Paint requirements for Space Marines using "count-as" rules

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**kuro_khan**

Does it say anywhere that in order to field a certain Chapter you have to be painted in that Chapter's colors?

I know WH40k is rooted in its painting origins, but is there any RULE that forbids you from painting an army whatever color you like and playing whichever Chapter you want?

**Gorechild**

It dosent say they have to be painted their chapter colours to be used as that chapter.

ie. You could paint space wolves models in ultramarines colours and use them as blood angels. given they had the appropriate gear so wysiwyg or you can get your opponent to let you use things to count as pieces from the other codex.

Basically, space wolves dont have to be grey to be used as space wolves as much as you can paint ultra's pink if your heart desires

**CptZach**

Nope. Though you might get some people who complain about your red dark angels or something.

I actually just ran green "space wolves" this weekend and no one even cared about the paint scheme.

**Gwar!**

It depends on the person.

I for one would be mightily pissed off if you brought Ultramarines or Dark Angels and tried to pass them off as Space Wolves, mainly because I stuck with my Crappy Space Wolves codex for 10 years, so you can stick to your codex and not use ours!

It also just adds confusion, especially in a Tournament setting.

**Praxiss**

You coudl always paint them in your own scheme, come up with your own chapter name and use them as "counts as" ultras or whatever.

**LordofHats**

I would think that since the Space Wolves have dedicated model line out for them, I'd raise my brow if you brought in some DA or BT and tried to play them as Space Wolves. But that's modeling not painting.

For colors, just say they're a successor chapter and use that MEQ rule book.

**Praxiss**

DO space wolves have any successor chapters?

**Gitzbitah**

WYSIWIG only applies to wargear on the models. In a tournament setting, you must stick to one codex of course.

**LordofHats**

Praxiss wrote:DO space wolves have any successor chapters?

There were the Wolf Brothers, but they got squated IIRC.

You can always make up a reason XD. Just because GW has no officially recognized Successors and the fluff says that the Lords of Terra arn't particularly fond of the Wolves being so hard to control, but who knows. The Cursed 21st Founding was an attempt to remove flaws in SM geneseed. Maybe they tried to make the Space Wolves more manageable and failed, and mysteriously lost the paperwork on them :p

**kuro_khan**

OK, I'm getting a lot of:

It's confusing
Others would complain
etc...

But I'm not seeing anyone say I'm doing something "illegal".

Yay for playing a different chapter each game!

**Leigen_Zero**

I wouldn't mind if someone played smurfs etc as some other chapter (even one with it's own dex), so long as there is an intention to start a new army. I mean we can understand someone wanting to try out the wolves without having to fork out and then assemble and paint a whole new army of beakies when thier's would work fine for the time being.

However, if it gets into the state of: 'These devastators count as sky-claws, and these assault marines count as long fangs, this generic captain is ragnar, and marneus+ honour guard are his fenrisian wolves then I will have no choice but to slap you!

**Steelmage99**

I play my marines as different chapters as the mood strikes me.

My models with boltpistols/chainswords might be Bloodclaws yesterday, a Crusadersquad today and vanilla Assault marines (without jumppacks, of course) tomorrow.

**Gwar!**

kuro_khan wrote:But I'm not seeing anyone say I'm doing something "illegal".

It doesn't have to be Illegal for people to:
a) Not play you ever again.
b) DQ you from the Tournament they run because they feel like it.
c) Kick you in the 'nads for being an unsportsmanlike

.
d) All of the above.

**Majesticgoat**

I think if it has its own chapter codex then it probably should have the models to represent that chapter. I do not think the paint scheme of said models matter. If I use pink Grey Knight models and play them as Grey Knights there is no issue. If I use pink Grey Knights and play them as Space Wolves then maybe that should be a problem.

If you're sticking to the rules within Codex Space Marines and want to field a Marneus Calgar model and play him as Marneus Calgar but you want to paint him fuschia then there should not be a problem.

**skkipper**

simply test.

hand a list to somebody who has never seen your army. have them point out each squad on list. if they fail, then you probally shouldn't be using them.

**kirsanth**

If the model is correct, then the color does not really matter.

This can cause issues with some chapters, as they have specific models.

/shrug

**GCMandrake**

There's nothing stopping you using dark angels models painted pink and calling them space wolves. That's fine. The problem arises when you take dark angels painted as dark angels and are trying to pass them off as space wolves. That just smacks of lazy. It's all down to your opponents and tournament organisers if necessary. Case in point: I attended a tournament less than a month after the Space Wolves codex was released. I brought along "The Talonborn" which is what you get when you paint Space Wolves blue and replace all references to the word 'Wolf' with 'Raven'. Here they are, as taken by the tournament organisers themselves (So don't blame me that the pic's so small!)

Anyway, with the tournament so soon after the codex's release, I was the only one nuts enough to produce an army from scratch in time to enter. The big birds were Thunderwolves, and the predominant opinion i got back was "awesome". The other 'Space Wolves' entries were just generic marine armies people had called space wolves. And that was fine. No one tried to pass bikes off as Thunderwolves, or Ultramarines as Blood Claws, but it was clear who had put effort in and who hadn't, and people's opinions (and painting scores) changed accordingly.

Long story short. Paint your models how you like, so long as it's obvious and non-ambiguous what things are supposed to be. But if you try to be lazy, people will take notice. Colour doesn't matter, but cool is everything.

**CptZach**

Remember boys, everyone is all about fluff and being creative and having fun in a tournament setting. But if you don't use the correct fluff (in your opponents eyes) then you are being a jerk. (this is a funny theme with most people who want fluff/sportsmanship/painting as part of a competitive tournament.

Personally I will use my AoBR marines with their dark angels paint with whatever codex I want. If you really don't want to play me because of it, then so be it. In a tournament setting? Stop crying and get over it. I don't make sure your eldar army is painted exactly like they are in the book do I?

Spaces marines, Dark angels, space wolves ect all use the exact same range of models. Who the heck cares how you chose to paint them? If you would really mark someone down on sportsmanship because they like the DA model range or the ultra's color scheme, I would have to say that's pretty close minded.

**kuro_khan**

I'm not talking about using a squad of snipers and calling them fenrisian wolves.

I just want to use my... say green and orange colored tactical squad as Blood Angels one day, Templars another, Dark Angels on day 3, etc...

Things would be kepy WYSIWYG also.

If you guys can't get over color schemes, I just have one word...

RACISTS! :-p

**sourclams**

CptZach wrote:Remember boys, everyone is all about fluff and being creative and having fun in a tournament setting. But if you don't use the correct fluff (in your opponents eyes) then you are being a jerk. (this is a funny theme with most people who want fluff/sportsmanship/painting as part of a competitive tournament.

+1. I think it's absolutely insane how the people who are most voiciferous about adhering to fluff/background/sportsmanship are the most eager to be unsporting jerks about all of the above.

There's no rules associated with a paint scheme. If you happen to have green marines and somebody gets on your case about playing Space Wolf rules, simply tell them that it's a psychic illusion to throw off the opposing army.

In short, no, there's nothing illegal about it. And if your opponent does pitch a huge fit, you are better off not playing them.

**GCMandrake**

kuro_khan wrote:I just want to use my... say green and orange colored tactical squad as Blood Angels one day, Templars another, Dark Angels on day 3, etc...

Things would be kepy WYSIWYG also.

Well yes. Creating a custom space marine chapter which is sufficiently generic to plausibly represent all the Codex-ed chapters is the most versatile way to go. No one can really call you out on it, other than it might be a bit bland, but that's a preference thing, not a rule thing.

**LordofHats**

CptZach wrote:Spaces marines, Dark angels, space wolves ect all use the exact same range of models.

The SW have their own model range. BT and DA simply have conversion kits (Even the Sword Breathern, Veteran, and Ravenwing kits are really just the normal SM kits with the conversion kits put into them). SW infantry and elites actually have their own model range. I'd be a little disappointed if you just took you tactical squad and tried to call them grey hunters when there's a kit thats supposed to be used to make SW infantry units.

I just want to use my... say green and orange colored tactical squad as Blood Angels one day, Templars another, Dark Angels on day 3, etc...

That's fine. The Ultramarines, DA, BT, and BA actually do use the same models for everything.

**Timmah**

LordofHats wrote:
CptZach wrote:Spaces marines, Dark angels, space wolves ect all use the exact same range of models.

The SW have their own model range. BT and DA simply have conversion kits (Even the Sword Breathern, Veteran, and Ravenwing kits are really just the normal SM kits with the conversion kits put into them). SW infantry and elites actually have their own model range. I'd be a little disappointed if you just took you tactical squad and tried to call them grey hunters when there's a kit thats supposed to be used to make SW infantry units.

Really?

Does that mean you can't field any vehicles in your Space wolves army? I mean, I don't see any space wolf specific vehicles. Your a jerk if you try and use the ultramarine ones.
I'm going to throw a fit if you have any vehicles in there, or heck any converted models since they aren't the approved model range. So you can field blood claws, grey hunters, long fangs, and a few special characters. Anything else and your getting a 0 in sportsmanship and painting.

Maybe you don't like the grey hunters model range, or maybe your not a millionaire and chose to buy the AoBR marines. Are you going to call someone a jerk because they want to mix up their armies without having to buy 5 different model range sets that are all basically the same?

Personally I would prefer the changes instead of fighting the same ultramarines army 20 times, you could play SW 5 times, Ultra 5 times, DA 5 times and DT 5 times. Idk about the rest of you, but playing the same army constantly gets kinda boring.

**Gornall**

Yeah... while I love the UM fluff and whatnot, I'm actually sad that I painted my army as Smurfs, only because it prevents me from using multiple codexes if I get bored. Had I not done anything more than spray-painted them all orange, people wouldn't have a problem with me using any of the SM rulesets, but because I painted them up a certain way, people are pissed if I want to use them with a different codex even in friendly play.

**kirsanth**

Timmah wrote:Really?

Yes. Not the entire entire list, but they do have a range of models unique to their army lists.

**Kroot Loops**

There's nothing illegal about it.

That's not to say I'm not bored to tears and don't roll my eyes at all the Ultramarine armies fielding Shrike, Khan, or He'stan as their leader. Makes me wish GW had put in rules for making chapters unique, rather than chapter specific characters that change whichever army you toss them into, but I understand why SM players like it and try to keep my peace about it on the table.

Swapping them between armies that have separate codexs, rather than separate chapters in the same codex, might earn you some ire amongst the local players.

It doesn't help you that other armies don't have the option. You can't play Orks as Tyranids and be anything close to wysiwig.

**LordofHats**

Timmah wrote:Really?

Does that mean you can't field any vehicles in your Space wolves army? I mean, I don't see any space wolf specific vehicles. Your a jerk if you try and use the ultramarine ones.
I'm going to throw a fit if you have any vehicles in there, or heck any converted models since they aren't the approved model range. So you can field blood claws, grey hunters, long fangs, and a few special characters. Anything else and your getting a 0 in sportsmanship and painting.

Read better. I said INFANTRY. You know, the little box that says Space Wolf Pack on it? Yeah. They have their own infantry, and they're actually different models from the SM models.

Go to the GW site. They don't even list the Space Wolves under the Space Marines like the other deviant chapters. If you're running a SW army, I don't think its that far fetched that you build the army using the Space Wolf kits.

EDIT: Its not the same for the other three deviant chapters. The BT and DA use ALL the same models and just offer you conversion kits if you want to really get into it (or if you want to waste money you can buy kits that just have the materials to assemble a few guys). The BA have two special models, yeah, and I would think one would actually own a Baal Predator or something that looks like one when playing the unit. Same with a furioso dread.

**CptZach**

Exactly, there are no Space wolf kits for vehicles. So I don't think you should use them.

According to you, I shouldn't use space wolf infantry models for my ultramarines and vice versa. So you shouldn't use ultramarine vehicle kits for your space wolves, just as I wouldn't use dark angels vehicle kits for anything but dark angels.

Don't you understand how ridiculous this is? Its like saying, no using conversions because its not the correct model even if its WYSIWYG.

**agnosto**

If we had to buy new armies every time GW changed the line, we'd all be broke. I wouldn't bat an eye if somebody dropped an old school SW army on the table; ya know, the ones that people played before they had their own models.

I'm not going to be a tool just because someone didn't run out and plop down hundreds of dollars for the most up to date models.

The only difference is fluff and for casual players, fluff means absolutely diddly. I play 40k to meet up with friends that play and have a few laughs; if you're so deep in the story that you have a coniption if somebody doesn't have a certain color scheme or model, maybe you need a new "hobby" because what you're doing no longer fits the definition of a hobby.

* A hobby is an activity or interest that is undertaken for pleasure or relaxation, often in one's spare time.

**Gwar!**

CptZach wrote:So you shouldn't use ultramarine kits for your space wolves.

I have no problem not using ULTRAMARINES kits, But I will use Space Marine kits TYVM.