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A friend and I has looked in to playing Warmachine/Hordes. He had a player say something about an unbeatable build. We stopped looking after it was explained as it reminded us of the clix games from old Wizkids that you couldn't beat certain pieces do to interactions on the rules and such.

megatrons2nd wrote:A friend and I has looked in to playing Warmachine/Hordes. He had a player say something about an unbeatable build. We stopped looking after it was explained as it reminded us of the clix games from old Wizkids that you couldn't beat certain pieces do to interactions on the rules and such.

Not really. There are match ups that are bad and match ups that are favorable to you, just
like in any other game. I don't think anything is really unbeatable, especially in the MK2
environment.

Worst case scenario: you build your army around models with a specific damage type and
your enemy is immune to that damage type. Like anything else, if you build for a specific
one tool list, then all it takes to deny you is usually a single defense.

@megatrons2nd: Like malfred said, there isn't an unbeatable auto-win list, unless your army is focused on one damage type and the opposing army is immune to it.

@manchu: Warmachine & Hordes lack of color customization and customization in general (visual variety) is sort of a put-off for me as well. However, the running PP magazine No Quarter sometimes highlights certain variants, mostly to do with different segments of the overall army. For example, Khador has a winter-white and forest-green paint scheme as well, or Trollbloods that hail from different areas of the world having different tinges to their skin and quills. I think the upcoming Forces books will expand on this further.

Kudos to PP. They care that their product must be to the standard it's customers expect. IMO it's a good idea that they tweaked the final rules. They didn't do it to piss us off, they did it to make sure we got a better game.

Good for them, PP has gone up several places over GW in my book. I am pleased.

megatrons2nd wrote:A friend and I has looked in to playing Warmachine/Hordes. He had a player say something about an unbeatable build. We stopped looking after it was explained as it reminded us of the clix games from old Wizkids that you couldn't beat certain pieces do to interactions on the rules and such.

Nothing is further from the truth when it comes to Warmachine.

Even the lowliest piece can be a game winner, and death and victory can come in many unexpected froms, etc.

A good piece of advice: It's best to try things out then listen to other gamers. Most gamers are very set in their ways, biased and often factually innacurate about other games and systems.

Warmachine is a very challenging, action packed, and brutal game.

I thought Matt's post was pretty good. PP has some serious problems with their forums right now and I'm not sure what the solution is. It's a good step that the company actually communicates with it's customers. I'm also glad that changes were made to the rules as they were all needed.

About colour schemes, in my group of Warmahordes playing friends, I'm the only one who uses the standard scheme for my trolls. We have white cygnar, grey and red khador, glossy black and gold armour skorne with pink flesh, vivid purple and blue everblight, and voodoo masked cryx. In the shop I see people I don't know playing with variant themes as well, and if I have a good idea for my Everblight I'll paint them differently too.

The Iron Kingdoms books are for the 3.5 D'n'D roleplaying game. The fluff in it is not bad, but the rules are god awful and really poorly edited. The monsternomicon is likewise full of good ideas and art poorly executed mechanically. All the fluff you really need are in the various rulebooks and expansions, and will be consoliated into Faction books soon.

My mercs are a sea blue and jack bone. My everblight is yellow and khaki.

Pics!

Manchu wrote:
I guess what I'm getting at is that the further you get from the studio colors, the more the model seems to lose its identity--which strikes me as a pretty significant mistake in visual design that one doesn't find with the 40k range. Paint a Space Marine any color and it's recognizable immediately.

That is because marines are detailed in the fluff as wearing various colors depending on chapter, etc.

What you are describing about WM models is false. Khaodr and Cygnar and Menoth, etc. all have warjacks and each has their own color schemes for them the same as different marine chapters have different color schemes. Now if you paint a Khador warjack purple (instead of say the stock red) then it is no different then painting a Blood Angel green or a Necron gold. Both of this would/should illicit the same response you describe above and is a far more accurate analogy then comparing marines in General (a generic class of model) to a specific WM faction (which equate to a codex chapetr of marines as far as personal identity).

I see no difference in this regard between the two games. many people assume that because they "can" paint marines any color under the sun that they "should" do so or that they can do better then the stock schemes. many people fail in this regard...

frozenwastes wrote:I thought Matt's post was pretty good. PP has some serious problems with their forums right now and I'm not sure what the solution is. It's a good step that the company actually communicates with it's customers. I'm also glad that changes were made to the rules as they were all needed.

I don't know enough about WM in tell, but where these changes a big deal?

By that I mean, they were (apparently) necessary.

Did they greatly affect the game play of certain units?

Could people have planned forces using certain models that were then rendered less useful?

If so, that's why people might have gotten upset.

I guess...

i think that some folk simply got upset because they called the rules and stat cards done and even went as far as to say that they would not change between the final pdf and printing of the rules but they did.

it may see like a small thing but i know that if i made a purchase based upon the supposedly final pdf rules and found that i no longer liked said model after i read the rules changes in the printed book then id be a bit upset as well.

Buying Harbinger to abuse the hell out of Rebuke pretty much gets you what you get...

malfred wrote:Buying Harbinger to abuse the hell out of Rebuke pretty much gets you what you get...

so if i bought a model based on rules that i was told were final then i got what i deserved when the new changed rules were released?
nice mal, thanks. the biggest mistake here would be to take them at their word that nothing would change instead of waiting to see it in released print.

BTW, i play MK1 for now. i was just saying i can see why people got upset.

EDIT: Should have started with an apology. No clue why I'm so irked.

Sorry, but it was a good change. The complaints seemed to be less of "I bought this
model to do this," and more of, "I expected to be able to do this with models I already had,
so I'm angry because I thought we were done done."

At least that's how I read it. My first reply awas a bit too flip.

the internet will do that to you mal

so Malfred - is there a way to preview how a faction plays without buying something?
i know that may sound bad but i have no FLGS anymore and was considering starting retribution. i'd like to know what i'm getting before i start making purchases but with no FLGS its hard if not impossible to browse books.
am i pretty much stuck with having to buy the ret book to check them out?

That sucks. No luck with PG in your area, huh?

radiohazard seems to have a handle on the retribution here. I can try, too, though. I keep
forgetting that my articles here are mostly geared toward people who already play.

CT GAMER wrote:What you are describing about WM models is false.

And what you're describing about my post is also false. Here it is again.

Manchu wrote:I guess what I'm getting at is that the further you get from the studio colors, the more the model seems to lose its identity--which strikes me as a pretty significant mistake in visual design that one doesn't find with the 40k range. Paint a Space Marine any color and it's recognizable immediately. It could just be that my eyes are not used to seeing these shapes, however.

I then went on to describe the general difference that I could see. But, TBH, I don't understand some of your points, either.

CT GAMER wrote:Khaodr and Cygnar and Menoth, etc. all have warjacks and each has their own color schemes for them the same as different marine chapters have different color schemes.

So you're saying the main factions of WM are more like Space Marine Chapters than different armies in 40k, i.e., Cygnar and Khador are more like Ultramarines and Blood Angels than Ultramarines and Imperial Guard?

CT GAMER wrote:Now if you paint a Khador warjack purple (instead of say the stock red) then it is no different then painting a Blood Angel green or a Necron gold. Both of this would/should illicit the same response you describe above and is a far more accurate analogy then comparing marines in General (a generic class of model) to a specific WM faction (which equate to a codex chapetr of marines as far as personal identity).

I'm pretty lost here. My point was that, to my inexperienced eyes, the color schemes of the warjacks set them apart more than anything else (Chaos-Necron Cryx aside,which look nothing like the others) and so that when you have a purple devestator it becomes more difficult to tell what it is. And this in contrast to the 40k line, where it was immediately apparent to me as a beginner that Eldar Guardians--no matter what color--were NOT Space Marines or that a Leman Russ--no matter what color--was not a Basilisk. Warjacks, by comparison, seem more demanding--like asking a new player to distinguish between a Dreadnought and an Ironclad Dreadnought.

I've been told by outsiders that models seem to have distinct profiles in Warmachine. Russian
specialist snipers have a very different look from rank and file riflemen. The differences in looks
are even more apparent in Hordes than in Warmachine. Druids are extremely different
from the Skorne, etc.

The things that look the most alike, as you note, will probably be the warjacks, but
I like to think that they're starting to differentiate them more.

Warmachine has also always been a paint optional game for tournaments. Lots of players play the game with primered forces or even bare metal.

It's easier to tell stuff apart in such a game with WM or Hordes than with 40k or WFB.

malfred wrote:Russian specialist snipers have a very different look from rank and file riflemen.

LOL. I agree that Hordes factions look more distinct from each other and that, in WM, it is the warjacks that look the most alike. I think (as I've been saying) it's just a matter of getting used to their designs and delving into the IK world. Would you guys say that PP miniatures are harder to paint (well) than GW stuff?

Not really, no ... I do feel that a lot of the (newer) PP miniatures are more detailed than most GW ones, but not harder to paint well at all. Some are actually easier to get at good result out of because the base mini (unpainted) is a lot better; more dynamic, better looking, whatever you want to call it, which automatically leads to it looking better

One caveat though, 'jacks can be an pain to paint well because it can be so hard to highlight/shade big surfaces. Especially the Retribution of Scyrah 'jacks!
Also units can be a little more annoying to paint because of the level of detail, but since 'jacks are a lot more fun to play with, you (probably) won't be playing a bazillion units at one time anyways.

Well, there's a local who calls PP models "sausage arms".

And it's hard not to agree with him sometimes.

more detailed, sometimes, but I don't think PP's models are really any better than GW's in terms of quality. If you like the style, that's one thing, but they have some awful turkey sculpts.

Da Boss wrote:more detailed, sometimes, but I don't think PP's models are really any better than GW's in terms of quality. If you like the style, that's one thing, but they have some awful turkey sculpts.

I agree. Like the hobgoblins that make up Everblight's infantry-- oh sorry, I mean winter elves, my mistake.

I'm a big heretic that uses some GW models for Warmachine though.

Manchu wrote:Thanks very much, guys. It is hard to follow PP's publications for the uninitiated considering how almost everything seemed to be out of print by the time MkII was announced (maybe earlier?) and since I could only see "army books" for mercs and elves.

There is only 1 MKII army book out at the moment - for Retribution.

Forces of WARMACHINE: Cygnar will be released in February, followed by Khador in March. Then Menoth, Cryx and finally Mercs.

HORDES MKII will be released in August. The order of release for Forces of HORDES will be Skorne, Trollblood, Legion and then Circle.

I keep forgetting that epic Morghoul, I mean Skorne, won the summer rampage.

Manchu wrote:I'm pretty lost here. My point was that, to my inexperienced eyes, the color schemes of the warjacks set them apart more than anything else (Chaos-Necron Cryx aside,which look nothing like the others) and so that when you have a purple devestator it becomes more difficult to tell what it is. And this in contrast to the 40k line, where it was immediately apparent to me as a beginner that Eldar Guardians--no matter what color--were NOT Space Marines or that a Leman Russ--no matter what color--was not a Basilisk. Warjacks, by comparison, seem more demanding--like asking a new player to distinguish between a Dreadnought and an Ironclad Dreadnought.

Within Factions (for the most part) that is intentionally the case; Most of the Heavy 'Jacks within a faction are intended to be derived from the same "chassis" same with the lights. The main difference being the armament. Some 'Jacks are even "similar" across factions, See some of the 'Merc Jacs are very similar to Cygnar Jacks. This, again is a design decision. Fluff-wise, Cygnar makes more Jacks, and Menoth Loots Cygnar's Jacks, Mercs use old Cygnar Jacks, Cryx and Khador Build their own stuff ('natch).

My Khador are white covered with a brown wash, with gold and dark red trim.

I'm glad to hear drudges got cheaper. They needed that.

Pics? Didn't see any WH in your gallery.