rather than on the fact that they have any substantive case (in many cases, not in all cases). For instance they have managed to get BGG to take down author's original works which GW never actually had copyright over.

Although I appreciate that it is easy for me to say as I have nothing at stake here, so I am not criticising those who have been caused sleepless nights by GW's strongarm tactics..

Item plus: IIRC Varwulf a GW tm is werewolf in German. I think that there should be a way to limit what you can trademark so at least is something original not plunder from the dictionary.

M.

Lets face facts: The bulk of GW's customer base will never abandon them in mass.

Nerds love their nerd fodder.

Heck if I was gonna boycott GW over getting "bent over" in some way it should have been when they NUKED not one but two complete armies that I spent many hundreds of dollars on and a huge amount of time painting and converting (Genestealer cult and LATD).

It should have been when they stopped supporting all the specialist games I spent vast sums upon without so much as an apology or explanation.

Now I'm supposed to get all hot and bothered because they shut down and/or threatened a few websites for games I can't buy or play anyways because GW has effectively starved them to death support-wise?

GW is doing what GW has always done. This isn't news. GW does what GW wants. And we will keep buying...

I'm a GW nerd and I love my GW crack. That being said what I have done is paired back my investment in GW:

I used to be the guy that bought every new and codex army. I rarely had less then 4-5 armies in the works or being actively collected.

No more.

I have one army, and I made sure it was a CORE army: orks. Orks are not gonna disappear from 40K. I refuse to get burned again by GW's love of nuking non-core armies and sideline games.

All that money I used to spend on the three or four other GW armies or specialty products/games I now spend on other games from other companies.

CT GAMER wrote:
GW is doing what GW has always done. This isn't news. GW does what GW wants. And we will keep buying...

You do not speak for all of us here friend, some of us, who have a sizeable amount of cash to spend, will not be. Some of us value our respect as consumers over our 'need' of the product.

There are other manufacturers than this... I may well be playing 40k till my old(er) age, but the miniatures I choose to build armies with are mine to purchase from whomever I please.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
GW is doing what GW has always done. This isn't news. GW does what GW wants. And we will keep buying...

You do not speak for all of us here friend, some of us, who have a sizeable amount of cash to spend, will not be. Some of us value our respect as consumers over our 'need' of the product.

Good for you. However the vast majority of GW consumers will perhaps grumble for a bit when these sort of things happen then quickly forget about it all when the next shiny new thing hits the shelf...

You are a drop in the bucket. I predict you will see NO effective mass scale boycott come to be on the part of GW consumers.

For every guy like you there are 50-100 little "Timmies" using Mom and dad's credit card to buy massive amounts of GW product on a regular basis.

For every cranky old timer like you or I that might quit there are ranks of kiddies lining up to take our place.

for short attention spans, skip to 7

Some of my background

1. Played 40k & fantasy on and off for 10 years or so. The only reason I get back into it is when a friend is interested and I agree to do an army at the same time as them.
2. Have not bought a GW mini for almost a year now and have no plans on getting any soon. Have bought Skaven book out of curiousity/nostalgia.

My opinion/understanding on what determines how companies act

3. Money. So if it is profitable, do it more; if it isn't, do it less.
4. This includes losing money on one hand to gain money in a different way.

My opinion on GWs implimentation of above.

5. If we keep everything secret, they have to buy it to know if they like it.
a. So this works well for people that are perfectly happy just grabbing a starter box, a paint set, a codex, some glue and slapping all together and giving it a go. For GW, this works great for the young and energetic crowd. (me 10 years ago)
b. For the more cautious/money worried people this can be a turn off, but then again, they wouldn't be spending that much anyway. (apply point 4, lose X b/c people are turned off by secretism, gain 2X from people buying stuff just to see if they like it)
c. This really pisses me off after getting out of my GW shell and learning about other games/companies. (PP, FOW, Infinity). I have done the horrible of downloading books in the past just to see if I wanted to get into an army. (To any crazy lawyers, that isn't a confession as I didn't say what books). Then I went to PP and found mkII free online, read it, liked it, bought 2 armies and still working on them. Same thing with Infinity.
d. In practicality, PP and Infinity are taking advantage of people like me and applying point 4 (above) in that they may lose 50% of rule book sales, but a lot of people will want the professionally produced copy still, and they may get three times as many starters into the game, which will return lots o' cash.

Point of View on Ethical Buying/Changing a companies business practise.

6. So going with point 3, how you spend your money is a direct endorsement of that companies business practises. It's just like any other spending. If you are willing to pay $5 more for a product because you know the company behind it is local, pays its employees a fair wage (not 3rd world wages), follows strict environmental guidelines (from your country) than you will show a company that it is worth doing those things. If a company instead finds that they can sell more, by cutting a cost along with all those things I mentioned (ie by moving production to China) than you are encouraging them to do it b/c you care more about money than anything else.

7. Applying ethical buying to gaming (not just GW). If you consider supporting the community important, put your money where your mouth is. If you think the legal practises of a company are bullying or excessive, put your money where your mouth is. If you think GW is the company that produces the best game, in the best way, following the best practises, than buy GW. Personnally, I will try to but at a FLGS over the internet as the internet doesn't give me a place to play, and doesn't host clubs, or doesn't have a guy behind the counter who will honestly tell me "This isn't that good a game" b/c that's the kind of guy he is.

8. All the above applied to GW: I don't like the way GW is behaving, so I won't buy there. I don't care about right or wrong in this regard 'cause, they don't either (see point 3). I will reward other companies b/c I like what they are doing, and in my childish naivete I will hope that the 0.001% loss of income that I generate for GW might just make them step back and look at the other companies who gained 0.001% income and try to copy them! Mind you, if enough people do it, it just might work.

PS. There was a case (paizo.com) I believe that got hit with a C&D for using GW copyrighted photos (the boxes) when selling GW stuff online. I don't care if you'd rather have people by directly from you, that's just bugs me. Think of the real life parallel. Oh Mr. FLGS, you have to black out all the boxes for you GW products! (man, that's what Canada does for cigarettes to keep people from buying them...)

Breotan wrote:

Orlanth wrote:After White Wolf took on Underworld and lost...

I didn't realize they actually took on Underworld. Given the costs, I thought they gave up at the start and made some emo posts about it on their web site. Not that I think they have a case, mind you.

Odd, I was pretty sure Sony settled out of court with White Wolf, mainly as although most of the IP was not something they could be done for although there where many serious similarities, White Wolf had them over the barrel with the 'Abomination' thus they paid an undisclossed fee and never again was it mentioned.

I might be wrong though, but I'm sure at the time Conrad posted something on the official forums about it.


edit - A quick look on wiki links to this site, I'm sure there is more info out there, but aye there was a confidential settlement between them. Doesn't sound like White Wolf losing tbh, why would there be any kind of settlement if they where going to lose.

http://www.avvo.com/case/view/collins-and-white-wolf-v--sony-pictures-11181

CT GAMER wrote: For every cranky old timer like you or I that might quit there are ranks of kiddies lining up to take our place.

Except there aren't. As GW's published accounts show, year on year, in real terms, sales of 40k and WFB have fallen in volume every year since 2001. Kiddies may (or may not - there is no reliable data either within GW or without it) outnumber "vets" when it comes to sales. But the level of player attrition is still positive. Its all one more nail in the coffin.

Osbad wrote:

CT GAMER wrote: For every cranky old timer like you or I that might quit there are ranks of kiddies lining up to take our place.

Except there aren't. As GW's published accounts show, year on year, in real terms, sales of 40k and WFB have fallen in volume every year since 2001. Kiddies may (or may not - there is no reliable data either within GW or without it) outnumber "vets" when it comes to sales. But the level of player attrition is still positive. Its all one more nail in the coffin.

Video games will surely spell the end of traditional wargaming in time. The old timers are gonna dye off eventually, and the young ones like the technology and instant gratification of videogaming.

That being said GW is not gonna base it's business decisions on what some cranky guys on a web forum think. Actual major sales loses that can be traced to an organized player boycott might, but that boycott is never gonna happen.

Look at this very thread: People saying things like "sure I won't buy anything else this year because I already have made all my purchases for x army I need currently" or "I'm gonna buy the fortress of redemption because it is really cool, but then I'll boycott", etc., etc. Wow, that is really sticking it to the man...

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:...why would there be any kind of settlement if they where going to lose.

Cheaper to settle.

Osbad wrote: year on year, in real terms, sales of 40k and WFB have fallen in volume every year since 2001.

CT GAMER wrote:Video games will surely spell the end of traditional wargaming in time. The old timers are gonna dye off eventually, and the young ones like the technology and instant gratification of videogaming.

I don't buy that at all. People will always write with a pen and paper no matter what technological terrors are created.

CT GAMER wrote:That being said GW is not gonna base it's business decisions on what some cranky guys on a web forum think. Actual major sales loses that can be traced to an organized player boycott might, but that boycott is never gonna happen.

GamesWorkshop Annual report 2009 wrote:There are no silver bullets for growing sales at Games Workshop. It requires a consistent focus on the basics of
recruiting new hobbyists through our Hobby centres and using our games to teach them how to buy, build, paint and
collect ever larger armies of miniatures. We retain these hobbyists as customers by releasing fantastic new products an
running exciting activities to keep everyone engaged in the Hobby. By growing our active customer base in this way, our
sales to independent retailers (trade) and direct businesses benefit as well. It is simple to say, but hard to do, which is
why it all comes down to the strength of our management teams in each sales business and in particular the quality of
our managers in each Hobby centre.

CT GAMER wrote:Look at this very thread: People saying things like "sure I won't buy anything else this year because I already have made all my purchases for x army I need currently" or "I'm gonna buy the fortress of redemption because it is really cool, but then I'll boycott", etc., etc. Wow, that is really sticking it to the man...

Hey don't be such a downer, half the effort of boycotting is saying you're going to boycott. There's no boycott gestapo going around checking if the people who claim they're boycotting are actually boycotting, that would defeat the purpose of the boycott.

I must admit, the arguments for boycotting are slowly turning me around.
It's not like I even have as much money to spend as I used to.
What so shocking about all of this is that they could have protected their IP easily without causing such a massive negative backlash. It's so dumb and clumsy. We're not (all) unreasonable people. We realise GW must protect it's IP. But the way in which it is being done is unfriendly and not that professional either, in my opinion. Let me put it this way. I'm teaching at the moment in a tough school. There's two ways to get control in the classroom in this situation. You can go in strongarm, yelling and screaming, and terrify the kids into compliance, or you can be firm, polite and approachable, plan everything to a tee, take the kids interests and strengths and weaknesses into account and teach them. The latter works better, is more rewarding and is more likely to give you the end result you want (ie. the kids learning). It's a little bit more work but is definitely worth it. I feel like this is directly comparable to GW- they could engage with the community, have patience, and still protect their IP. They'd probably shift way more product that way too, because the product is good quality (miniatures and background anyway, and the rules aren't bad so much as poorly supported). Instead, they bull in in the lazy and confrontational way that's going to piss people off and lose them custom. Completely avoidable. Dumbasses.

Boycotting GW just means don't buy any of their product.

It's not like going on hunger strike or setting yourself on fire as a protest.

I agree. It does however involve a rejigging of my plans for the future, and probably a change of gaming groups. It's not the biggest inconvenience in the world, but also, I'm not nearly as outraged as I am about, say, child slavery, so it is compartively a large action to take for me.

Why need to change groups?

meh.. its 6 and two 3s to me, i mean, sure i can hate the big corporate lawyers, but i love their stuff so much i dont think i WANT to boycott them.

Also, at the end of the day, alot of these sites make money for advertising, i mean, if i wrote X and then someone reprinted my X on a website that made alot of money because after it got to 100,000 hits, so company Y gave them 50,000 dollars to put a banner up.

Surely i deserve most of that 50,000 bucks right?

Makes sense to me.

I dont know about Dakka, but surely alot of guys have made alot of money, by just making a website with all of another guys stuff on it? That seems a tad unfair to me.

I can't seem to access the OP's link. I get to Board Game Geek, but there's no text or anything.

As for a boycott, I don't buy much new from GW, and I'm getting into FOW, but I'm simply going to base my buying habits on one simple question: how can I get the most utility and fun out of my hobby dollar? If that's buying GW, I buy GW. If not, I buy something else. Knowing that GW might quash some of my fun at a later date is good info, and I certainly sympathize with those directly affected, but it's not going to stop me from having fun.

jabbakahut wrote:

Right, thats total dolalrs(er...pounds).

Units sold per do not match the same scale, in fact declined to 2007 last I checked.

avantgarde wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Look at this very thread: People saying things like "sure I won't buy anything else this year because I already have made all my purchases for x army I need currently" or "I'm gonna buy the fortress of redemption because it is really cool, but then I'll boycott", etc., etc. Wow, that is really sticking it to the man...

Hey don't be such a downer, half the effort of boycotting is saying you're going to boycott. There's no boycott gestapo going around checking if the people who claim they're boycotting are actually boycotting, that would defeat the purpose of the boycott.

No. a boycott is an actual act of not buying as a means to show a company your displeasure or as a way to uphold one's own principles.

People saying they are gonna stick it to the man by not buying his product but only after they buy all the things they currently want is not a boycott and is actually rather comical/sad at the same time...

mattyrm wrote: sure i can hate the big corporate lawyers, but i love their stuff so much i dont think i WANT to boycott them.

Thanks for proving my point...

Kilkrazy wrote:Why need to change groups?

My group are pretty much all die hard GW players who play at a very competative level. I'd have trouble converting them to other systems I imagine. Still, changing groups wouldn't be that big a deal, there's lots of friendly folks at the FLGS.