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Therion wrote:Nothing here but theory. Post the competitive long range (36"-48") shooty SM army lists if you think they exist and we'll then have a look if SW can match that firepower in the amount of heavy weapons with similar range, or not.

Here ya go. Played this army at Battleforge's monthly tournament this past weekend. Went 3-0 and finished 7th out of 36. Round one, I defeated a Stelek variant marine list with 3 Riflemen Dreads, Master of Forge with Beamer, 2 Dakka Preds, 6 MM/HF speeders, an Assault Cannon dread, and 4 minimum sized Tac squads in Razorbacks (2x twin-lascannon, 2x twin-assault cannon). Round two, I played a Thunderwolf Cav list with two lords and Njal and ended up tabling him on turn 6. Round three I played a shooty IG list with 2 demolishers, a Vendetta, a Valkyrie, 2 Banewolfs and more Chimeras than I could count easily. Both the SW and the IG player went first against me.

2000 Pts - Space Marines Roster - Void Eagles Third Company

Brother Thomas Aquinas, Codicier of the Third Company (1#, 150 pts)
1 Space Marine Librarian @ 150 pts (...in Power Armour; Epistolary; Null Zone; The Avenger)
1 ...in Power Armour (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Psychic Hood; Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon)

Squad Arsenios (11#, 290 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 290 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Plasmagun; Lascannon; Razorback)
1 Brother-Sergeant Arsenios (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolter; Power Fist)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Squad Damocles (11#, 285 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 285 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Plasmagun; Lascannon; Razorback)
1 Brother-Sergeant Damocles (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Squad Sansom (11#, 280 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 280 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher; Razorback)
1 Brother-Sergeant Sansom (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolter; Power Fist)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Squad Damon (11#, 275 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 275 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher; Razorback)
1 Brother-Sergeant Damon (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 120 pts)
1 Predator @ 120 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Lascannon (each side))

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 130 pts)
1 Vindicator @ 130 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Extra Armor; Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter)

Heavy Support: Thunderfire Cannon (1#, 100 pts)
1 Thunderfire Cannon @ 100 pts (Thunderfire Cannon)
1 Techmarine Gunner (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Artificer Armour; Servo Harness; Bolt Pistol; Thunderfire Cannon)
1 Servo Harness

Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squad (3#, 120 pts)
3 Attack Bike Squad @ 120 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x3; Heavy Bolter x3)

Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squad (3#, 150 pts)
3 Attack Bike Squad @ 150 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x3; Multi-Melta x3)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 90 pts)
1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 90 pts (Heavy Bolter x1; Typhoon Missile Launcher x1)

What happened in the game vs. the IG player?

Fetterkey wrote:What happened in the game vs. the IG player?

The Melta Vets in the Valkryie scout moved and alpha struck the Vindicator. The Vendetta scouted forward and then shoot the Thunderfire off the table. Alot of other shooting went into suppressing the 10 man tactical squad in cover closest to him. Deployment was spearhead and I deployed as far back as possible to maximize the distance he had to close to get the banewolves and demolishers into play. My turn one, I killed one of the banewolfs and the Valkyrie, along with the melta vets who had dropped from it. We traded kill points for most of the game, him trying to reduce my 10 man squads (including one in a bolstered ruin making the use of that 3+ cover) and me picking of the Chimeras, until the MM bikes came in from reserves on turn three and killed a demolisher followed by the HB bikes popping a Chimera on the side and killing the squad inside the next turn. I ended up winning 10 KP to 6. I think he didn't really play aggressive enough. He stayed at the 36-48" range band where our shooting was about equal instead of closing aggressively where he could overwhelm me with his superior number of special weapons.

2000 Pts - Space Marines Roster - Void Eagles Third Company

Brother Thomas Aquinas, Codicier of the Third Company (1#, 150 pts)
1 Space Marine Librarian @ 150 pts (...in Power Armour; Epistolary; Null Zone; The Avenger)
1 ...in Power Armour (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Psychic Hood; Bolt Pistol; Force Weapon)

Squad Arsenios (11#, 290 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 290 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Plasmagun; Lascannon; Razorback)
1 Brother-Sergeant Arsenios (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolter; Power Fist)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Squad Damocles (11#, 285 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 285 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Plasmagun; Lascannon; Razorback)
1 Brother-Sergeant Damocles (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Squad Sansom (11#, 280 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 280 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher; Razorback)
1 Brother-Sergeant Sansom (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Bolter; Power Fist)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Squad Damon (11#, 275 pts)
9 Tactical Squad @ 275 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol x9; Bolter x7; Plasmagun; Missile Launcher; Razorback)
1 Brother-Sergeant Damon (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon)
1 Razorback (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Lascannon; Twin-Linked Plasmagun; Lascannon and TL Plasmagun)

Heavy Support: Predator (1#, 120 pts)
1 Predator @ 120 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Autocannon; Lascannon (each side))

Heavy Support: Vindicator (1#, 130 pts)
1 Vindicator @ 130 pts (Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Extra Armor; Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter)

Heavy Support: Thunderfire Cannon (1#, 100 pts)
1 Thunderfire Cannon @ 100 pts (Thunderfire Cannon)
1 Techmarine Gunner (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Artificer Armour; Servo Harness; Bolt Pistol; Thunderfire Cannon)
1 Servo Harness

Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squad (3#, 120 pts)
3 Attack Bike Squad @ 120 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x3; Heavy Bolter x3)

Fast Attack: Attack Bike Squad (3#, 150 pts)
3 Attack Bike Squad @ 150 pts (Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Space Marine Bike; Bolt Pistol x3; Multi-Melta x3)

Fast Attack: Land Speeder Squadron (1#, 90 pts)
1 Land Speeder Squadron @ 90 pts (Heavy Bolter x1; Typhoon Missile Launcher x1)

Cool list.

I haven't ever played any 40K tournaments at 2K points level since that's very uncommon here, but off the top of my head, the SW could do:

Rune Priest, Chooser of Slain
Dreadnought, 2x Twin Autocannon
Dreadnought, 2x Twin Autocannon
Dreadnought, 2x Twin Autocannon
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
2 Land Speeders, Multi-Meltas
2 Land Speeders, Multi-Meltas
2 Land Speeders, Multi-Meltas
Predator, Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters
Predator, Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters
Predator, Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters

Sure it doesn't have the exact same weapons, but it sure has a lot of every type of weapon. Tons of them in fact. Let's calculate.

Your list, even though you get some discount by spending on stuff like Attack Bikes, has:

8 Lascannons
4 Plasma Guns
4 TL Plasma Guns
2 Missile Launchers
1 Autocannons
1 Demolisher Cannons
1 Thunderfire Cannons
4 Heavy Bolters
3 Multi-Meltas
1 Typhoon Missile Launcher

So your list has a total of 29 heavy or special weapons. 12 of those could be counted as real anti-tank weapons, while the rest are S8 or lower.

The SW list I posted has:

TL Autocannons: 6
Autocannons: 3
Lascannons: 6
TL Plasma Guns: 6
Multi-Meltas: 6
Heavy Bolters: 6
Flamers: 6

The total of heavy or special weapons is 39. Ten more than your list. In the SW list, the same 12 could be counted as real anti-tank weapons.

Both lists have anti-psyker abilities and their own psychic powers.

The point of this excercise was not to post a list better than yours because I'm sure your list works well. Your list has a few very high quality heavy weapons that don't add up the numbers but count as quite a few and you naturally know it. However, the point was to show that SW are indeed very shooty, no matter which way they go with unit selection (Long Fangs, 2man Wolf Guard Razorbacks, etc). I think some of the people in this thread are mistaken if they consider Space Wolves an assault army.

I don't see anything particularly frightening about that list. A SW player mirroring it would have a better librarian, and would trade 4x lascannons for two big skyclaw packs, and the assault bike squads for their land speeder equivalents.

You would have a slight edge in long range shooting, but any razorback squads that headed forward would face their mirror plus a skyclaw pack.

In the alternative you could take wolf scouts and outflank into the jucy 5 man marine units.

Beating a SW army nearly half his points in three models really says more about the SW player then your army. It is easy to load up on characters in a SW list, but a good wolf knows that they can't do it all on their own.

Therion wrote:
The point of this excercise was not to post a list better than yours because I'm sure your list works well. Your list has a few very high quality heavy weapons that don't add up the numbers but count as quite a few and you naturally know it. However, the point was to show that SW are indeed very shooty, no matter which way they go with unit selection (Long Fangs, 2man Wolf Guard Razorbacks, etc). I think some of the people in this thread are mistaken if they consider Space Wolves an assault army.

Bingo. The high cost of a Tactical marine squad, especially relative to Space Wolves Grey Hunters, as well as their inability to take any specials if numbering 9 models or fewer, does cut down on the weapon density in the list. This doesn't of necessity make SW "more" shooty than SM, but you are simply slowed if you think that SW are forced into an assault niche.

Therion wrote:Cool list.

I haven't ever played any 40K tournaments at 2K points level since that's very uncommon here, but off the top of my head, the SW could do:

Rune Priest, Chooser of Slain
Dreadnought, 2x Twin Autocannon
Dreadnought, 2x Twin Autocannon
Dreadnought, 2x Twin Autocannon
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
5 Grey Hunters, Flamer, Razorback, Lascannon & TL Plasma Gun
2 Land Speeders, Multi-Meltas
2 Land Speeders, Multi-Meltas
2 Land Speeders, Multi-Meltas
Predator, Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters
Predator, Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters
Predator, Autocannon, 2 Heavy Bolters

Sure it doesn't have the exact same weapons, but it sure has a lot of every type of weapon. Tons of them in fact. Let's calculate.

Your list, even though you get some discount by spending on stuff like Attack Bikes, has:

8 Lascannons
4 Plasma Guns
4 TL Plasma Guns
2 Missile Launchers
1 Autocannons
1 Demolisher Cannons
1 Thunderfire Cannons
4 Heavy Bolters
3 Multi-Meltas
1 Typhoon Missile Launcher

So your list has a total of 29 heavy or special weapons. 12 of those could be counted as real anti-tank weapons, while the rest are S8 or lower.

The SW list I posted has:

TL Autocannons: 6
Autocannons: 3
Lascannons: 6
TL Plasma Guns: 6
Multi-Meltas: 6
Heavy Bolters: 6
Flamers: 6

The total of heavy or special weapons is 39. Ten more than your list. In the SW list, the same 12 could be counted as real anti-tank weapons.

Both lists have anti-psyker abilities and their own psychic powers.

The point of this excercise was not to post a list better than yours because I'm sure your list works well. Your list has a few very high quality heavy weapons that don't add up the numbers but count as quite a few and you naturally know it. However, the point was to show that SW are indeed very shooty, no matter which way they go with unit selection (Long Fangs, 2man Wolf Guard Razorbacks, etc). I think some of the people in this thread are mistaken if they consider Space Wolves an assault army.

Interesting SW Army. I think the real difference between the two is not the number of heavy/special weapons, but the number of targets they can engage. You have 6 twin-linked autocannons, but they can only shoot 3 targets. You have 3 autocannons and 6 heavy bolters that can only shoot at three seperate targets. My 8 lascannons can shoot at 7 different targets, with only one autocannon being slaved to them (the twin plasma guns washout). My 4 missile launchers can still shoot 3 seperate targets. Your MM speeders are more flexible than the attack bikes in terms of shooting targets, but you do lose the ability to assault with your FA against weak units. Its proven considerably useful over time, especially against Eldar, IG and DE. And there really is no equivalent to the Thunderfire cannons torrent. I would definately bet on my Marines in a long range fight, but agree that SW are definately capable of being a serious shooty army.

Just MAXXing out the SW list:

Rune Priest, Living Lightning,Chooser of the Slain
Rune Priest, Living Lightning (Factoring in Chooser of the Slain and 2d6 shots, 4 Autocannons)

5x5 GH+Flamer in LazPlazbacks (5 Flamers, 5 T/L Plas, 5 Las)

3x Typhoon Speeders (6 ML, 6 HB)

2x TL AC Dreadnought (4 T/L Autocannons)

3x AC/Las Pred (3 Autocannons, 6 Lascannons)

1x 4 Wolf Guard, 4x Combi Melta, Drop Pod (4 combi meltas)

Total it up, 48 special and heavy weapons, 32 of which are legitimate anti tank weapons with R48 or greater and S7 or greater/melta.

PanzerLeader:

I don't think that anyone is saying that the Space Wolves can't have effective shooting. Saying that Space Marines have more effective shooting than Space Wolves, and that the added close combat effectiveness of Space Wolves makes up that difference.

You also have a good point about the number of targets your army can engage. Now to add the number of units than an enemy would have to engage, assuming, Therion's and your own list.

By my count we have 18 targets in your Space Marine army with 21 in the Space Wolf army.

Nurglitch wrote:PanzerLeader:

I don't think that anyone is saying that the Space Wolves can't have effective shooting. Saying that Space Marines have more effective shooting than Space Wolves, and that the added close combat effectiveness of Space Wolves makes up that difference.

You also have a good point about the number of targets your army can engage. Now to add the number of units than an enemy would have to engage, assuming, Therion's and your own list.

By my count we have 18 targets in your Space Marine army with 21 in the Space Wolf army.

I think we're on the same page. I like the SW army, just think the Marine army is a little more efficient at building a gun line because it has more versatile platforms for its heavy weapons, especially in the Fast Attack section.

The best thing about the Long Fangs I think is the splitting targets. There are many times that I only need 1 or 2 shots to kill a vehicle and want to split my fire, but can't, or couldn't until the Long Fangs.

Combat Squads provides the same effect with increased resiliency and flexibility as well.

If by "same effect" you mean "different effect" then you are correct.

I think the largest difference in SW and SM shooting is the inclusion of Sternguard, one of the better, im my opinion, shooting units in the game. Other than that, they are relatively interchangable, other than ditching Combat or Chapter Tactics with Acute Senses and Counter Attack.

ph34r:

I think by "same effect" he means "same effect" and remains correct. A single Force Organization slot of Long Fangs can engage two target units, while a single Force Organization slot of Devastators can engage two target units. The Long Fangs can have five Heavy Weapons, while the Devastators can have a Signum and meat-shields.

But the Devastator Combat Squads will split incoming fire between them (or require overkill to solve), and can use Combat Tactics to reverse out of combat and unload with Heavy Weapons, escape Pinning, and deny charges in the first place.

It costs Long Fangs 115 points to get a 5 man squad with 4 missile launchers.

It costs Devestators 150 points to get a 5 man squad with 4 missile launchers, and combat squadding will make one unit Ld8. To give the squad "meat-shields", you pay 16 points per wound. Spending more points to make a sub-optimal unit more optimal... doesn't.

sourclams:

You can't divide a five man squad using Combat Squads, though I'd be interested in hearing why it is you believe Devastators to be "sub-optimal".

They're slow, expensive, and vulnerable to shooting. Unless you buy lots of meatbags (making it more expensive) you can't even split fire. While Longfangs are just as slow and vulnerable to shooting, they also are much cheaper, allowing them to actually work.

My bad on Combat Squadding a 5 man unit. That actually makes Devs significantly worse in the Dev-SW comparison if you weigh splitting fire as a 'significant benefit'.

So really the comparison is between a 115 point unit and a 150 point unit that are, to most practical purposes, identical. Cheaper unit wins out.

Trick these guys out, and you've got a 150 point unit with 5 missile launchers versus a 230 point unit with 4 missile launchers and 5 wound counters. Since the purpose of the unit is almost entirely weighted in how much offensive firepower it can throw out (scoring, assaulting, and to some extent even survivability are non-issues) again the cheaper unit wins out.

There's a reason Long Fangs are the only Devastator Squad that see competitive tabletop play, and oftentimes only units of 3 in a Rhino.

sourclams:

I don't think we're really talking about cost, because that only matters if the value is equal. If the value is commensurate with the increase in cost, the best you can say is "dead heat".

As you suggest you have a 150 point unit of Long Fangs with five Missile Launchers and two units of Devastators with four Missile Launchers for 230 points. But for practical purposes these units are not identical.

The Long Fangs have more firepower if, and only if, they are not locked in combat, pinned, or dead.

Well, same with Devastators right? No, if one unit of Long Fangs is pinned, then firepower = 0, while if one unit of Devastators is pinned, then firepower = 50%.

Ditto for being locked in combat. If one unit of Long Fangs is locked in combat, then one unit of Devastators will not be, and the Devastator unit locked in combat will be better able to escape thanks to Combat Tactics. That's if the unit hasn't used Combat Tactics to evade being locked in combat.

Being good at combat doesn't leverage the Long Fang's ability to shoot, because it means that they'll either win or lose their combat by a small margin, and probably continue to be locked, making their Missile Launcher expensive clubs. Any wounds allocated to the unit will kill those Missile launchers.

Regarding being dead, because that's what one of the Long Fangs will be if they've been pinned. Each additional wound will reduce the unit's firepower by one Missile Launcher, while the Devastator combat squads would have to take four wounds to lose a Missile Launcher.

If Long Fangs are the only Heavy Support squad that sees competitive table-top play, then 'that's simply a comment on the state of "competitive" 40k.

Nurglitch wrote:If Long Fangs are the only Heavy Support squad that sees competitive table-top play, then 'that's simply a comment on the state of "competitive" 40k.

You mean where cheaper=better and killy, spammable units are king? Yup... that's pretty much competitive 40k.

In all seriousness, Longfangs do their job (killing stuff at range) better and at a cheaper price than Devastators. Yeah, Devastators can combat squad... but that enough for a whole additional Longfang squad (230 for 4 ML Devs vs 115 each for a 4 ML Longfang unit). Even with bullet catchers, the fact that the SW can front load their attacks is huge of itself. Yeah, they might lose men faster, but they are also popping off double the shots (at double the targets) from the very beginning.

Gornall:

Sure, if the Space Wolf player gets the initiative and shoots on the first turn, then the Space Wolves will definitely front-load more firepower if they would have had Devastators otherwise.

If they don't get the first turn, then they don't survive as well to deliver their payload in the following turns.

So for approximately 50% of the games, Longfangs frontload more firepower. That's pretty huge.

The other 50% of the time, the SW player starts out with twice the number of heavy weapons. Even if the bullet catchers help with survivability, because the Longfangs were cheaper, he can afford to lose more.

If the opposing player pastes five Marines, both SW and SM lose a Combat Squad (assuming the SM player Combat Squadded). However, the SW player still has 4 HWs left while the SM player has only 2. If he drops fewer than that, then it's possible that the SM player still has 4 (even though with wound allocation and random fails, that isn't certain) while the SW player has more than 4. If he can kill more than 5, then it becomes closer, depending on the SMs allocation of saves.

If the SM player doesn't combat squad, then it's possible for more HWs to survive depending on saves, but then you're losing all the other benefits such as split fire and not being tied down.

The fact is, if the SW player has Heavy Slots to spare (as most probably do), then LFs provide the same number of bodies with twice the HWs at the same price.

Let me jump in here, I am a gun line guard player, and I have fought every army in 40k to be fought. On top of that my best friend plays wolves so I have quite a bit of experience fighting them. And here is why I think space wolves are not an effective shooting army (I mean in comparison to regular space marines). Precisely because GH cannot get heavy weapons. As a guard player I will ignore them and target the rest of your army. And since they cant hurt me from across the board whatever points you have sunk into them is wasted. What is that you say? they can have 2 meltaguns? Well how are you going to get them to me? drive your razorbacks full speed getting rid of their fire potential? As for long fangs they would be precisely what my executioner or Frodo and his fellowship of ratlings would be targetting. That many heavy weapons in such a squishy package is to good to ignore.

Tac squads with lascannons can hurt me from across the board so I have to pay attention to them, and as for devastaors those ablative marines are worth their weight in gold once basilisk salvoes start flying

I don't think it matters whether the army is SM or SW... they're not going to do well in a shooting match against guard.

I will concede that the little objective camping combat squads can at least pop off a shot here or there to support the advancing force. However, I don't think the loss of 3-4 HWs (if you take that many Tacticals) over an entire army is a deal-breaker, especially when you can buy both dedicated close-range firepower (GHs) and long-range firepower (LFs) cheaper.

I don't think it matters whether the army is SM or SW... they're not going to do well in a shooting match against guard.

I will concede that the little objective camping combat squads can at least pop off a shot here or there to support the advancing force. However, I don't think the loss of 3-4 HWs (if you take that many Tacticals) over an entire army is a deal-breaker, especially when you can buy both dedicated close-range firepower (GHs) and long-range firepower (LFs) cheaper.

I would actually like to face Panzer Leaders army. I think that is a pretty solid shooty list

And dropping 4 heavy weapons is the equivalent of another devastator squad

Volkov wrote:And dropping 4 heavy weapons is the equivalent of another devastator squad

That's actually a pretty good point. However, it's also assuming that they always combat squad and never move which may or may not be a valid assumption depending on your playstyle. Also, you're having half a Tactical Squad sit there and do nothing but eat bullets for the HW guy.

I guess my point is that I feel that LFs are cheap enough to overcome that potential weakness. "Oops... I lost 4 HWs off of my troops. Here, I'll just drop in another LF squad." Now I still have those HWs, but I also have Marines that aren't afraid to get in close and mix it up with Bolters, ubergrit, and Counter-Attack and aren't being tied down to support a single heavy weapon. Not to mention they are cheaper and double up on special weapons. A 10 man Tactical Squad is 20 points more expensive than GH squad, losing the free HW for an extra flamer. Four of those in an army and you have 80 extra points... 10 more points and you can buy a three ML LF team.

I really do think that the "loss" of shooty ability in the SW codex is overstated, especially when you look at the CC advantages they get. You have a Marine army that can whittle you down at range before closing and finishing up with Bolters and CC... something that SM lists have a hard time doing.

And dropping 4 heavy weapons is the equivalent of another devastator squad

Ehm I think me and sourclams have posted lists with 10 and 20 more heavy/special weapons than the SM list posted here. There's no lack of guns in the SW codex. Are you guys completely forgetting the cool thing called points costs? Wow, that 200+ point Tactical Squad with a Rhino is such an impressively points effective way to get a single lascannon to your army!

Therion wrote:

And dropping 4 heavy weapons is the equivalent of another devastator squad

Ehm I think me and sourclams have posted lists with 10 and 20 more heavy/special weapons than the SM list posted here. There's no lack of guns in the SW codex. Are you guys completely forgetting the cool thing called points costs? Wow, that 200+ point Tactical Squad with a Rhino is such an impressively points effective way to get a single lascannon to your army!

Yeah, nobody seems to have addressed this point yet. The SW list I posted has 20 more special and heavy weapons, and the same increase again in legitimate anti-tank weapons.

As you suggest you have a 150 point unit of Long Fangs with five Missile Launchers and two units of Devastators with four Missile Launchers for 230 points. But for practical purposes these units are not identical.

This is exactly what Therion is talking about. Of course these units are not identical. Unit A is being compared to two of Unit B, who is also getting the benefit of 150% resource allocation, and cheating on the point cost. Let's actually *try* to compare apples and apples here.

2 LF squads with 5 bodies and 4 MLs - 230 points
2 Dev squads with 5 bodies and 4 MLs - 300 points

What is better, Nurglitch? 8 Missile Launchers on 5 MEQs for 230 points, or 8 Missile Launchers on 5 MEQs for 300 points? If you try fitting 3 of each into their respective lists the LF pull ahead by 105 points- that's a free Typhoon Speeder for even MORE heavy weapon saturation.

And if you really say you're going to cram in shield marines onto the Devs to make use of combat squadding and ablative wounds, you spend another 80 points per selection. Truly horrible return compared to the Long Fangs.

I don't really feel like rallying to the defense of space marines but here goes...by min maxing squad sizes like the wolf lists posted here, SM would be able to get 6 more heavy weapons, whereas the SW have close to 500 points of troops scratching their ass. That kind of seems to take away from the argument of devastators being more expensive. I don't have a SM codex with me at the moment but I am sure I could fashion a list with just as many if not more heavy weapons as the SW. Panzer leaders list wasn't made to maximize heavy weapons it just leans in that direction