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CptZach wrote:Exactly, there are no Space wolf kits for vehicles. So I don't think you should use them.

According to you, I shouldn't use space wolf infantry models for my ultramarines and vice versa. So you shouldn't use ultramarine vehicle kits for your space wolves, just as I wouldn't use dark angels vehicle kits for anything but dark angels.

Don't you understand how ridiculous this is? Its like saying, no using conversions because its not the correct model even if its WYSIWYG.

Like Tim you miss the point. There's an actual model range for the Pups. If there is a specific model for something, its not ridiculous to expect someone to use it, or make something that looks like it.

Gwar! wrote:

CptZach wrote:So you shouldn't use ultramarine kits for your space wolves.

I have no problem not using ULTRAMARINES kits, But I will use Space Marine kits TYVM.

Well see the main codex is actually called Codex:Space Marines. So according to RAW space marines and space wolves aren't the same thing...

Those vehicles are to be only used with Codex:Space Marines.

@lordofhats space marines do look like grey hunters...

So according to RAW space marines and space wolves aren't the same thing...

*trying to decide if that warrants a response*

CptZach wrote:@lordofhats space marines do look like grey hunters...

I hope you do better with critical reading on your SAT's than you do here. There is a kit for making grey hunters. Forgive me if I think your ridiculous for buying a tactical squad and saying their grey hunters instead of buying the kit to make grey hunters or some green stuff to convert the tacticals into grey hunters (don't know why you'd do that. The kits cost the same amount).

There's a guy in my FLGS who has gone through great lengths to make an amazing space wolf army. Yes. I will look down on you if you come in with a SM army and say their space wolves. If you're going to play an army, you should be able to collect the actual models for that army or make models that look like them.

So grey hunters don't have power armor and a bolter?

Oh wait...

CptZach wrote:So grey hunters don't have power armor and a bolter?

Oh wait...

-.-

Please. Go look at the models. Grey Hunter vs Tactical Maine. Does anything look a little different to you? If you can't notice the differences in the models then I really hope your just a 12 year old or something and not an adult.

As long as the models are armed properly, go for it. Want to use UMs as counts Space Wolves? Perfectly fine. Dark Angels counts as Black Templars? No problem. Just make sure those weapon options are correct!

Fluff bunnies may go into a tantrum, but big boys will realize they are all just toy soldiers ;-)

Heh, there are varying degrees of hobbyists.

Many hobbyists take their hobby to great lengths and detail, spending hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on them. Ever talked to serious classic car guys, or dedicated renn-fair, civil/revolutionary/ war reinactors?

And it's fairly common for those on the super-detail end of the hobby to have some contempt for the 'dabblers', and it's also fairly common for those who don't put much, or as much, detail into it to view the super-detailed end with disbelief or hostility in return.

I'd let it happen.

But i'd turn into the worst TFG you have ever seen, and i'd get my "I'm going to beat you into the floor" list, rather than my "It's only a casual game lets have some fun" list. But thats only if it is done regularly.

I've no problems with people saying "can i use X as Y because I'm thinking about buying Y" fine, go ahead (at home all sorts of crazy 'counts-as' shenanigans occurs) But if someone in my FLGS repeatedly switches chapters but using the same models, well, its just asking for trouble from most of the regulars.

But I'm not a jerk to those of you who drop a professionally painted army on me.

What if you were to set up your masterpiece on someone and they were like, "sorry I don't want to play you" or "you get a 0 in sportsmanship because you are too good of a modeler/painter and your making my army look bad, you jerk"

dayve110 wrote:
I've no problems with people saying "can i use X as Y because I'm thinking about buying Y" fine, go ahead (at home all sorts of crazy 'counts-as' shenanigans occurs) But if someone in my FLGS repeatedly switches chapters but using the same models, well, its just asking for trouble from most of the regulars.

Why, do you not like people having fun?
I constantly switch chapters with my marines and have never had even a single person complain. Its fun to mix it up and play a different chapter every so often. This way its like I have 4 different armies for the cost of 1.

CptZach wrote:But I'm not a jerk to those of you who drop a professionally painted army on me.

What if you were to set up your masterpiece on someone and they were like, "sorry I don't want to play you" or "you get a 0 in sportsmanship because you are too good of a modeler/painter and your making my army look bad, you jerk"

Because my army looks like a duck, acts like a duck, sounds like a duck, and is in fact... a duck!
And your army looks like a duck, acts like a sheep, sounds like a cow and is in fact a crime against nature.

dayve110 wrote:

CptZach wrote:But I'm not a jerk to those of you who drop a professionally painted army on me.

What if you were to set up your masterpiece on someone and they were like, "sorry I don't want to play you" or "you get a 0 in sportsmanship because you are too good of a modeler/painter and your making my army look bad, you jerk"

Because my army looks like a duck, acts like a duck, sounds like a duck, and is in fact... a duck!
And your army looks like a duck, acts like a sheep, sounds like a cow and is in fact a crime against nature.

So because my army doesn't look exactly like GW says it should, its wrong?

Alright, well you better have 0 conversions in your army. And heaven help you if you don't paint it exactly like it is in the GW books and use the exact same paint.

Seriously, your reasoning is just sad. As I said before, fluff players get all pissy if you don't play the game and paint stuff exactly as they think it should be.

CptZach wrote:So because my army doesn't look exactly like GW says it should, its wrong?

Alright, well you better have 0 conversions in your army. And heaven help you if you don't paint it exactly like it is in the GW books and use the exact same paint.

Seriously, your reasoning is just sad. As I said before, fluff players get all pissy if you don't play the game and paint stuff exactly as they think it should be.

Its not about fluff. If there are people who take the time to make some great armies and collect or build all the proper models, YOU should not be surprised when they give you a sour look for not even attempting to do the same. Paint is irrelevant in counts as. You can simply claim a successor chapter, different faction, they fell into a vat of pink dye at the hospital, or some other craziness. Modeling is the only real concern in the matter.

Like I said. If you're going to play an army, I don't think I'm rude, or mean, to expect you to have collected or built the proper models (EDIT: A Tau Fire Warrior is not an Eldar Ranger, and a Tactical Marine is not a Blood Claw!). Fun friendly games are one thing, but tournament play is another.

CptZach wrote:

dayve110 wrote:

CptZach wrote:But I'm not a jerk to those of you who drop a professionally painted army on me.

What if you were to set up your masterpiece on someone and they were like, "sorry I don't want to play you" or "you get a 0 in sportsmanship because you are too good of a modeler/painter and your making my army look bad, you jerk"

Because my army looks like a duck, acts like a duck, sounds like a duck, and is in fact... a duck!
And your army looks like a duck, acts like a sheep, sounds like a cow and is in fact a crime against nature.

1) So because my army doesn't look exactly like GW says it should, its wrong?

2) Alright, well you better have 0 conversions in your army. And heaven help you if you don't paint it exactly like it is in the GW books and use the exact same paint.

3) Seriously, your reasoning is just sad. As I said before, fluff players get all pissy if you don't play the game and paint stuff exactly as they think it should be.

1) Not necessarily, painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel is fine. Painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel, then using it as black templars an hour later, then the next day using it as a space wolf is taking the
2) Someone who takes things way to far is compensating for something...
3) Firstly i didn't give any reasoning... i just said what i'd do if you did play like that, so and I'm not getting pissy, insult fail much?

LordofHats wrote:
Its not about fluff. If there are people who take the time to make some great armies and collect or build all the proper models, YOU should not be surprised when they give you a sour look for not even attempting to do the same. Paint is irrelevant in counts as. You can simply claim a successor chapter, different faction, they fell into a vat of pink dye at the hospital, or some other craziness. Modeling is the only real concern in the matter.

Like I said. If you're going to play an army, I don't think I'm rude, or mean, to expect you to have collected or built the proper models. Fun friendly games are one thing, but tournament play is another.

Not everyone plays the game for the modeling aspect. I play purely for the tactical experience. While it's nice to have a nicely painted army, it's secondary to having a well-tuned list.

You won't see me just throwing together a bunch of random stuff and trying to play with it, "for the fluff".

I play to win. I don't always play well enough to win... but winning is my goal.

kuro_khan wrote:Not everyone plays the game for the modeling aspect. I play purely for the tactical experience. While it's nice to have a nicely painted army, it's secondary to having a well-tuned list.

You won't see me just throwing together a bunch of random stuff and trying to play with it, "for the fluff".

I play to win. I don't always play well enough to win... but winning is my goal.

I'm not even talking about bare to the bones break out your box of goodies and build something from scratch modeling. I'm saying that if you're going to play a unit of Sternguard, I'd expect them to look like Sternguard. I'm sure you don't walk into a game, lay out a Necron Warrior, point to it and say "That's a Pariah."

dayve110 wrote:
1) Not necessarily, painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel is fine. Painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel, then using it as black templars an hour later, then the next day using it as a space wolf is taking the
2) Someone who takes things way to far is compensating for something...
3) Firstly i didn't give any reasoning... i just said what i'd do if you did play like that, so and I'm not getting pissy, insult fail much?

dayve110, you seem to be an Eldar player.

Back when there were Craftworld options, you never tried playing as the multiple craftworld (Biel-Tan/Ulthwe/Alaitoc/etc...) with the same paint scheme? You used a totally different army for each attempt?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:

kuro_khan wrote:Not everyone plays the game for the modeling aspect. I play purely for the tactical experience. While it's nice to have a nicely painted army, it's secondary to having a well-tuned list.

You won't see me just throwing together a bunch of random stuff and trying to play with it, "for the fluff".

I play to win. I don't always play well enough to win... but winning is my goal.

I'm not even talking about bare to the bones break out your box of goodies and build something from scratch modeling. I'm saying that if you're going to play a unit of Sternguard, I'd expect them to look like Sternguard. I'm sure you don't walk into a game, lay out a Necron Warrior, point to it and say "That's a Pariah."

When I say random stuff, I don't mean scratch built. I mean crap models

Like with Tau, I'm not going to field Vespids.. ever. Yeah it's fluffy that Tau use other alien races.. but vespids suck; so I won't use them. Or Ethereals for that matter.

Never seen Sternguard, but I assume they're a unique model. If I used Sternguard, I'd use the sternguard models.

But a tac squad is the same as a grey hunter squad. There may be differences in the new Space Wolves box set, but I'm not going to go out and buy something just to appease fluff nazis. I'll make sure my list is not confusing; I'll hand you my list and you'll be able to guess what's what.

dayve110 wrote:
1) Not necessarily, painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel is fine. Painting a space marine green and saying its a blood angel, then using it as black templars an hour later, then the next day using it as a space wolf is taking the

Why? Because you play some xenos army and you can't do the same thing? So basically you think everyone should be punished because you are?

Are you one of those people who would get mad if I handed you $5 and then gave your friend $100?

LOL. Go on the GW website, click space wolves, then click heavy support. All the figs say "space marines". If I play a game and say my devastators are long-fangs, they are according to the company that makes the game and the figs.

The nay-sayers are splitting hairs about bits; the only difference between space wolves and any other marine chapter are heads and shoulder pads and one or two special characters.

When I say random stuff, I don't mean scratch built. I mean crap models

Like with Tau, I'm not going to field Vespids.. ever. Yeah it's fluffy that Tau use other alien races.. but vespids suck; so I won't use them. Or Ethereals for that matter.

Never seen Sternguard, but I assume they're a unique model. If I used Sternguard, I'd use the sternguard models.

But a tac squad is the same as a grey hunter squad. There may be differences in the new Space Wolves box set, but I'm not going to go out and buy something just to appease fluff nazis. I'll make sure my list is not confusing; I'll hand you my list and you'll be able to guess what's what.

I guess we'll just have to disagree then. Different views on the WYSIWYG.

I don't use the sternguard models. I don't like the ones they sell. But I'll never walk into a game put down a tactical squad and say they're sternguard. I'm going out of my way to make a tactical squad look like a sternguard squad. And no. Grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines. The models are different, and I'd personally expect someone who plays any army to have the proper models for that army.

LordofHats wrote: And no. Grey Hunters are not Tactical Marines. The models are different, and I'd personally expect someone who plays space wolves to have said models.

And those people that started playing space wolves before the new models should just go out and spend money to make you happy? A real world example; please tell me if I'm correct on how you feel about this. A close friend of mine has a space wolves army that he bought, painted, and played with 10 years ago. Now there are new little bits and models. According to what you've been saying, he should throw those models in the trash and go out and buy new ones now that they're available. Am I correct on your stance? Because as you said, tactical marines are now different from grey hunters.

I looked at the Space Wolf models on GW's store. It was just a cursory look, but to me, it looks like basic space marines with additional options for bits? Am I wrong?

I think they have mainly bits for CCW and bolt pistols instead of bolt guns. And a few wolfy things on them, and different heads.

A few slight cosmetic changes.

kuro_khan wrote:I looked at the Space Wolf models on GW's store. It was just a cursory look, but to me, it looks like basic space marines with more guys screaming and with bad hair? Am I wrong?

Fixed that for you. In all seriousness, though, most SW models now are simply regular marine models with different bits.

kuro_khan wrote:I'm not talking about using a squad of snipers and calling them fenrisian wolves.

I just want to use my... say green and orange colored tactical squad as Blood Angels one day, Templars another, Dark Angels on day 3, etc...

Things would be kepy WYSIWYG also.

If you guys can't get over color schemes, I just have one word...

RACISTS! :-p

First of all, there's nothing ILLEGAL about this. Counts-as can be anything. But there are valid reasons why people (including me) will disagree.

Implicit in the counts-as rule is the idea that your 'counts-as conversions' (which in this case is a differently painted marine) can obviously represent the model you're deciding it counts-as.

The problem with your generic Orange & Green Marine Army is that they look like a standard Marine army. If you wanted to have them 'counts-as' Black Templars, then I'd expect you to model/paint them in such a way that makes it obvious that they're Templars and NOT regular Marines. Maybe with surplices, or crosses, or medaeval haricuts, or whatever. If you wanted them to 'counts-as' Space Wolves, I'd kinda expect them to look a bit feral or something. Just something that makes it obvious that they're Space Wolves and not regular marines.

Of course, considering three of the four Marine variants are CC-oriented, this might be really easy...

It's also part of the 'team' mentality. As Gwar said, if you collect an army, there's the implicit assumption that you should stick with them, rather than just switch to whatever the most powerful codex is. A lot of people would have a problem with their opponent playing a Marine army, then saying they're Counts-As Space Wolves as soon at the SW codex is released, and then Counts-As Blood Angels in the Spring, once THAT's the new best codex!

kuro_khan wrote:I looked at the Space Wolf models on GW's store. It was just a cursory look, but to me, it looks like basic space marines with additional options for bits? Am I wrong?

Some of the pieces are actually part of the model and not glued on bits. Most of the pieces though have SW icons and stuff molded into them. Notice the legs, guns, and some of the belts and chest pieces. Some of the things are just bits.

And those people that started playing space wolves before the new models should just go out and spend money to make you happy? A real world example; please tell me if I'm correct on how you feel about this. A close friend of mine has a space wolves army that he bought, painted, and played with 10 years ago. Now there are new little bits and models. According to what you've been saying, he should throw those models in the trash and go out and buy new ones now that they're available. Am I correct on your stance? Because as you said, tactical marines are now different from grey hunters.

So your avid Space Wolf playing friend is never going to buy another 40k kit again? That's a little confusing. I'd think an active and avid SW player would jump on some spiffy new models, not whine because he might have to replace his army because some guy on the internet thinks he should.

Here's what he does to meet my standard. He buys one kit, and spreads the love. That one kit probably has enough bits in it to put something on a good bunch his tactical marines. At 10 years, they're probably overdue for some polish anyway. Plus he'll have the spare bodies to make more models. Make them sergeants. That's good enough for me, because guess what? Now those tactical's actually look like Space Wolves!

If he's not buying anymore models or not playing enough to buy new stuff thats fine. I'm talking more about my expectations from a tournament than friendly games on the dining room table. If there are people who take the time to build paint and assemble an army using all the right models, and I know a few who do, I'd think it rude of the player with the Ultramarines to show up at a organized competitive event to take out his army and say he's playing space wolves when his army doesn't even look like space wolves.

LordofHats wrote:So your avid Space Wolf playing friend is never going to buy another 40k kit again? That's a little confusing. I'd think an active and avid SW player would jump on some spiffy new models, not whine because he might have to replace his army because some guy on the internet thinks he should.

Here's what he does to meet my standard. He buys one kit, and spreads the love. That one kit probably has enough bits in it to put something on a good bunch his tactical marines. At 10 years, they're probably overdue for some polish anyway. Plus he'll have the spare bodies to make more models. Make them sergeants. That's good enough for me, because guess what? Now those tactical's actually look like Space Wolves!

If he's not buying anymore models or not playing enough to buy new stuff thats fine. I'm talking more about my expectations from a tournament than friendly games on the dining room table. If there are people who take the time to build paint and assemble an army using all the right models, and I know a few who do, I'd think it rude of the player with the Ultramarines to show up at a organized competitive event to take out his army and say he's playing space wolves when his army doesn't even look like space wolves.

I see your point; however, my friend primarily plays chaos but owns several armies. After 10 years his army needs some canned-air more than a new paint job.

My point here is that if there were a tournament and he showed up with his army, painted in space wolves colors mind you, and wanted to play, he shouldn't catch any guff for not having the newest, shiniest figs. We're talking about a game after all, the collecting and painting is all well and good but the whole reason we go to tournaments or play at a local store is to play a game. We're not wandering salesman for GW; if it looks like what it's supposed to be, they should be able to play it.

LordofHats wrote:So your avid Space Wolf playing friend is never going to buy another 40k kit again? That's a little confusing. I'd think an active and avid SW player would jump on some spiffy new models, not whine because he might have to replace his army because some guy on the internet thinks he should.

Here's what he does to meet my standard. He buys one kit, and spreads the love. That one kit probably has enough bits in it to put something on a good bunch his tactical marines. At 10 years, they're probably overdue for some polish anyway. Plus he'll have the spare bodies to make more models. Make them sergeants. That's good enough for me, because guess what? Now those tactical's actually look like Space Wolves!

If he's not buying anymore models or not playing enough to buy new stuff thats fine. I'm talking more about my expectations from a tournament than friendly games on the dining room table. If there are people who take the time to build paint and assemble an army using all the right models, and I know a few who do, I'd think it rude of the player with the Ultramarines to show up at a organized competitive event to take out his army and say he's playing space wolves when his army doesn't even look like space wolves.

So I think this is a little OTT.

I don't think that, if you want to play Space Wolves, you should HAVE the exact models. I also don't think that people should EVER have to buy the newest kit. I certainly prefer older models, and I'd hate to be forced to include models I don't like. If he has a 2ed Space Wolf army, that's absolutely fine, for tournaments and any other situation.

My point is that, if you're playing Space Wolves, it should be obvious that they're count-as Space Wolves and NOT just Space Marines. You could make them Space Ravens, or Space Badgers, give them a savage paint job, or make them really feral looking, or really CC equipped, or whatever. It doesn't have to be wolfy either - you could do them Greek-themed, with lots of Heroes. Whatever. It should just be obvious that they're Space Wolves, not Space Marines. That's why our hypothetical Ultramarine player is looked down upon. His army is obviously one thing, but he's playing it as another.

agnosto wrote:I see your point; however, my friend primarily plays chaos but owns several armies. After 10 years his army needs some canned-air more than a new paint job.

My point here is that if there were a tournament and he showed up with his army, painted in space wolves colors mind you, and wanted to play, he shouldn't catch any guff for not having the newest, shiniest figs. We're talking about a game after all, the collecting and painting is all well and good but the whole reason we go to tournaments or play at a local store is to play a game. We're not wandering salesman for GW; if it looks like what it's supposed to be, they should be able to play it.

I do understand where your coming from don't get me wrong. Honestly, for an old SW army, I probably would be more like "Neat! Models from when I was but a little kid!" Than upset they didn't look like new models. I'm more thinking of a player with a Black Templars army deciding he wants to play SW and not even bothering to collect the SW models or make some SW looking models.

Well I run howling Griffons, a off shoot of Ultra marine, and I use Ultra marine rules some time( like Marneus, Tigurus , Cassius)...
So are you going to say that there Not Ultramairnes?

Other times I run them as Imperial Fist, so i Use Lysander.

When the Blood Angels codex comes out im going to run them as Blood angels for a bit ....
As long as you can have models that look like what there supose to be , its fine. Plus its a game and not every can spend thousand of dollars on a new army every time. When it comes out.

StarGate wrote: Well I run howling Griffons, a off shoot of Ultra marine, and I use Ultra marine rules some time( like Marneus, Tigurus , Cassius)...
So are you going to say that there Not Ultramairnes?

Other times I run them as Imperial Fist, so i Use Lysander.

You know the C:SM actually says this is ok?