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this is why i'm switching to thoer companies. i already have my armies to 2250. sure, if things change in a codex i may rejig my lists and buy another small thing to make them back to 2250, but thats it.

Kilkrazy wrote:The reasons why there have been a lot of threads on this topic are because;

A. GW launched three waves of separate repressions at weekly intervals, which reignited the debate every time it might have started to die down.

B. People care.

C. With the release of the SW codex we've got nothing to debate for a few months.

If only GW would overwhelm us with new codex releases, we'd have no time to debate their ethical positions. (hint hint)

CT GAMER wrote:

avantgarde wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Look at this very thread: People saying things like "sure I won't buy anything else this year because I already have made all my purchases for x army I need currently" or "I'm gonna buy the fortress of redemption because it is really cool, but then I'll boycott", etc., etc. Wow, that is really sticking it to the man...

Hey don't be such a downer, half the effort of boycotting is saying you're going to boycott. There's no boycott gestapo going around checking if the people who claim they're boycotting are actually boycotting, that would defeat the purpose of the boycott.

No. a boycott is an actual act of not buying as a means to show a company your displeasure or as a way to uphold one's own principles.

People saying they are gonna stick it to the man by not buying his product but only after they buy all the things they currently want is not a boycott and is actually rather comical/sad at the same time...

You are so wrong it's not even funny, the act of "boycotting" has nothing to do with actually boycotting. Real boycotting is when you get a bunch of people to make a bunch of promises and noise about "boycotting". The goal is to make it look like a threat, whether or not it actually is one is immaterial. Once you have enough people shouting for a boycott, it influences others to buy less of the company's products, because it gives the impression the company is doing something wrong. It's easier and more effective to convince an ignorant majority to buy less then an angry minority to stop buying altogether. If you want to boycott GW properly you can still buy GW products, just do it online where people won't see it.

I do agree that people saying they will stop after buying what they want is bad form and hurts the boycott. They should just lie and say straight up they won't buy GW products and buy what they want under the table.

avantgarde wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

avantgarde wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Look at this very thread: People saying things like "sure I won't buy anything else this year because I already have made all my purchases for x army I need currently" or "I'm gonna buy the fortress of redemption because it is really cool, but then I'll boycott", etc., etc. Wow, that is really sticking it to the man...

Hey don't be such a downer, half the effort of boycotting is saying you're going to boycott. There's no boycott gestapo going around checking if the people who claim they're boycotting are actually boycotting, that would defeat the purpose of the boycott.

No. a boycott is an actual act of not buying as a means to show a company your displeasure or as a way to uphold one's own principles.

People saying they are gonna stick it to the man by not buying his product but only after they buy all the things they currently want is not a boycott and is actually rather comical/sad at the same time...

You are so wrong it's not even funny, the act of "boycotting" has nothing to do with actually boycotting. Real boycotting is when you get a bunch of people to make a bunch of promises and noise about "boycotting". The goal is to make it look like a threat, whether or not it actually is one is immaterial. Once you have enough people shouting for a boycott, it influences others to buy less of the company's products, because it gives the impression the company is doing something wrong. It's easier and more effective to convince an ignorant majority to buy less then an angry minority to stop buying altogether. If you want to boycott GW properly you can still buy GW products, just do it online where people won't see it.

I do agree that people saying they will stop after buying what they want is bad form and hurts the boycott. They should just lie and say straight up they won't buy GW products and buy what they want under the table.

boy·cott (boikt)
tr.v. boy·cott·ed, boy·cott·ing, boy·cotts:

To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion. See Synonyms at blackball.

Anything else is aimless internet "nerd rage" and posturing...

avantgarde wrote:
People saying they are gonna stick it to the man by not buying his product but only after they buy all the things they currently want is not a boycott and is actually rather comical/sad at the same time... You are so wrong it's not even funny, the act of "boycotting" has nothing to do with actually boycotting. Real boycotting is when you get a bunch of people to make a bunch of promises and noise about "boycotting". The goal is to make it look like a threat, whether or not it actually is one is immaterial. Once you have enough people shouting for a boycott, it influences others to buy less of the company's products, because it gives the impression the company is doing something wrong. It's easier and more effective to convince an ignorant majority to buy less then an angry minority to stop buying altogether. If you want to boycott GW properly you can still buy GW products, just do it online where people won't see it.

I do agree that people saying they will stop after buying what they want is bad form and hurts the boycott. They should just lie and say straight up they won't buy GW products and buy what they want under the table.

That is only as true as how sensitive the company is to public perception. GW has proven that they are not that sensitive, so bottomline numbers have more impact.

^^^I'm not talking about how the company thinks people perceive it. I'm advocating influencing your own social circle by telling others that you are boycotting, the act of "boycotting" doesn't matter, but by saying you are, it alters peoples' perception of that company and they buy less from it.

boy·cott (boikt)
tr.v. boy·cott·ed, boy·cott·ing, boy·cotts:

To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion. See Synonyms at blackball.

Argumentum ad verecundiam. The definition of a word isn't an argument. YMDC is proof of that.

I'm not arguing about what you think a boycott is, I'm saying what a boycott does. There's a difference.

avantgarde wrote:^^^I'm not talking about how the company thinks people perceive it. I'm advocating influencing your own social circle by telling others that you are boycotting, the act of "boycotting" doesn't matter, but by saying you are, it alters peoples' perception of that company and they buy less from it.

boy·cott (boikt)
tr.v. boy·cott·ed, boy·cott·ing, boy·cotts:

To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion. See Synonyms at blackball.

Argumentum ad verecundiam. The definition of a word isn't an argument. YMDC is proof of that.

I'm not arguing about what you think a boycott is, I'm saying what a boycott does. There's a difference.

Naaaaah.

People are skeptics. I don't believe half the people on this board will follow through if something shiny catches their eye in the next three months. You're arguing that the perception of a boycott has an effect. It doesn't. GW are skeptics too. They know the intertubes were built for people to blow off steam. HBMCs purchase of a Fortress just gave them a fresh infusion of cash to weather his withholding of FW luvvin'. The post-purchase evil glares nonwithstanding, GW isn't going to react to internet claims of a boycott.

Now, if you can influence your friends to put their money elsewhere, that's awesome. But is it to their benefit? That's what makes the final decision.

Internal division over semantics is irrelevant.

You don't have to argue in this thread, simply demonstrate your protest by finding something else you want and buying that instead.

If you really want a GW item, find something second hand on ebay and buy that instead, that way you're just reimbursing someone for a purchase and your money doesn't go to GW.

Certainly seems like a great deal of overt and wasted douchebaggery on their part over IP that they no longer care about.

But then again, I had an incomplete Anvil of Doom boxed set which I admitted I had purchased from chaosorc (and not their holy and blessed online store), and they sent me a new one with basically no questions asked. And that bad boy's all metal.

As always, of two minds on this.

all the CONSIDERABLE $ i was going to spend on a FW Chaos Renegades army this year has instead gone to battlefoam and flames of War. Feth off GW.

Jive Professor wrote:Certainly seems like a great deal of overt and wasted douchebaggery on their part over IP that they no longer care about.

But then again, I had an incomplete Anvil of Doom boxed set which I admitted I had purchased from chaosorc (and not their holy and blessed online store), and they sent me a new one with basically no questions asked. And that bad boy's all metal.

As always, of two minds on this.

Due to the massive markup on price, they can do that, because the thing is actually so flaming cheap to make it's more cost effective to issue a new one no questions asked, than pay for some employee to process a return.

It's a bit of metal forced through a mold, once the initial price of design and casting was sorted, they are just raking in money.

So, now just spend it elsewhere.

Pull down the ivory tower.

carmachu wrote:

jabbakahut wrote:

Right, thats total dolalrs(er...pounds).

Units sold per do not match the same scale, in fact declined to 2007 last I checked.

Where did you you find that information? I tried looking for anything like you said. Any help would be appreciated. I've noticed a lot of people cite information here on Dakka without actually citing anything.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's not like going on hunger strike or setting yourself on fire as a protest.

What am I going to do with all this lighter fluid then? Can I set other people on fire? Does that count?

I wish I could help you guys, but since the last thing I bought from GW was the Broodlord when the last Tyranid codex was released I'm afraid GW won't notice any drop in my GW based spending.

Well, I was planning on getting myself a forgeworld inquisitor or Krieg commander for Xmas, but then I saw Gamezone's mournful knights and zombie hounds and well...

...I'm already doing my part.

I just put in a big order with Warstore, and I switched from buying lots of GW to buying Warlord Romans (to get my historicals gaming going), FOW, and some Avatars of War (for painting).

2010 is going to be my year without GW. I have enough stuff in the closet to paint for years (most of it ebayed and bartertowned). I'll spend this year buying from other companies and expanding the horizons

Fafnir wrote:Well, I was planning on getting myself a forgeworld inquisitor or Krieg commander for Xmas, but then I saw Gamezone's mournful knights and zombie hounds and well...

...I'm already doing my part.

Yeah, if anyone is thinking of spending on fantasy, take a look at

http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/index.php/language/en/XTCsid/fb2638db7ba680ee4c57fc24ea46771a
Those vampire knights, the goblin wolf riders, the empire venerable thaumaturge, the dark elf cavalry options... wow, they make the best of the best...

and for characters as well, some amazing sculpts here:
http://arena-deathmatch.com/
I swear that marauder is one of the best minis I've ever seen.

also check these unique looking figures out, Ulgren and Primus Death are begging to be used as chaos mage and champion!
http://www.enigmaminiatures.com/en/massive.html

If your considering a large monster as a present to yourself this Christmas, then hows about:
http://www.ultraforgeminiatures.com/
(unfortunately the greater demon of disease is no longer available...yep, due to GW and their threatening letters...)

Really? They got rid of the Plague Daemon thingy because of GW? Wow...

Some of those Enigma figures are really nice.

I've often wondered why it is that GW feels it's IP should be so viciously "defended",yet apparently have no qaulms about freely (obviously) "borrowing" others IP ( H.R.Geiger,Orion pictures,Tyranids and Necrons) to incorparate in to 40K.

agnosto wrote:
I would love to see some of these organizations stand up to GW, if for no other reason than it would cost them between $1-10million and years to prosecute. If what some people are saying is true (and I highly doubt that GW owns outright rights to Judge Dredd for one), then they would be able to fight it and even win; winning would possibly mean that GW would have to pay the winner's legal costs on top of their own. 10 of such lost lawsuits would mean they could kiss their bottom line gone. They don't have the capital to fight endless lawsuits (IRAA they are not).

If it would cost GW $1-10 million in legal fees I imagine that the company on the other side of the courtroom would have similar fees, and given GWs size and market share the smaller company would be harder pressed for cash than they would be.

agnosto wrote:
We all know that bullying works in the short term but it will eventually come back around and cost more in the long run. Seriously, after all the publicity, legal battles, and many victories; the music industry is not any richer for it and the downloading of music is even more prevalent than it was before it all started.

Some guy with middling greenstuff skills and a garage set-up could alter some GW figs just enough to cause reasonable doubt that it ever was a GW fig and he could sell thousands of homebrew figs with a different label. I fail to see how that's any different than their ex-employees going to other companies and sculpting the same type of figs. We all know people are going to buy these cheaper, better looking figs and add them to their 40k or fantasy army but GW can't prove any misfeasance so they just chew their cud and take it like the cows they are.

Anywho, we can all sit here and postulate but nothing's going to change until something tips everything over an edge (or not).

You can't really compare this to the music industry. It's much, much harder to download a plastic figure than a datafile besides, a "guy in a garage" would probably not be able to reproduce the figures for less than what GW sells their figures for, unless it was some sort of chineese endavor with kids working for pennies - and then who are the really bad guys?


I still don't understand what the big fuss is all about. Sure, the prices go up. But would someone be so kind as to mention one product that haven't (hasn't?) increased in price over the last 15 years? And sure they make people on BGG take down their scans of all characters from BB and other clear IP infringements, but most off that stuff was either a) a clear infringement on their copyright or 3) something you could easily recreate if you wanted to. And wait a couple of months and I'm sure most of the stuff will have resurfaced anyway...

So basically: stay calm. If you can't - stop supporting GW (without being all dramatic about it) and see if the calmness returns. If not, seek out a doctor, it might be caused by a medical condition, not GW.

Cheers

Gorlak

Librarium online got a a C&D also http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2009/11/27/31717#comments

Similar logo? Rofl someones drinking something really weird at GW's...

Depressing.

I think it would be HILARIOUS if all the people GW are making a fishing expedition with actually did say" Ok buster! Lets see what you've got!" because I would bet my last nickel that if everyone went through litigation with GW, GW would bankrupt themselves in legal bills.

Seriously, they may be fairly heavy weight s in the industry, but they could not support the combined legal fees required to take on everyone at once.

I would love to see this backfire on them.

I don't understand why you'd need millions to defend a case such as Librarian Online. The eagles look nothing alike and it's dead easy to produce a large volume of historical material that shows where they come from. GW can knock themselves out with legal expenses, no amount of money will overcome that level of common sense.

They have become a vile company of late. I can't see how the apologists can come out saying they it's ok for them to protect their IP. This is just taking the piss. Librarian's eagle is nothing like their own. They seem to think they have rights over the whole hobby and can lean on everyone doing something vaguely similar to themselves.

BrassScorpion wrote:Slapping fans has become a fine art this year. As you may know, GW US was very short-handed this year after slashing many staff positions at HQ and in retails shops, so they asked many of their most devoted customers who frequent the HQ store to build and paint models in support of Games Day 2009 earlier this year with the promise of getting to keep the models we built and painted after the Games Day season was over. I even provided free publicity for the Games Day "Big Game" with those models on BoLS where thousands of people would see it ahead of the event. If I told you how those of us who asked about those models after Games Day season was over were treated you wouldn't even believe me and no, we still don't have the models that were promised to us or anything in the way of an apology or other compensation. :( A couple of us have spoken to one decent fellow we know at HQ who's trying to resolve the problem for us, but it should never have come to this situation in the first place, that's no way to treat some of your best customers, especially those that helped you out in a pinch. If they expect anyone to help them in the future with a project like that they need to not mistreat and disrespect the people who already helped them earlier this year.

Well Brass, if you really wanted to get them you all need to get together and get a lawyer. You then need to present GW with a labor lawsuit. All of you basically worked for GW and received no compensation, which is illegal.

Hellfury wrote:I think it would be HILARIOUS if all the people GW are making a fishing expedition with actually did say" Ok buster! Lets see what you've got!" because I would bet my last nickel that if everyone went through litigation with GW, GW would bankrupt themselves in legal bills.

Seriously, they may be fairly heavy weight s in the industry, but they could not support the combined legal fees required to take on everyone at once.

I would love to see this backfire on them.

Ha, like a fan class action suit for harassment? Damn, I should have gone pre-law.

Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't understand why you'd need millions to defend a case such as Librarian Online. The eagles look nothing alike and it's dead easy to produce a large volume of historical material that shows where they come from. GW can knock themselves out with legal expenses, no amount of money will overcome that level of common sense.

They have become a vile company of late. I can't see how the apologists can come out saying they it's ok for them to protect their IP. This is just taking the piss. Librarian's eagle is nothing like their own. They seem to think they have rights over the whole hobby and can lean on everyone doing something vaguely similar to themselves.

Except that's exactly not what they're doing.

They're going after people who are using THEIR intellectual property without their consent.

How is that difficult to understand?

my bad

Kanluwen wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't understand why you'd need millions to defend a case such as Librarian Online. The eagles look nothing alike and it's dead easy to produce a large volume of historical material that shows where they come from. GW can knock themselves out with legal expenses, no amount of money will overcome that level of common sense.

They have become a vile company of late. I can't see how the apologists can come out saying they it's ok for them to protect their IP. This is just taking the piss. Librarian's eagle is nothing like their own. They seem to think they have rights over the whole hobby and can lean on everyone doing something vaguely similar to themselves.

Except that's exactly not what they're doing.

They're going after people who are using THEIR intellectual property without their consent.

How is that difficult to understand?

Once again,I have to ask why it is that GW viciously defends it's own IP,while feeling apparently justified in using others with in their model range?
Did GW and Geiger come to an agreement in the use of his IP for the use of Tyranid sculpts that are obviously inspired by his work?>
Did GW get permision from Orion pictures to use the likeness of Terminators,on wich Necrons appear to be based?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It's not like going on hunger strike or setting yourself on fire as a protest.

What am I going to do with all this lighter fluid then? Can I set other people on fire? Does that count?

Yes. Set them on fire. Set them all on fire, HBMC...

Don't mind me, just the voice in your head telling you to burn things.

I've often wondered why it is that GW feels it's IP should be so viciously "defended",yet apparently have no qaulms about freely (obviously) "borrowing" others IP ( H.R.Geiger,Orion pictures,Tyranids and Necrons) to incorparate in to 40K.

Yeah, same here. They will go after people like rabid dogs for so-called infringements, but they'll steal from everyone.

All I can gather is that they've deluded themselves into thinking that they actually came up with all this stuff themselves, and just kindly ignored the fact that the source material they stole from doesn't exist. "Dune, what's that? The only God Emperor is the Emperor of Man!", "No, I can't say I have ever heard of a film titled 'Alien'...now buy some Tyranids.", etc.

Anyway, as for Gamezone, I really like their models, looks like high quality stuff. The only downside is that they don't make a manticore model...I hate the GW one (mostly the rider but the beast himself has more than a few problems), that's one model I would kill to get an alternative for.