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Entire Middle East? No, just an example.
I just wanted to point out that extremism via poverty is a shallow argument and not something you usually engage in.

Well firstly, they were largely educated on the tax dollar of the countries they were educated in, and then returned to home countries with a per capita earning far, far less than the countries they planned to strike at.

The level of education within the upper echelons of an organization doesn't really speak to the socio economic factors that gave rise to the organization in the first place. Most recruits for muslim extremist groups are from strife ridden or poor areas with few prospects for future improvement. The advent of foreign educated extremists is an indication that the groups value the capability to blend in within a secular environment, and maintaining faith through trials in a foreign and infidel country marks one as a strong prospect as a martyr in a mission of importance.

Wow just wow...

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fifty wrote:"How dare you draw a cartoon implying Islam is violent! Now die for your crime!"

Actually the big issue was that you're not allowed to illustrate mohammed, it's a heretical insult.

Thing is, there are plenty of depictions of Mohammed, even by Muslims. Sure, some branches of Islam may not like depictions of him, but it was not the simple fact of him being shown in a picture that was the fuss, it was they way he was shown. Although, even having it your way, it still sounds pretty ridiculous;

"How dare you draw a picture of Mohammed! Now die for your crime!"

ShumaGorath wrote:

Entire Middle East? No, just an example.
I just wanted to point out that extremism via poverty is a shallow argument and not something you usually engage in.

Well firstly, they were largely educated on the tax dollar of the countries they were educated in, and then returned to home countries with a per capita earning far, far less than the countries they planned to strike at.

The level of education within the upper echelons of an organization doesn't really speak to the socio economic factors that gave rise to the organization in the first place. Most recruits for muslim extremist groups are from strife ridden or poor areas with few prospects for future improvement. The advent of foreign educated extremists is an indication that the groups value the capability to blend in within a secular environment, and maintaining faith through trials in a foreign and infidel country marks one as a strong prospect as a martyr in a mission of importance.

Then why do the other poverty wracked areas of the world not engage in the same type of behaviour?

Zip Napalm wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Entire Middle East? No, just an example.
I just wanted to point out that extremism via poverty is a shallow argument and not something you usually engage in.

Well firstly, they were largely educated on the tax dollar of the countries they were educated in, and then returned to home countries with a per capita earning far, far less than the countries they planned to strike at.

The level of education within the upper echelons of an organization doesn't really speak to the socio economic factors that gave rise to the organization in the first place. Most recruits for muslim extremist groups are from strife ridden or poor areas with few prospects for future improvement. The advent of foreign educated extremists is an indication that the groups value the capability to blend in within a secular environment, and maintaining faith through trials in a foreign and infidel country marks one as a strong prospect as a martyr in a mission of importance.

Then why do the other poverty wracked areas of the world not engage in the same type of behaviour?

Umm.. They do? Some rebels were just bombed in columbia (on new years eve while they were celebrating). Africa has seen intercene strife for a century, and several ongoing ethnic cleansing campaigns are being fought as I type this. Asia is hardly free from strife, thailand, malaysia, india (maoists, goddamnit), and dozens of other countries are having plenty of issues. You... Don't keep up on current events do you?

ShumaGorath wrote:

Zip Napalm wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Entire Middle East? No, just an example.
I just wanted to point out that extremism via poverty is a shallow argument and not something you usually engage in.

Well firstly, they were largely educated on the tax dollar of the countries they were educated in, and then returned to home countries with a per capita earning far, far less than the countries they planned to strike at.

The level of education within the upper echelons of an organization doesn't really speak to the socio economic factors that gave rise to the organization in the first place. Most recruits for muslim extremist groups are from strife ridden or poor areas with few prospects for future improvement. The advent of foreign educated extremists is an indication that the groups value the capability to blend in within a secular environment, and maintaining faith through trials in a foreign and infidel country marks one as a strong prospect as a martyr in a mission of importance.

Then why do the other poverty wracked areas of the world not engage in the same type of behaviour?

Umm.. They do? Some rebels were just bombed in columbia (on new years eve while they were celebrating). Africa has seen intercene strife for a century, and several ongoing ethnic cleansing campaigns are being fought as I type this. Asia is hardly free from strife, thailand, malaysia, india (maoists, goddamnit), and dozens of other countries are having plenty of issues. You... Don't keep up on current events do you?

Only the current ones.

By behaviour, I mean go someplace else in the world and kill people.

By behaviour, I mean go someplace else in the world and kill people.

Engage in international terrorism? Or go to another country and kill someone. The drug trade does the latter, but is not the former, and stems largely from countries with underdeveloped economies.

ShumaGorath wrote:

By behaviour, I mean go someplace else in the world and kill people.

Engage in international terrorism? Or go to another country and kill someone. The drug trade does the latter, but is not the former, and stems largely from countries with underdeveloped economies.

You right in that drug cartels kill people for economic reasons. What motivates a poor man in Somalia to travel to Europe to kill a man that draws cartoons.

I see this thread getting a lock before midnight tonight (that's 10 hours and 39 minutes away if you aren't in the central US time zone).

It went from discussing some dude being threatened over a comic to Shuma bashing on the Bible. Didn't see that one coming from miles away.

JEB_Stuart wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:you kind of bit yourself there with your own ignorance, a common misconception is that the koran says these things, three important words do not appear in the koran: 1. war, 2.holy, 3.infidels. these terrorist groups use the islamic faith as a front for their xenophobic hate, not just of the west but also of other muslim groups. the upper members of these organisations use easily moulded people to carry out their hate. the koran is a book of peace

The Koran does have several verses that command its followers to kill all disbelievers and idol worshipers. For example:

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you" - Surah 9:123

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." - Surah 9:5

Good examples, but still doesn't make my point wrong, the ones that are causing these problems are just hate mongers, that are a mix of xenophodic, sexist and nationalist (in the worst way), they are no different from white power movements or the IRA, they all use religion to hide their hate.

Fateweaver wrote:I see this thread getting a lock before midnight tonight (that's 10 hours and 39 minutes away if you aren't in the central US time zone).

It went from discussing some dude being threatened over a comic to Shuma bashing on the Bible. Didn't see that one coming from miles away.

...You live in a special world. Other than equating the books together, what exactly did I do to bash the bible?

You right in that drug cartels kill people for economic reasons. What motivates a poor man in Somalia to travel to Europe to kill a man that draws cartoons.

The same thing that causes Maoist rebels in india to kill 20 cops, or causes the Tamil Tigers continuously attempt secession for half a century, or causes nigerian witch doctors to attempt to slaughter and sell the limbs of Albinos. Strife, starvation, ecnomic hardship, and foreign influence cause people to find the strength to rebel, religion has always operated in a method that attracts those with little else, thus faith based doctrines + strife = violence. Its been a visible cycle for two thousand years, secularism flourishes during times of economic and social success, religious extremism (as well as organized crime and social strife) flourishes during times of economic and social downturn. Both are the effects of success and failure, not the causes.

I have asked the mod team to lock this thread. We need to band together against this sort of gak really.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have asked the mod team to lock this thread. We need to band together against this sort of gak really.

G

Go troll a different forum, when you manage to post something with more than two contentless sentences you'll get to start reporting threads.

You can't help yourself can you? Maybe it's like bipolar.

G

AGAIN, the OT Forum is, believe it or not, subject to all the same rules as the rest of Dakka Dakka.

Please remember this, or threads get locked, users get suspended, the sky rains blood, etc.

Thanks!

BluntmanDC wrote:

JEB_Stuart wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:you kind of bit yourself there with your own ignorance, a common misconception is that the koran says these things, three important words do not appear in the koran: 1. war, 2.holy, 3.infidels. these terrorist groups use the islamic faith as a front for their xenophobic hate, not just of the west but also of other muslim groups. the upper members of these organisations use easily moulded people to carry out their hate. the koran is a book of peace

The Koran does have several verses that command its followers to kill all disbelievers and idol worshipers. For example:

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you" - Surah 9:123

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." - Surah 9:5

Good examples, but still doesn't make my point wrong, the ones that are causing these problems are just hate mongers, that are a mix of xenophodic, sexist and nationalist (in the worst way), they are no different from white power movements or the IRA, they all use religion to hide their hate.

(Or the unionist paramilitary organisations?)

On topic, that's probably the risk you run when you take the piss out of people who are insane. Glad yer man didn't get hurt though.

I must've read a different Koran. The one I read had a part that said, "Respect other religions, like they respect yours". I can't quote it word for word, but this is what was there.

Let's not forget that the bible got translated and probably a lot of stuff changed/misinterpreted by scribes and monks, so it's further away from the original one than the Koran.

Still, whatever the book you read that dictates how you look at people, society, economy, and morals, the benefits of a catholic upbringing allow most of us to have a less extreme point of view regarding our beliefs.
I doubt anyone here would try to kill someone because they drew Jesus. Or made a joke about it. Or named a bear after it.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I see this thread getting a lock before midnight tonight (that's 10 hours and 39 minutes away if you aren't in the central US time zone).

It went from discussing some dude being threatened over a comic to Shuma bashing on the Bible. Didn't see that one coming from miles away.

...You live in a special world. Other than equating the books together, what exactly did I do to bash the bible?

You right in that drug cartels kill people for economic reasons. What motivates a poor man in Somalia to travel to Europe to kill a man that draws cartoons.

The same thing that causes Maoist rebels in india to kill 20 cops, or causes the Tamil Tigers continuously attempt secession for half a century, or causes nigerian witch doctors to attempt to slaughter and sell the limbs of Albinos. Strife, starvation, ecnomic hardship, and foreign influence cause people to find the strength to rebel, religion has always operated in a method that attracts those with little else, thus faith based doctrines + strife = violence. Its been a visible cycle for two thousand years, secularism flourishes during times of economic and social success, religious extremism (as well as organized crime and social strife) flourishes during times of economic and social downturn. Both are the effects of success and failure, not the causes.

You still don't address the motivation of the individual. What was a Somali in Demark attempting to rebel against?

I'll add that the secular violence of the 20th century has put the religeous violence of the past to shame.

generalgrog wrote: however you show a complete lack of understanding of what and why that violence took place.

What and why are irrelevant to a comment meant to elucidate the presence of violence in a text.

You're having a problem internalizing that comment because you have some sort of problem with violence as a whole. Your instinct to inviolate your faith is leading you to react harshly to something that was no more than a bare statement of fact.

Sigh, I'm a democrat christian, but even I know that the bible, like the koran and any other holy book can and will be used for evil. People don't give a good g-d damn what the verse says. Jesus says to give to the poor and give more than what you are asked even if some one takes from you. The popes of old used the bible to kill women who knew math, and "tame the savages". Imagine what would happen if a muslim went to rome and drew The virgin mary in a orgy then coming up with a lie to jesus's father, or the pope and a bunch of nuns getting it on, in the NY times or the paper of your choice.

"I'll add that the secular violence of the 20th century has put the religeous violence of the past to shame."

Learn history, please!"

What was a Somali in Demark attempting to rebel against?

The corruption of western cultural imperialism? He was clearly not of sound mind, though the man did have a million dollar bounty on his head, so it could be argued he was also motivated by profit.

I'll add that the secular violence of the 20th century has put the religeous violence of the past to shame.

It always does. Militaries are at their best when they are national and fairly secular in intent and founding. There have been a few examples of religious states weilding strong military power (the crusades for instance), but most examples of world class militaries were fairly secular (Alexander the great, the Nazis, the Hunns, the (early) Roman empire, the modern U.S. military, etc).

sexiest_hero wrote:Sigh, I'm a democrat christian, but even I know that the bible, like the koran and any other holy book can and will be used for evil. People don't give a good g-d damn what the verse says. Jesus says to give to the poor and give more than what you are asked even if some one takes from you. The popes of old used the bible to kill women who knew math, and "tame the savages". Imagine what would happen if a muslim went to rome and drew The virgin mary in a orgy then coming up with a lie to jesus's father, or the pope and a bunch of nuns getting it on, in the NY times or the paper of your choice.

"I'll add that the secular violence of the 20th century has put the religeous violence of the past to shame."

Learn history, please!"

Which part?
The Great War?
WWII?
Five Year plans the USSR in the 1920's and 30's?
1937 invasion of China?
Great Leap Forward?
Cultural Revolution?
Korean War?

Spare me your indignation. Does religion have a corner on the violence market?

JEB_Stuart wrote:The Koran does have several verses that command its followers to kill all disbelievers and idol worshipers. For example:

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you" - Surah 9:123

That's only a command to kill if you want it to be.

JEB_Stuart wrote:
"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." - Surah 9:5

Idolatry in Islam generally relates to those who direct their worship towards men, as opposed to God. People who worship God in accordance with another monotheistic tradition are not considered to be idolators.

(I should point out that as people have become less religious, the technology we use to massacre each other has gotten much better. The two are not actually that related to each other, but by happening at the same time it certainly makes the non-believers look more bloodthirsty because they were better equipped to carry out their killing. Of course, it's more complicated than that, but I'm sure you get my gist.)

ShumaGorath wrote:

What was a Somali in Demark attempting to rebel against?

The corruption of western cultural imperialism? He was clearly not of sound mind, though the man did have a million dollar bounty on his head, so it could be argued he was also motivated by profit.

Ideology, crazy or greed. Fair enough, but now your just guessing.
Maybe he was just an man beset by evil intent of his own making?

Zip Napalm wrote:
Which part?
The Great War?
WWII?
Five Year plans the USSR in the 1920's and 30's?
1937 invasion of China?
Great Leap Forward?
Cultural Revolution?
Korean War?

Spare me your indignation. Does religion have a corner on the violence market?

This is the part where I come in and point out that religion turns on the presence of metaphysical beliefs; where 'metaphysical' is a philosophical concept, and not something most of you have paid any attention to.

The 5 year plans of the USSR? Religious.
The Great Leap Forward? Religious.
Cultural Revolution? Religious.

The 5 year plans of the USSR? Religious.

Wasn't the five year plan just the rapid industrialization of the country and redistribution of farm labor? It worked didn't it?

dogma wrote:

Zip Napalm wrote:
Which part?
The Great War?
WWII?
Five Year plans the USSR in the 1920's and 30's?
1937 invasion of China?
Great Leap Forward?
Cultural Revolution?
Korean War?

Spare me your indignation. Does religion have a corner on the violence market?

This is the part where I come in and point out that religion turns on the presence of metaphysical beliefs; where 'metaphysical' is a philosophical concept, and not something most of you have paid any attention to.

The 5 year plans of the USSR? Religious.
The Great Leap Forward? Religious.
Cultural Revolution? Religious.

Are you speaking of a broad definition of faith?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

The 5 year plans of the USSR? Religious.

Wasn't the five year plan just the rapid industrialization of the country and redistribution of farm labor? It worked didn't it?

Sure. If you survived the famine. The dead didn't notice.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Wasn't the five year plan just the rapid industrialization of the country and redistribution of farm labor? It worked didn't it?

Yeah, but it was predicated on a metaphysical belief which allowed for the establishment of certainty in the future. At least that's what the rhetoric surrounding it leads to.

Sure. If you survived the famine. The dead didn't notice.

I don't think the five year plan was all that caring. It was meant to force advancement, not encourage.

Yeah, but it was predicated on a metaphysical belief which allowed for the establishment of certainty in the future. At least that's what the rhetoric surrounding it leads to.

Thats an incredibly broad definition of religious.