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Fateweaver wrote:YOUR reality where we can all hold hands, sing Kumbaya because 9/11 wasn't plotted by people who hate the West and that Obamacare will save the country and allow more people to get healthcare (the last one might be true but at increased expense to those of us not sucking off the system).

You already said that you suck off the system (unemployment). That said, apology is an element of strategy. Fein.

Fateweaver wrote:
The real reality where people who hate the West want to destroy us, from the inside and the outside; where Obamacare will feth this country worst than the private insurers have (and apparently quite a few Dems are finally seeing this as well) and where our administration feels we owe it to China and other parts of the world and so we must show them fealty and apologize and kiss their asses.

I live in reality #2.

So you live in your own mind, Cute.

Fateweaver wrote:The real reality where people who hate the West want to destroy us...

...

...where Obamacare will feth this country worst than the private insurers have...

Wat?

UI is not sucking off the system. You actually have to have worked for X amount of time for a certain employer to get it and whether I get it or not all employers that are of a certain size pay so much a year for Unemployment insurance to cover such things as lay offs.

Welfare is sucking off the system. You just have to fill out some paperwork, maybe have a few kids as that helps you get more and enjoy taking money from tax payers.

Only positive thing about Obama is his UI extensions. But one good thing does not make up for his failure with everything else.

You keep looking at the world through rose colored glasses dogma. It's hard to tell something is gak when it's rose red.

You don't think the Islamic extremists are trying to destroy the West? Okay, that's your illusion. Don't think Obamacare will feth this country? Then why is it that some of the Dems were even against it? They must know something that you don't. Obama has been kissing other countries asses (First the Queen and then the Emperor of Japan) and generally apologizing to the rest of the world for Bush's actions.

So yeah. You keep living in your rose colored world Dogma. Your world is the world in the Matrix, the real world is the one you don't see past the MSM and liberal agenda, the world that actually IS.

Now, back to my beer and Hank Jr.

Just also found out gun show this weekend. I think I'll buy an AK-47 or maybe I'll get lucky and snag a BAR.

Orlanth wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Woah, a bit angry there, mate?

Meanwhile, Australia luaghs.

While we are on the subject of (hopefully) light hearted digs:

Australia, the only country to lose a war against .... rabbits.

Bunnies kicked your arses matey.

Ah, feth. You got me there, mate. Why do you think everyone (even the kids) drink over here? We have to cope with the damn critters.

@Albatross: I hope you realise I was only joking about the whole Aus vs UK thing. I would never intentionally ridicule a dead British Soldier or any soldier for that matter.

warpcrafter wrote:You notice that they never try that crap over here. They would be shot down in the street like dogs. Then set on fire, then their ashes would be sent back to the desert, postage due.

You so sure? You don't seem to of done anything about those rabble rousing religious nutters who stand near the funerals of soldiers screaming all that vile stuff. Go over and sort them out first and the I'd believe you.

Fateweaver wrote:
Welfare is sucking off the system. You just have to fill out some paperwork, maybe have a few kids as that helps you get more and enjoy taking money from tax payers.

You're a bit cynical there, mate. I don't know exactly how much people in the US get for Welfare so I can't really talk.

Only positive thing about Obama is his UI extensions. But one good thing does not make up for his failure with everything else.

As compared to...every other American President?

You don't think the Islamic extremists are trying to destroy the West? Okay, that's your illusion. Don't think Obamacare will feth this country? Then why is it that some of the Dems were even against it? Since when are poloticians not divided in some for or another? They must know something that you don't. Obama has been kissing other countries asses (First the Queen and then the Emperor of Japan) and generally apologizing to the rest of the world for Bush's actions. If Bush had been the Prime Minister of Australia, I would be apologising as well.

So yeah. You keep living in your rose colored world Dogma. Your world is the world in the Matrix, the real world is the one you don't see past the MSM and liberal agenda, the world that actually IS. Good to see that dakka has it's fair share of conspiracy nuts. thumbsup:

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Wolfstan wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:You notice that they never try that crap over here. They would be shot down in the street like dogs. Then set on fire, then their ashes would be sent back to the desert, postage due.

You so sure? You don't seem to of done anything about those rabble rousing religious nutters who stand near the funerals of soldiers screaming all that vile stuff. Go over and sort them out first and the I'd believe you.

Good point, Wolfstan. But then again, the people shouting that stuff are white.

Wolfstan wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:You notice that they never try that crap over here. They would be shot down in the street like dogs. Then set on fire, then their ashes would be sent back to the desert, postage due.

You so sure? You don't seem to of done anything about those rabble rousing religious nutters who stand near the funerals of soldiers screaming all that vile stuff. Go over and sort them out first and the I'd believe you.

In regards to this and the US,

*cough*westboro church*cough*
*cough*Jesus Camp*cough*

I'll just leave that there...

Fateweaver wrote:YOUR reality where we can all hold hands, sing Kumbaya because 9/11 wasn't plotted by people who hate the West

Who are these people?

Fateweaver wrote:....but at increased expense to those of us not sucking off the system).

I paid for you to eat.

Fateweaver wrote:
I live in reality #2.

Right. Cute. Its like a kitty.

@The happy reaper: Could you leave us some links or something? I'm not sure I know what you're on about.

Just a sample of westboro,

and, Jesus camp is a documentary on the title camp.
(wiki Jesus camp, see it on youtube)

At the camp, Fischer stresses the need for children to purify themselves in order to be part of the "army of God." She strongly believes that children need to be in the forefront of turning America toward conservative Christian values. She also feels that Christians need to focus on training kids since "the enemy" (Islam) is focused on training theirs. She refers to the Earth as "a sick old world" and wishes for Jesus' return, aka the Second Coming. In the preparation meetings before the camp begins, she asks other staff members how they should prepare for "demonic forces" that may be stirred up during camp services.

Fischer is shown preaching a sermon where she mentions the Harry Potter character and claims that had he existed in biblical times, he "would have been put to death". Fischer admonishes the children—many of whom are in tears—to "clean up your act" and not be hypocritical in their actions. As several tearful children gather around her, she pours water on their hands to be "washed in the water of [God's] word."

During a rainy night at the camp, the boys tell each other ghost stories. A counselor admonishes the boys that ghost stories "do not honor God".

Various activities are held during the camp that revolve around conservative political values, ranging from the support of George W. Bush to anti-abortion sentiments. These activities include more than just adult members expressing their opinions to the children in the camp; these kids take an active part in them and fervently uphold these conservative political ideals. While the main focus of this movie is religion, the political undertones can help viewers to understand the context of the camp as a mobilization unit in terms of how they can or want to change society.

In one scene shot at Christ Triumphant Church, Lou Engle preaches a message urging children to join the fight to end abortion in America. Engle is a founder of the Justice House of Prayer and a leader of Harvest International Ministries, the religious organization with which both the church and Fischer's ministry are affiliated—an affiliation not advertised in the film. He prays for Bush to have the strength to appoint "righteous judges" who will overturn Roe v. Wade. By the end of the sermon, the children are chanting, "Righteous judges! Righteous judges!" In another scene, a woman brings a life-sized cutout of Bush to the front of the church, and has the children stretch their hands toward him in prayer. This is a derivative of laying hands, a common practice in charismatic Christian circles.

There is also a scene at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, where Levi and his family go on vacation to hear its later-disgraced pastor, Ted Haggard. Levi highly admires Haggard, and is thrilled to meet him. He informs Haggard that he too wants to be a pastor and has already preached sermons. Afterward, Levi, Rachael, Tory, their families and several other children take part in a Justice House of Prayer rally held by Engle in front of the U.S. Supreme Court.

Additionally, there is a debate between Fischer and Mike Papantonio, an attorney and a radio talk-show host for Air America Radio's Ring of Fire. Papantonio questions Fischer's motives for focusing her ministry efforts on children. Fischer explains that she does not believe that people have the freedom to choose their belief system once they pass childhood, and that it is important that they be immersed in evangelical Christian values from a young age.

Basically the epitome of brainwashing and stuffing views down childrens throats. Everything I and all others should stand against, and the dark side of organised religion. Just to show that It isnt only Muslim extremists we need to worry about. (though, it did close, after the documentary about it.)

@Albatross: I hope you realise I was only joking about the whole Aus vs UK thing. I would never intentionally ridicule a dead British Soldier or any soldier for that matter.

No sweat mate. I get touchy when people insult (percieved or otherwise) our armed forces - due in no small part to coming from a 'military' family, having mates who have served - and one who is getting ready to go to Afghanistan. I have no problems (well...) with people who want to protest our involvement in the middle east - but effectively spitting on the graves of dead fathers, sons and brothers (and in some cases, sisters) is the most crass and puerile way to go about it imaginable. It has nothing to do with 'manly sentiment'. If my best mate is killed over there, I can barely imagine how I would feel - grieving families should not be subjected to this grotesque and opportunistic insult. Protest outside the House of Commons, not on the streets of Wooton Bassett.

I never suggested that the people responsible for this should be 'dragged trough the streets' or that it would cause the downfall of British society - merely that the British sense of decency is completely at odds with this sort of behaviour, and that it would sicken me if, as a nation, we had allowed this protest to go ahead at that particular location.

Wow. So fundamental Islamic people brainwash their kids, so fundamental Christians should brainwash theirs? Epic logic there.

Wolfstan wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:You notice that they never try that crap over here. They would be shot down in the street like dogs. Then set on fire, then their ashes would be sent back to the desert, postage due.

You so sure? You don't seem to of done anything about those rabble rousing religious nutters who stand near the funerals of soldiers screaming all that vile stuff. Go over and sort them out first and the I'd believe you.

actually there has been a huge responce, the Patriot Guard Riders an organisation of non-violent bikers/vets/people that don't like these holes act as a buffer between these nutters and the funeral if the family of the soldier wishes them to, they block the placards from view an sing the national anthem to black out their hate speech.

@fateweaver= gitmo is being closed because the military has been torturing people, which is illegal. You talk about obama 'sucking up' the prominent figures in the world, when you are a leader of a country you don't go round acting like a , the US is powerful, but it still needs allies, your lack of understanding of world polotics and simple manners in polite society is astounding. you think national health care is a bad idea, half of the US is third world country, things have to change, and you can bring up all the things republican polititians like to say, but they are idiots or liars, national health care works.

GENTLEMEN GET THE THREAD BACK ON TOPIC AND BE WARNED ATACKS AGAINST OTHER POSTERS, INCLUDING DISCUSSION OF THE MEDICAL OR MENTAL STATES ARE NOT PERMITTED ON DAKKA.

Apologies to Frazzled if I'm being a git, but this entire thread and a lot of responses to it are hilarious and keeping me entertained on this chilly morning.

Fellow Commonwealth inhabitants, I am proud of your good humour and relations.

People shouting at and abusing each other across the Atlantic on the topic of extremely complex world politics on a *wargaming forum*, please take a deep breath, and go and read lots of books on the topics in question from a wide variety of perspectives and sources, then in a rational and open manner talk to lots of people. Then keep an open mind all the same, because we're all trapped in one body in one place with one perspective, by pure chance, and it's impossible to know everything or be entirely right.

My tuppence is that I'm glad my nation is free and democratic enough for this group to have the opportunity to do something this offensive, and even more glad they didn't go through with it, as the increase in hatecrimes as a result would be obscene.

It always strikes me in these situations - as with Science vs Religion - that a small group of extremists on either side act inappropriately, and as a result the extremists on the other side do the same, with each party blaming the innocent majority of their opposition, who end up doing all the suffering.

We live in a world of confused individuals, myself definitely included, and grouping and judging people according to our own blinkered perspective is ignorant and unbecoming of the only intelligent race as yet known in the universe.

And now I'm worried that I've made things worse...

Lets all be friends!

Oh my that was reasoned. You have no future in the OT, run while you can!

I knew that Physics and Philosophy degree would come in handy somewhere!

...Can I earn money from this?

No unless you take bribes. A reminder to all I can be bought, but not cheaply...

Philosopher for hire!

Will work for qualia. or Leman Russ models.

The problem I see is that the group in question, Islam4UK, have achieved what they set out to do. Raise awareness of their activities.

The leader of the group, who lives on state handouts of more than 25K per annum, stated that the reason he picked Wotton Bassett as the venue of the march was to raise maximum awareness for his groups cause, had the march been planned in an area where there are a high proportion of Muslims (Bradford or Birmingham) it would have been largely ignored.

It was only when the possibility of the group being outlawed cropped up that they finaly backed down, although I strongly doubt the march would ever have gone ahead/been allowed.

Islam4UK stated that they wished to bring attention to the amount of Muslims dying in Afghanistan, this is simply not true, they are a group with confirmed extremist links and the notion of marching through Wotton Bassett was for the purpose of causing the maximum amount of distress possible. However this does not excuse people to lash out at Muslims in general, this will merely add fuel to the fire and attract more impresionable young men to Islam4UK.

The UK government need to be more robust when it comes to dealing with extremist groups. Anyone, regardless of faith, who intends to organise an event which causes widespread distress and upset is a terrorist and should be prosecuted as such.

@ squilverine

I'm afraid allowing extremists to raise awareness for their cause is part of freedom in our country. It happened last year with that exceptionally blinkered and angry chap Nick Griffin, and what happened? Did Britain suddenly become a Fascist state? nope, just like when Walter Moseley tried it in the 30's, we mocked him silly:



Until such a time as Islam4UK is outlawed, they should have all the freedoms of everyone else. If the evidence is conclusive, and has been passed in a court of law, they should not.

If impressionable young men are being drawn to Islam4UK, then we should do more to give them a reason to stay away, not inflict unlawful censorship upon a group bound to play on any discrimination as more fuel to their fire. Impressionable people are pulled in lots of different directions, but we should give inform them fully, give them a reason to follow our perspective, and let them have the freedom of the choice. Because any government-imposed decision proscribing certain perspectives is just the start of a slippery slope.

I get the sense you want the group outlawed - and if they are proven to be Terrorists, then I agree wholeheartedly. But until such a time, we should give them all the rights they deserve as free UK citizens. The thing we're failing to do is counteract the effects of such groups as we disagree with in an open and free manner. The point is, even if we don't like what they've got to say, they've got to have the chance to say it, otherwise we lose the moral high ground.

Want to stop Islam4UK? Help moderate muslims defeat their rhetoric, and help them feel welcome on this tiny island. I'd say the best response to the march - if it had happened - would have been to join them on the march, outnumber them on the march, and wave placards in support of exactly what they claimed to be doing - honouring muslims whom have died in Afghanistan. Muslims in the British Armed Forces, the Afghan police, or the ANA, for instance, whom have fought alongside our troops for half a decade against the Taliban, with reckless bravery and no body armor. That would have left Islam4UK either forced to admit that wasn't the message they wanted to convey, or become part of a march against Terrorism.

Incidentally, a historical allegory for this was when Walter Moseley's Blackshirts marched through the East End of London - a prominently Jewish area, for those of you outside the UK - locals of all creeds and races united to obstruct the march, and after a few scuffles, it was stopped by the police, and they never marched again.

All in all, a good thing it didn't happen though. My tiny, blinkered self would still have been scared of a kicking, no matter how noble my intellectualised morals are.

On-topic humor - somewhat crude and not for the faint-hearted: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/guardian-readers%27-heads-explode-in-wootton-bassett-dilemma-201001052349/ - and yes, I am a Guardian reader, and I find it hilarious. The Daily Mash is a Daily Mail spoof, for those whom haven't encountered it before.

Now to be off and stop skating round the edge of Godwin's Law...

Yeah we have gone a bit off topic here havent we?

Honestly, are some of you lot just needlessly angry? Why do you get off on fighting with each other so much via the internet? It also seems rather pointless as it seems to merely be a game of who can spend the longest typing, checking search engines and looking at the synonyms on their word processors. You can be anything you like in Cyberspace.

On topic, Im glad to see that common sense prevailed. Freedom of speech is one thing, but this was just needless and in bad taste. I have also seen "parties" thrown by Islamic groups in Europe (not sure about the US) celebrating the "sacrifice" of the 9/11 bombers.

Im all for free speech, i was actually for this march happening as i find it hard to think of myself as a hypocrite, but.. yeah.. ill spill no tears over things like this getting canned it must be said.

I think Captain Roderick has got it right. on the Nick Griffin note, i thought that the BBC did it wrong, yes it should have been shown, we live in a democracy and i want it kept that way, but we didn't need all the reckling and sniggering, Nick Griffin and his supporters don't need any help looking like idiot thugs

dogma wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:YOUR reality where we can all hold hands, sing Kumbaya because 9/11 wasn't plotted by people who hate the West

Who are these people?

Fateweaver wrote:....but at increased expense to those of us not sucking off the system).

I paid for you to eat.

Fateweaver wrote:
I live in reality #2.

Right. Cute. Its like a kitty.

Unless you own any of the businesses I worked at (I doubt that) YOU didn't pay for me to eat. Tax dollars do NOT contribute to unemployment. Employers of a certain size pay so much a year per individual for insurance to cover lay offs. Maybe if I worked a federal job than you could say you paid for my unemployment but I know you didn't own any place I have worked the past 4 years so NO, you did not pay for me to eat.

For being apparently a college grad you don't know how unemployment works.

I was under the impression that unemployment was not funded solely by the employer. I was also under the impression that in part, unemployment was paid through the Social Security fund.

Also...

"For being apparently a college grad... etc..."

Has to be one of the strangest formatting instances I have ever encountered. Not an English major or anything, but that sure as hell does not sound grammatically correct...

Wrexasaur wrote:I was under the impression that unemployment was not funded solely by the employer. I was also under the impression that in part, unemployment was paid through the Social Security fund.

Also...

"For being apparently a college grad... etc..."

Has to be one of the strangest formatting instances I have ever encountered. Not an English major or anything, but that sure as hell does not sound grammatically correct...

Hey at least he didn't say "damn college boys," which is...pretty accurate.

BUSY!!! DUH!!!

Well, to the non-Liberal unemployment has never been classed as "sucking off the system".

It's compensation for having worked and losing your job through no fault of your own.

With Welfare you just have to be 18 to get it. The amount you get is dependent upon your marital status, number of kids, your sex (yes women do get more than men) and it wouldn't shock me if minorities got more than whites.

One is earned, one is not. One is paid for solely by the tax payers, one is paid for by employers. UI is taxed, welfare is not.

Unemployment insurance is a federal-state program jointly financed through federal and state employer payroll taxes (federal and state UI taxes)[17]. Generally, employers must pay both state and federal unemployment taxes if:
(1) they pay wages to employees totaling $1500 or more in any quarter of a calendar year; or,[17]
(2) they had at least one employee during any day of a week during 20 weeks in a calendar year, regardless of whether the weeks were consecutive. However, some state laws differ from the federal law.

You were partly right Wrex. UI is part of the SSA but only business owners pay for it. It's an extra "tax" on businesses.

So dogma is still wrong. Even if he owns a business I worked for in the past 3-4 years he did not pay for me to eat.

@fateweaver-whats US taxation regulations got to do with freedom of speech vs. respect for a community feeling in the UK, nothing, stop highjacking threads

Fateweaver wrote:

Just also found out gun show this weekend. I think I'll buy an AK-47 or maybe I'll get lucky and snag a BAR.

No way you're getting a BAR. Those are like impossible to find. on the positive I am gettinga new ruger target for the wifey as she broke her old one, which used to be my old one.

You know how many rounds you have to go through to crack the frame on a .22LR target pistol?


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Modquisition On:

Everyone lets move away from direct dispersions on other posters-fateweaver/Dogma/Wrexy- the baleful eye of cranky old man is looking in your direction!