Scouts with helmets, good? bad? anti-fluff?

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**hcordes**

Lloldrin wrote:
hcordes wrote:in regards to using imperial equipment on space marines even if they are scouts..... i don't think even a marine halfway to becoming a full battle brother would sully himself on sub standard equipment.

Well, scouts already use carapace armor which is the same one that Imperial Guard Storm Troopers/Kasrkin use so them using the same helmet is hardly using "sub standard" equipment.

One problem with scouts using power armor pieces is that they don't have the black carapace. They simply can't interface with it. Yes, I saw that the theory is that the helmets they have are less advanced.

hcordes wrote:Also the idea behind them is not so much that it's really a full on "space marine power armor helmet" its got just enough goodies in it to keep a scout alive in a hostile atmosphere.

But to me this makes less sense than the scouts just using the available equipment made for the armor they wear.

I really like the idea with having helmets on the scouts. It's just that the Power Armor helmet looks too big for the model, like they should tip over.

hcordes wrote:i was reading some fluff this morning actually, and I read a little blurb about how the BOLTER is a holy weapon, and must be hand crafted and blessed, etc etc. So when fielding Scouts, they can swap there BOLT PISTOLS for a BOLTER for FREE. So with that being said.... the scouts get to use the holy bolters..... why can't they use a finely crafted SM helmet?? I mean if a scout Serg can have TERMINATOR HONORS......?

Actually scouts are fielded with both a boltgun and a bolt pistol. They may change it for a shotgun, ccw or sniperrifle. But let's look at those choices. The Sniper rifle have obvious advantages over the boltgun. The shotgun, while not as powerful as the bolter is a good choice for close range support. And seeing that scouts are to be trained in every aspect of combat they are sometimes issued ccw's.
About the Sergeant getting Terminator Honors (gone with 5th ed) The Sergeant is not a scout. It's a full battle brother that has been charged with training the scouts. He is equipped in the same manner as the scouts as it would be pointless to have a squad of scouts in stealthy carapace armor with one of them making noise in a power armor.

i see where you are coming, from though i have not read any fluff in regaurds to scout sarg's being full battle brothers without power armor. and I have yet to read the 5th ed codex... i am alittle out of the loop, in the codex i have (4th ed) you can replace the standard scout weapons with shotgun or bolter for free.

**Kanluwen**

Hcordes, it's not really anything new. Scout-Sergeants have pretty much always been drawn upon from veteran Brothers. Depending on the Chapter, a Scout-Sergeant can be anything from a bog standard Tactical Marine who shows an aptitude for stealth and insurgency to a fully vetted First Company Veteran who volunteers for the job.

Heck, if I remember right the Dark Angels used to have an actual Scout Sergeant as a character(Sergeant Naaman), which also meant that he was a member of the Deathwing and the Inner Circle to boot.

Basically: there's precedent for Scout Sergeants being some serious hardcore hombres. Nothing wrong with coopting that aspect into your own army.

**Emperors Faithful**

So THAT'S why my opponents Scout Serge is so badass. (Literally unkillable. The rest of the squad has been anihilated many times, but the sergeant has always lived on, tearing through possesed squads, wounding the avatar and finding other creative ways to kick ass.)

**hcordes**

this is alittle mind boggling really.... i never read anything like that. I know there are special characters that are scouts, my Sarg in fact is based on Naamar (sp?) the DA Sarg. But i never read anything even all DL books i've read that explained scout sargs that way. that is actually pretty cool,and does explain why you at used to be able to give them Termi honors.... i never quite got that one myself when i first read it. Well this thread went from conversion talk to SM history lessons, cool

**Cryonicleech**

The reasons scouts cannot wear helmets is established, as they do not have the "Black Caraparce" which gives the wearer the ability to use power armor. Although I'm not fond of the conversion, It isn't quite a big deal to me and in fact there are people at my store who do the same.

**Kanluwen**

Cryonicleech wrote:The reasons scouts cannot wear helmets is established, as they do not have the "Black Caraparce" which gives the wearer the ability to use power armor. Although I'm not fond of the conversion, It isn't quite a big deal to me and in fact there are people at my store who do the same.

Bwuh?
The "Black Carapace"has nothing to do with wearing helmets...
Black Carapace is an aberration that is used to help control Power Armour. It basically allows the Marines to react quicker by being plugged straight into the armor(from what I understand of it at least. It's all very handwavium. But it reminds me of the way of Project: MJOLNIR from Halo works. The powered armor functions as a 'second skin' for the Astartes, while for anyone else it has a slight lag time as the neural commands are interpreted).

The helmets, on the other hand, don't rely on any form of interface. They have displays, HUDs, etc...but as far as we've been told, no Black Carapace necessary.

**vodo40k**

Sisters of battle seem to be alright with no black caraparce.

**Kanluwen**

Different style of Power Armor.

Marine armor, fluffwise, functions on a far higher scale than the powered armor available to Inquisitors and the Sisters of Battle.

**usernamesareannoying**

vodo40k wrote:Sisters of battle seem to be alright with no black caraparce.

not true...take note of the stat line difference.

**Cryonicleech**

Hmm, never noticed that actually. That's a good point.

**Kveldulv**

Want about the Elysian Drop Troop heads with respirators?

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_ELYSIAN_DROP_TROOPS.html

You get 12 for £8.80 + shipping. I've never seen anyone using them, but I think they would suit the scout armour perfectly.

**usernamesareannoying**

or 20 pig iron heads for $6

i think that there are a few heads in the range that would look nice on scouts.
i like the way that yours look but there is something just a tad bit off about them that i cant seem to put my finger on.

**Kanluwen**

Why does everyone always point out Pig Iron's heads?

Big fething deal, they're cheap. They're not what everyone wants and they're also incredibly overused. And you'd STILL be having to pay for shipping from the UK.

**Emperors Faithful**

I'm with Kanluwen on this one. I don't reckon that the Black Carapace is necessarry to wear a helmet.

**hcordes**

usernamesareannoying wrote:or 20 pig iron heads for $6
i think that there are a few heads in the range that would look nice on scouts.
i like the way that yours look but there is something just a tad bit off about them that i cant seem to put my finger on.

well these figs were my FIRST attempt at totally removing a portion of a figure (a pewter one at that) and replacing it with something else entirely. the conversion required green stuff, to help even out where the old neck was, and then i had to remove part of the head piece on the bottom, the plastic SM heads have that rounded bottom that had to get taken off, other wise they looked like they had giraffe necks. So all in all, its a more complex conversion than i think people realize at first, at lest with the pewter figures, the all plastic scouts were much easier, i'll post pics soon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
let me amend here, when i say first attempt, its that i never before chopped up a pewter figure in such a manner with the intent to actually use it for something beyond bitz

**Grimm**

I like the idea, but i don't think they'd have normal marine helmets if they didn't have normal marine armour. A different type of helmet would look cool.

**vodo40k**

not true...take note of the stat line difference.

What I meant was its possible for someone to wear it without black caraparce, even though their reactions will be slowed when wearing it.

**usernamesareannoying**

@Kanluwen - i mentioned them because someone brought up the way overpriced FW heads. i also mentioned them because there is a lot of variety with them, theyre cheap and theyre excellent molds. as far as shipping goes there are several US retailers that sell these and even when bought from the UK they tend to use flat rate shipping prices which are pretty equal to what youd pay in the US. the only thing that suffers when ordering from the UK is usually delivery time. as far as overuse goes ill agree that you tend to see one style of their head a lot but so what, does that mean you shouldnt use them?

@hcordes - i didnt realize that they were the metals, youre right that i figured plastic scouts. nice work. you mentioned not knowing about scout sergeants being veterans... are you aware that space wolf scouts are actually fully fledged marines that would just rather scout than run around in power armour? normally marines start new recruits in scout units but the wolves save scouts for the battle hardened troopers.

@vodo40k - gotcha... youre absolutely right. like you said, sisters and inquisitors come to mind.

**Kanluwen**

Eurgh. Another Pig Iron fanboy.

I'm supposed to be impressed by that? Especially when the only difference between that and the Elysian kit is 8 heads and £4.80(discounting shipping)?

After the experience I had with Pig Iron, hah. They're lucky if I ever let them wipe my arse. I had gotten some of their Heavy Infantry back when they were new and...not impressed. They're another company making a quick buck off Guard players by selling underpriced "conversion kits", that woefully lack detail.

**usernamesareannoying**

Kanluwen wrote:Eurgh. Another Pig Iron fanboy.

I'm supposed to be impressed by that? Especially when the only difference between that and the Elysian kit is 8 heads and £4.80(discounting shipping)?

After the experience I had with Pig Iron, hah. They're lucky if I ever let them wipe my arse. I had gotten some of their Heavy Infantry back when they were new and...not impressed. They're another company making a quick buck off Guard players by selling underpriced "conversion kits", that woefully lack detail.

eurgh... another GW fanboy. to each their own i guess.

**Kanluwen**

Yeah. I'll keep my taste and actual nice looking models, you can keep your poorly detailed garbage.

Honestly, if you want gas mask heads. West Wind sells fantastic ones.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also:
lol@ GW fanboy comment.

Realize the thread and subforum you're posting in, sweetheart.

Pig Iron is garbage. It's fact, to me. I decided after having a crummy experience with all the miscast kits I had gotten from them to go and buy Forge World's Cadian Respirator kits. I've got some 140 infantry set up with those kits. Out of 140 heads, backpacks, and other equipment within those sets...one piece had a casting flaw. And that was a power sword scabbard.
Out of some 60 Pig Iron heads I worked with--only three were actually usable.

NO EXCUSE.

**usernamesareannoying**

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah. I'll keep my taste and actual nice looking models, you can keep your poorly detailed garbage.

Honestly, if you want gas mask heads. West Wind sells fantastic ones.

yep, have those as well so i guess im a westwind fanboy too although i dont care for their heads as much as i do the pig iron heads. the german gas mask heads are a little off to me.
i guess im a maxmini fanboy as well because they have some really great heads and bits although i dont think anything that they offer will look very nice on the OPs scouts.

so you keep yours and ill keep mine and thankfully well probably never have to look at one anothers figs...k?

oh and PS... i know exactly where i am, thanks. liking 40k doesnt mean you have to love every aspect of it.

**Emperors Faithful**

LOL at the people fighting over silly little helmets.

**hcordes**

I choose to use the SM helmets, because Scouts one:belong to the SM chapter. Two: i like the look of a SM helmet on the scout (except the beakies.. lets be honest), third: they were CHEAP, i didn't have to spend any extra money!! I have like a million SM heads in my bitz box!!

**usernamesareannoying**

Emperors Faithful wrote:LOL at the people fighting over silly little helmets.

theyre not silly little helmets dang it . they are finely crafted pieces of the emperors chosen wargear. or theyre silly little helmets, i get confused at times...

**Kanluwen**

usernamesareannoying wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:LOL at the people fighting over silly little helmets.
theyre not silly little helmets dang it . they are finely crafted pieces of the emperors chosen wargear. or theyre silly little helmets, i get confused at times...

Precisely! How dare you laugh at the Emperor's Chosen Wargear!

Also: sorry for being a jerk, user. Best friends foreverest nao? Just no Pig Iron mentioning between us

**hcordes**

when people say pig iron, it makes me think of a big ol'pig roasting on a spit for some reason.... thats not really the image i want when putting together some of the Empires finest.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also as promised, pics of new plastic converted scouts vrs. old pewter converted scouts. I am not sure how much the height diff can be blamed on the actual figures or my conversion ability. but the pewter fig is a little bit taller than the plastic Anyways, heres the pics taken this morning, hope you enjoy!

**usernamesareannoying**

Kanluwen wrote:
usernamesareannoying wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:LOL at the people fighting over silly little helmets.
theyre not silly little helmets dang it . they are finely crafted pieces of the emperors chosen wargear. or theyre silly little helmets, i get confused at times...

Precisely! How dare you laugh at the Emperor's Chosen Wargear!

Also: sorry for being a jerk, user. Best friends foreverest nao? Just no Pig Iron mentioning between us

pig what?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@hcordes - thanks for the pics. i think my sticking point is that they are just a smidge too big. i wonder how theyd look with the top "ridge" taken off and maybe the loss of the "ears".

still decent though hcordes...

**Lloldrin**

Just remember the most basic of rule.

It's your models, if you like it, go for it!

I could list reasons both for and against, but in the end it's your call and your models.

Some reasons for having the SM helmets would be that the helmets are a part of the same communication grid and the Marines can send images, hud information etc to each other. So for one they want the scouts to become comfortable using these, they also want the feed that the scouts can send though it. Another bonus is that they can use the helmets for complete silence. The other helmets are mostly a helmet with a built in respirator. The SM helmet is completely enclosed letting the scouts talk on the com net without having the speaker in the helmet on.

**Commisar Wolfie**

i gotta say just simply from the stand point of seeing so many of the lame scout heads over and over again that its kinda refreshing seeing something else. and as far as the black crapace that allowes them to fully intergrate with the power armour. as in enhanced muscles reflexs and such. the helmets provide comms, targeting, breating. plus even non Astartes can have power armour. inquisters for example