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I can see were he is coming from on the Space Elf heads, at this point in development it does look like you just made a GS mold and added a gem or two.

I will be interested to see the finished product.

Chapterhouse wrote:

Well keep in mind those are the very beginnings of the helms, they will have a ton of other stuff added to them. Does GW have the claim to a smooth mask with slanted eyes on it? I sure hope not or we are not the only company in trouble.

As I am also an artist, I look at it this way:

If you have to ask the question, "Is this really too close to the original style?" then I have already answered the question with a yes.

Lets go back to the Eldar helmet for a moment. There's a green on the right hand side that has an extra layer on the top of the helmet, breaking up the original pattern. Now, if you make that helmet as a whole, then I could see there being issues. However, if you made the cap to put ON the helmet (and the cap had some cool designs on it, or a tassel at the end, etc), then you move back to the IDEA of Eldar and are safe again.

Just something to think about.

I just agree with moopy, on the line that.. you are making things that are looking like the exact thing..

Yeah..

Moopy wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:Well keep in mind those are the very beginnings of the helms, they will have a ton of other stuff added to them. Does GW have the claim to a smooth mask with slanted eyes on it? I sure hope not or we are not the only company in trouble.

As I am also an artist, I look at it this way:

If you have to ask the question, "Is this really too close to the original style?" then I have already answered the question with a yes...

The hole in this logic is that it ignores that GW has created an atmosphere where artists believe they have to question what they're doing at all. GW has fostered an atmosphere of fear, where good people cannot express themselves in an artistic way and benefit from that effort.

GW sends c&d letters to everyone remotely mentioning their IP; those companies fold under the pressure and few have followed through with their right to defend their position. Chapterhouse has been in business for over a year, has told GW that Chapterhouse is working with in its rights and has legal representation. GW hasn't taken legal action. If GW believed they could go forward they would. They don't, because they believe they'd lose and others would realize how paper thin GW's legal threats actually are.

aka_mythos wrote: If GW believed they could go forward they would. They don't, because they believe they'd lose and others would realize how paper thin GW's legal threats actually are.

For what it's worth, the fact that GW haven't doesn't mean that they won't.

The eBay seller 'mac-ace' who was busted a couple of years ago for selling counterfeit minis was going for well over a year before GW actually took (visible) legal action.

I believe Enigma (the original one, not the current Enigma Miniatures, who are completely different) and Daemonblade were also both trading for well over a year before getting stomped on.


Not saying that they will go after Chapterhouse, or getting into whether they would have a case if they did (I've given my (non-Legal-professional) opinion on Chapterhouse's work in the past, and see no need to keep dredging up the same arguments every time they're discussed)... but it's fairly common for large companies' legal departments to take a while to build up steam, if only to allow their potential target to put their neck that much more securely through the noose...

So, lets make some eldar.

aka_mythos wrote:
The hole in this logic is that it ignores that GW has created an atmosphere where artists believe they have to question what they're doing at all. GW has fostered an atmosphere of fear, where good people cannot express themselves in an artistic way and benefit from that effort.

The example I use is for anything that I want to do when I use another artist as a source. Whether I'd like to use a Renoir as inspiration for a drawing, or sculpt an ork head, it's the same question.

You know that there are limitations if you do work with this subject matter, and that's part of the challenge. The wrong answer is to chafe at them and say, "I should be able to do what I want, for I am the artist!" because that's not going to get you anywhere, so it's a waste of time. Since you ARE the artist, you need to find a solution to the problem you have in front of you and think differently. That's what artists do- think differently.

Case in point, I've gone back to college and I'm taking Game Design as my major. One of my classes makes us create a simple computer game. I'm not a programmer, and I could do a much better job working with an existing game engine such as Unreal. However you can't use any existing IP (such as game engines) to make your work, period. If you complained, the teachers just shrug and say, "Get over it." So, I had to make the best game that I could with the skill sets that I have and the tools I was ALLOWED to have.

That's what we have here- limitations force an artist to be creative, and think in different ways. As stated before, I think Chapterhouse did an extremely good job about being creative with the Salamander rhino armor. That is the correct solution to the problem.

-Edited by Moderator. Let's keep it civil-sorry my bad,

just from looking at the front page you are commiting IP infringment, there are so many miniture companies that have createn their own unique (although within the standard fantasy, science fantasy or science fiction setting) that make fantastic minitures and fluff, all your company is doing is making money of other peoples ideas by producing inferior products.

i in no way condone the closing of fan sites or the removal of house rules, as these are basically are free advertising for games workshop and help to GW fan community.




one thing i have never understood is why GW have been able to trademark 'space marine' when the term was first coined in the 1930's by the guy who wrote starship troopers (as well as other classics) way before GW ever existed

BluntmanDC wrote:one thing i have never understood is why GW have been able to trademark 'space marine' when the term was first coined in the 1930's by the guy who wrote starship troopers (as well as other classics) way before GW ever existed

They can do so because the trademark applies to GW's specific Space Marine imagery.

The Trademark doesn't stop other companies from using the name 'Space Marine'... it simply stops them from using the name 'Space Marine in relation to something that looks like GW's Space Marines. At least that's how I understand the whole Trademark thing to work.



That, and the fact that someone else came up with something previously doesn't stop you from trademarking your own version of it if they neglected to do so with theirs... Although doing so can lead to all sorts of interesting legal wrangling.

cheers insaniak, that does make sense

From an Engineering standpoint, Chapterhouse can create things that use the GW-standard "interfaces" - ball-socket joints / necks, torso dimensions, shoulderpad dimensions, etc. These are intrinsic physical interface elements that are NEVER Copyrightable.

*What* Chapterhouse sculpts simply has to avoid GW design / style copyright (examples as registered in the US, per previous thread).

The discussion of how much / to what extent art can be similar without infringing, I cannot say.

Chapterhouse needs to start branching out into other markets. The writing on the wall is there, WE all can read it.

Personally, after the past month on Dakka, I am really beginning to reconsider my 15 or so year commitments to playing thier game and am debating lightening my life of GW.
Obviously they do not want players anymore. They would rather get thier money by downsizing and hasseling fans, smaller companies, and generally anyone they think they can get a easy doller out of. Is it just me, or do others feel like they are being played for marks over something that is supposed to be a hobby?

Chapterhouse should start doing what others are doing and looking to expand the Superhero miniatures, Wild Weird West/ World War Genere, or other countless other alternatives.

The fact that we are STILL having this conversation would put me into looking to other areas, irregardless of lawyers, and outside distractions.

Models, alternative victorian horror, Sci Fi, Where is the miniatures game for Sanctuary, Dr Who, Primal, Torchwood, or some time traveling games out there?

We see countless Sci Fi games. How about something from the world of Spagetti Westers, gang fights like The Warriors, or Gangs of New York, or something along the lines of a 1/72 costumisable air combat game with dinosaurs or cyborg angels or something?

!@#$ the space marines if this is where we are being driven to.

Hell, even some coustomisable survivors for miniatures zombie games would be a fresh choice that hasn't been touched much, seeing the popularity of Zombieland, Upcoming WWZ, or the other glut of zombie apocalypse things going on out there.

The ideas are out there, why just worry about GW type stuff or pigeon yourself into having to match wits with the witless?

The C and D thing is old news now. We get the picture, and on the other leg, GW has got themselves to blame. I think I can comfortably say that I for one am getting tired of the subject, and I would expect others are as well.

These corporate lackeys have people going at each other when THEY are the one that has pretty much snubbed the nose to spite thier face, so I say LET THEM.

Alternative gaming is an oyster with so many pearls that they can wither and die and some other company is out there EASILY ready to pick up the slack by doing good minis and a good price for a good game or two.

Look at the market that is opening, are people really that brainwashed that they are going to keep taking the current SOP jagoff behavior?

All good points:

First off let me address the "you should make your own line of games" statement.

At this time I dont have the monetary or time resources necessary to put into a whole new system. Honestly, I would not know where to start. IMHO there are tons of games out there that are great, but how many of them actually get played? How many are doomed to never be sold due to being one of many?

Is it a possibility. Maybe, but not at this time. That is not to say if someone came up to me and offered a brilliant design and universe I could not be talked into helping it be a reality. Just not at this time.

"Eldar" and "Space Marine" are trademarked.

Creating a whole model and calling selling such model as "Eldar" or "Space Marine" can get you in trouble.

The only truly whole model we sell on our site does not even have the word "space marine" in its title (and description).

The same will hold true for the eldar conversion kit and to a degree the tyranid head (note Tyranid is not Trademarked, Genestealer is).

You can use TM terms as a description, but not as a item name.

In any case I was thinking of ideas for the Farseer/Warlock heads, and I think I have some cool ones besides what you have seen. If anyone wants to send me some concept art sketches I will see that you get a "thank you" if we use them.

Keep the ball rolling.

Nick

I think the confusion still exist because:

1) Chapter House is doing things within the "legal" boundary.

However.

2) Chapter House cannot deny the product they made are specifically for GW product as add ons.
In other words we ask a simple question , If GW doesnt exist all of a sudden , which company's product do these custom made Chapter House product be used on? Nothing.

So basically its legal , but we all "know" whats going on *wink wink.

LunaHound wrote:I think the confusion still exist because:

1) Chapter House is doing things within the "legal" boundary.

However.

2) Chapter House cannot deny the product they made are specifically for GW product as add ons.
In other words we ask a simple question , If GW doesnt exist all of a sudden , which company's product do these custom made Chapter House product be used on? Nothing.

So basically its legal , but we all "know" whats going on *wink wink.

As far as I know there is no law that says you cannot make custom (and most importantly new designed) parts for another companies products.

As long as you are not claiming they are official, endorsed, or using trademarks illegally you should be ok.

I cannot go out there and make and sell a Space Marine LandRaider model. I could go out there and make a "Dreadnought Drop Pod" though (notice the use of words not owned by GW in any way).

Yes i know :'o

Do tournaments give customers trouble that use your upgrades though? ( i have wanted to buy some star fox shoulder forever , but no chance to as my current marine shoulders are glued down already )

Good ideas on the warlock / farseer torso though.

Im liking the style / taste of your sculptors so far , and i rather see a new thunder wolf equivalent... thunder hound?

Chapterhouse wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I think the confusion still exist because:

1) Chapter House is doing things within the "legal" boundary.

However.

2) Chapter House cannot deny the product they made are specifically for GW product as add ons.
In other words we ask a simple question , If GW doesnt exist all of a sudden , which company's product do these custom made Chapter House product be used on? Nothing.

So basically its legal , but we all "know" whats going on *wink wink.

As far as I know there is no law that says you cannot make custom (and most importantly new designed) parts for another companies products.

As long as you are not claiming they are official, endorsed, or using trademarks illegally you should be ok.

I cannot go out there and make and sell a Space Marine LandRaider model. I could go out there and make a "Dreadnought Drop Pod" though (notice the use of words not owned by GW in any way).

I wouldn't go so far as to say that you could do the Dreadnought Drop Pod, at least not if you were that overt about it.

Mechanized Combat Cybernetic Warmachine Orbital Delivery System.
MCCWODS.

Or something catchy. MACWODS, maybe?

I would hate to delve into something that GW already makes (or will in the near future).

I hear Forge World will have a thunderwolf soon.

If I think FWs one is too damn expensive for the casual gamer, and we can a cy-wolf better and cheaper then it will happen

I have never ran into a tournament or customer who said they couldnt use our bits.

#1 Most of our pieces are so small or such a small percentage of the model it wouldnt matter.

#2 We arent that well known, or our bits are not.

#3 Pfft, just white-lie and say you made them yourself, I wont cry as long as you are not reproducing said bits for sale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FWIW, I have popped the Shoulder pads off my model with little damage, edge clippers work well on the plastic ones and worst case, you just have to re-glue the arms.

Kanluwen:

Ah, but I could sell a product we designed as a Dreadnought Drop Pod. GW has no claim to that title or words. That or Dreadnought Class Drop Pod, or Heavy Drop Pod - Dreadnought Class, etc etc etc

Chapterhouse wrote:I would hate to delve into something that GW already makes (or will in the near future).

I hear Forge World will have a thunderwolf soon.

If I think FWs one is too damn expensive for the casual gamer, and we can a cy-wolf better and cheaper then it will happen

I have never ran into a tournament or customer who said they couldnt use our bits.

#1 Most of our pieces are so small or such a small percentage of the model it wouldnt matter.

#2 We arent that well known, or our bits are not.

#3 Pfft, just white-lie and say you made them yourself, I wont cry as long as you are not reproducing said bits for sale.

Woot! brain storm!
Lets make a clockwork hound. Techno goth / steam punk style. Even if GW ever come up with something , your idea is still far original anyways!
Not to mention very cool.

Also , what GW players need alot are lower torsos for mounts.
If you can sculpt some IG legs , Eldar legs , power armor legs , they 'll sell LOTS

Chapterhouse wrote:I would hate to delve into something that GW already makes (or will in the near future).

I hear Forge World will have a thunderwolf soon.

If I think FWs one is too damn expensive for the casual gamer, and we can a cy-wolf better and cheaper then it will happen

I have never ran into a tournament or customer who said they couldnt use our bits.

#1 Most of our pieces are so small or such a small percentage of the model it wouldnt matter.

#2 We arent that well known, or our bits are not.

#3 Pfft, just white-lie and say you made them yourself, I wont cry as long as you are not reproducing said bits for sale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FWIW, I have popped the Shoulder pads off my model with little damage, edge clippers work well on the plastic ones and worst case, you just have to re-glue the arms.

Kanluwen:

Ah, but I could sell a product we designed as a Dreadnought Drop Pod. GW has no claim to that title or words. That or Dreadnought Class Drop Pod, or Heavy Drop Pod - Dreadnought Class, etc etc etc

See, I thought they had Dreadnought claimed in the fashion of a large, cybernetic construct that could be dropped from orbit or at least the specific design of the pod itself when in use.

But eh.
I still think the other name sounds better

CH, you should make one and call it the Cy-bot Falling Husk.

Nope, one of the things I do before listing a product is check the Trademarks registered in the US. Dreadnought is a free one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Who would ever google search Cy-bot Falling Husk though (or click on it on our website).

Huh. Cool.

I'm calling dibbs on it now. For my mecha wolfmonkeypuncher.

I shall call him...Dreadsies!

For those of you looking for another analogy, consider how Mozilla Firefox (3rd party software which pays ZERO royalty to Microsoft) runs on Windows. Firefox uses known Windows interfaces (which are not copyrightable), but incorporates ZERO MS IP.

Piggybacking on other IP can be done, but it needs to be done carefully.

JohnHwangDD wrote:For those of you looking for another analogy, consider how Mozilla Firefox (3rd party software which pays ZERO royalty to Microsoft) runs on Windows. Firefox uses known Windows interfaces (which are not copyrightable), but incorporates ZERO MS IP.

Piggybacking on other IP can be done, but it needs to be done carefully.

See, that's always where my confusion has come into play. But still.

Dibbs on Dreadsies the Mecha Wolfmonkeypuncher.

Go for it We would even set up casting for you if you sculpt it.

...
Now I have to practice sculpting.

Hate you, CH

Speaking of custom things:

Have you considered doing decals to order?

GW can sod off. They are masters at just skirting IP infringement. Wonder if Geiger would look at their Tyranid line, or the RH Heinlen estate look at their use of power armored troops or the Tolkein estate look at their Elves/Eldar, Orks/Orc etc.

Given that they expanded their original New Line movie-based contract out to cover miniatures based on the books, I think it's safe to assume that the Tolkein Estate doesn't have a problem with GW's Warhammer Fantasy range...

The point being that GW isnt into creating "original"material.