Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

LordofHats wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:OTOH, if you want to explain why you think there's an *actual* ethical decision being made, perhaps you can start up a new thread Off Topic. If you do this, I'd be very curious to see what you have to say. I certainly hope it won't be more of the ignorant, race-baiting ranting I've seen of late.

Toys containing lead and various other toxic chemicals. Baby food containing arsenic. Melamine in pet food (and in Baby Formula I might add as well). Toothpaste made with freak'n anti-freeze.

I think I have more than a few legs to stand on when claiming the inferiority of product.

No one outsources the production of quality goods to China. We do get what we pay for, and its cheaply made and there are still a great many accusations of China making things containing toxins.

Now, go to Barnes & Noble and buy a copy of Upton Sinclair's _The Jungle_. Ask yourself why the Food & Drug Admin even exists. Or maybe see how KFC treats the chickens. Or the Amish raise puppies in their mills. Or read about why Steak N Shake grinds their meat onsite. Yeah, clearly, China is the only problem.

Are you aware that Boeing has a lot of Chinese manufacturing done for them? Over a third of the entire Boeing fleet (4,000+ planes) uses Chinese-made parts. Think about that the next time you get on an airplane and what that means for "quality goods".

Maybe you should do some actual homework, rather than spouting grossly-ignorant stuff.


In any case, companies like Boeing, Sony, etc. use Chinese manufacturing because they can produce quality goods at a lower cost than Americans and Japanese. That's a fact.

And with that, I'm outta here...

Have fun, guys.

LunaHound wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

nintendoeats wrote:Done. I apologise in advance.

You have nothing to apologize for. I'm sure you have your reasons, and if you posted them, I thank you in advance for taking the time to lay them out in some sort of rational fashion.

Hey John , do you watch asian news?
Can you explain to shuma just how bad Chinese exports are to him?

He think its been blown out of proportion for some reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:And I'm glad you're posting under both your and LordofHats accounts. Otherwise how exactly would you know what his sources are?

There is nothing else i can say to that other than
*face palm. why? source?

ANYONE that keep track of news in asia know how bad its going on there with China.
wow i cant believe this seriously.

Get someone to translate this for you shuma , till then i dont think you'll listen to anything people tell you , unbelievable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9oXLl12H0U

Please, do site an example. It's quite impressive functionally to post six lines and say nothing, but it's also not particularly impressive intellectually. Please, tell me of the comparative advantages and disadvantages of general assembly in chinese factories as opposed to efforts more close to home. I mean, I know melamine in milk, and lead in a line of children's toys are pretty big things (the milk was big domestically in china, it had little impact on the export market and most lead exposure fears are overblown considering the functional recall methods used) but what can you show me that actually impacts a consumer of chinese goods? Did you know the first run of the Iphone was made in sweatshop conditions (in indonesia)? Did you know that modern fishing during red tide seasons accounts for more sicknesses annually than lead infected chinese toys?

It's funny how all these facts devoid of context are completely meaningless. Much like this unsubstantive exchange.

Get someone to translate this for you shuma , till then i dont think you'll listen to anything people tell you , unbelievable.

I listen to plenty of people. You historically haven't been one of them due to your inability to post substantively or logically and you're inability to support yourself beyond the most oblique and non sensical ways (yes, that video is all well and such, how nice of you to require someone to learn a foreign language to rebut what is seemingly your only defense).

Hey here are more , these certainly are NOT on fox news , not sure why you think they'll be?


Haha here is a funny one from Jacky Chan , he says he rather buy Japanese TV as his chinese one blew up




Yes i know , Chinese product are no big deal , thats why domestic products purchases suddenly doubled lol...


Fake Organic exports:


Sweets soaked in bleach:


Fake couterfeit Medicine


Cancer causing Chinese honey exports: Repackaged at Russia / Thailand , then exported again into USA



Want anymore sir?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:
I listen to plenty of people. You historically haven't been one of them due to your inability to post substantively or logically and you're inability to support yourself beyond the most oblique and non sensical ways (yes, that video is all well and such, how nice of you to require someone to learn a foreign language to rebut what is seemingly your only defense).

Let me put this politely for you Shuma ...

China is in asia , your "Fox News" will only keep track of incidents that happen to N.America
what im saying is , what you "know" or the news you are "exposed to" is extremely limited.

Im not rebuting this way because im tricking people to watch something that they dont understand.
Its because this is exactly HOW BAD it is in asia , which again you refuse to listen because your Fox News dont report them

Hey here are more , these certainly are NOT on fox news , not sure why you think they'll be?

PROBABLY BECAUSE I WAS RESPONDING TO SOMEONE ELSES EXAMPLES AND NOT YOURS. *ahem*

Look at all those nice videos.

Want anymore sir?

Sure. I love foreign language videos of illegal industrial practices without context.

Here, while you're shouting youtube at me have fun reading something. It's in english and not chinese so I'm not sure if everyone here will be able to enjoy it. Maybe it will add some perspective. But I somehow doubt it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_hygiene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_safety_and_health
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazard_analysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_Safety_Management

I think I know why DD ran out on this thread. It's like I'm debating with a loudspeaker (not using one, I mean theres one in front of me and I'm trying to explain perspective in regards to safety and product hazards, but I can't even begin to start because it's just blaring at me). It's like talking the UAE with Lord Hat or something. It's just all FATWAs and carbombs, no perspective or insistence on a review of the actual margin of issues per capita.

ShumaGorath wrote:When every example was floated on fox news for weeks then I'm going to err on the safe side and just assume that the poster doesn't actually know much beyond what's been laid in front of them.

Well gee. Thanks for stereotyping. I'll assume by the Fox comment you adhere to the other equally polorized news networks like NBC or CNN. Hint. They all suck. Oh and I do love how you assume Luna and I are the same. Thats wonderful. Heaven forbid we actual have brains and care about whether or not our finely made Chinese crap can kill us.

Do you know what those major corporations you listed outsource to Asia? Grunt work. The real work happens in the US (Edit: and other developed nations of course) where the education is viewed by these companies as higher. Cheap labor is China's only real global resource, and cheap labor does cheap work with cheap and often unsafe materials. This has been a problem in Chinese manufacturing for decades and it still is.

Here, while you're shouting youtube at me have fun reading something. It's in english and not chinese so I'm not sure if everyone here will be able to enjoy it. Maybe it will add some perspective. But I somehow doubt it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_hygiene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_safety_and_health
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazard_analysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_Safety_Management

I think I know why DD ran out on this thread. It's like I'm debating with a loudspeaker (not using one, I mean theres one in front of me and I'm trying to explain perspective in regards to safety and product hazards, but I can't even begin to start because it's just blaring at me).

talk about six lines that don't say anything.

Yes Lordhat , what you just said is actually in the 3 rd video i just linked. Ppl just dont know , or refuse to believe for some reason -_-

ShumaGorath wrote:Sure. I love foreign language videos of illegal industrial practices without context.

Well shuma as the 5 different news channels i listed certainly dont speak english , and you certainly think im making this up.
Then i guess you are right , none of this actually happend.

Well gee. Thanks for stereotyping. I'll assume by the Fox comment you adhere to the other equally polorized news networks like NBC or CNN.

Nope, my comment could have been rotated through all those networks. It would have remained the same. It spoke of a limited range of experience concerning an emotional issue, not that you prescribe to a specific political spectrum.

Oh and I do love how you assume Luna and I are the same. Thats wonderful.

I was commenting on her tendency to claim ownership of others posts and then take responses to those posts and act as if they were referencing her.

Heaven forbid we actual have brains and care about whether or not our finely made Chinese crap can kill us.

Yeah, I know. That would be almost as bad as understanding the concept of a statistical imbalance when comparing the incidences of illegality in industry between a country with over a billion people and a continent with less than half that (china vs north america). Of course there are going to many, many more instances of industrial fraud and coverups in china. Firstly they are an industrial economy, like very few western ones still are. Second they are a MASSIVE industrial economy, outstripping the U.S. and Europe combined in industrial goods output. I bet the beach has more rocks in it than your driveway too.

Do you know what those major corporations you listed outsource to Asia?

Largely assembly, though wafer production in china has gotten a lot better and LCD panel assembly is a rather difficult industrial task. Oh, did you want me to say grunt work?

Grunt work.

Oh, my bad.

The real work happens in the US where the education is viewed by these companies as higher.

Oh my. You don't know anything about the U.S. economy at all do you. Hmm. Here, i'll give you a big shiny picture.

Cheap labor is China's only real global resource, and cheap labor does cheap work with cheap and often unsafe materials.

Oh my. Hmm, lets handle this one too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity

This has been a problem in Chinese manufacturing for decades and it still is.

Do you realize that china has a larger middleclass than America has population? Chinas big issue is corruption and pollution, they are actually the fastest growing economy on the planet and are elevating their populaces real buying power (that nice link i gave) faster than any other country on the planet. Quite a feat considering they are one in six people on the planet.

I only jsut noticed this, but I would like to reply whether you care or not.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Now, go to Barnes & Noble and buy a copy of Upton Sinclair's _The Jungle_. Ask yourself why the Food & Drug Admin even exists. Or maybe see how KFC treats the chickens. Or the Amish raise puppies in their mills. Or read about why Steak N Shake grinds their meat onsite. Yeah, clearly, China is the only problem.

China's organization that does what our FDA does has more than a few issues. Primarily that they don't do their job.

Are you aware that Boeing has a lot of Chinese manufacturing done for them? Over a third of the entire Boeing fleet (4,000+ planes) uses Chinese-made parts. Think about that the next time you get on an airplane and what that means for "quality goods".

Maybe you should do some actual homework, rather than spouting grossly-ignorant stuff.

Allow me to clarify. Are all Chinese manufactured goods crap? No. I know that. There's a lot of good code that comes out of China. Some good hardware and technology too. Some things China actually can make well. Engineering and IT are booming in China, and China actual has a strong foundation to expand on these areas and they haven't been plagued by poor quality.

Consumer Goods however, are not same thing as parts for a plane. China has a horrible track record with consumer products, and its fairly clear for anyone who pays attention.

In any case, companies like Boeing, Sony, etc. use Chinese manufacturing because they can produce quality goods at a lower cost than Americans and Japanese. That's a fact.

I'm not saying they can't. I'm saying that there are more than a handful of cases where they just plain they don't.

Allow me to clarify. Are all Chinese manufactured goods crap? No. I know that. There's a lot of good code that comes out of China.

I'm not saying they can't. I'm saying that there are more than a handful of cases where they just plain they don't.

Cheap labor is China's only real global resource, and cheap labor does cheap work with cheap and often unsafe materials. This has been a problem in Chinese manufacturing for decades and it still is.

Backpedal Backpedal Backpedal Backpedal!

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah, I know. That would be almost as bad as understanding the concept of a statistical imbalance when comparing the incidences of illegality in industry between a country with over a billion people and a continent with less than half that (china vs north america). Of course there are going to many, many more instances of industrial fraud and coverups in china. Firstly they are an industrial economy, like very few western ones still are. Second they are a MASSIVE industrial economy, outstripping the U.S. and Europe combined in industrial goods output. I bet the beach has more rocks in it than your driveway too.

And thats a excuse? There's more of them so an increase in industrial disasters is acceptable? Forgive me if I find the weekly recall of potentially lethal products unacceptable no matter the volume of production when applied to comparison.

Largely assembly, though wafer production in china has gotten a lot better and LCD panel assembly is a rather difficult industrial task. Oh, did you want me to say grunt work?

Read my above post.

Oh my. You don't know anything about the U.S. economy at all do you. Hmm. Here, i'll give you a big shiny picture.



Oh my. Hmm, lets handle this one too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity

Do you realize that china has a larger middleclass than America has population? Chinas big issue is corruption and pollution, they are actually the fastest growing economy on the planet and are elevating their populaces real buying power (that nice link i gave) faster than any other country on the planet. Quite a feat considering they are one in six people on the planet.

Now who is quoting the news?

Do you know what most of China's GDP is? The export of consumer goods! Do you know what one of their biggest problems is other than corruption, pollution, and exhausting the world supply of concrete (yeah that's a weird one)? Those consumer goods being unsafe.

Corruption... Hmm. That would explain a few things.

EDIT: Have you looked at your chart? According to it China is more in services and agriculture than manufacturing. Probably has something to do with most of china actually still being a third world nation with all industry focused on the west coast. Oh wait. That throws you assumption that their six billion folks are all producing goods out the window!

Backpedal Backpedal Backpedal Backpedal!

Heaven forbid I clarify. But hey last I checked, Cheap Labor is their biggest global resource! Cheap Labor can make a good product. But its also common that the same industries using cheap labor cut corners in production.

And the guys making plane parts, programming code, and developing hardware are hardly cheap labor. China can have more than one section of its economy. Cheap Labor is their big resource now but who knows. In a few years or a decade maybe they could have a huge engineering and IT sector going as the ground work they have continues to grow.

And thats a excuse? There's more of them so an increase in industrial disasters is acceptable? Forgive me if I find the weekly recall of potentially lethal products unacceptable no matter the volume of production when applied to comparison.

So you argue that a level of incidences total is what's important and not per capita? Meaning that a nation with something like /100 the population of china (say, zimbabwe) is a much better more excusable place, even though per capita it's goods are actually considerably more dangerous? Smart.

Read my above post.

Please read your post above that, where you say the exact opposite.

Do you know what most of China's GDP is? The export of consumer goods! Do you know what one of their biggest problems is other than corruption, pollution, and exhausting the world supply of concrete (yeah that's a weird one)? Those consumer goods being unsafe.

Not per capita, per unit sold, per unit produced, or per unit consume in the west. But then youre measuring things in total. You know, I bet the northern hemisphere is responsible for a lot more bad products than the southern one. Lets get everything produced in Brazil.

And the guys making plane parts, programming code, and developing hardware are hardly cheap labor. China can have more than one section of its economy. Cheap Labor is their big resource now but who knows. In a few years or a decade maybe they could have a huge engineering and IT sector going as the ground work they have continues to grow.

It's backpedaling when you change your stance entirely to try and seem more moderate after stating the exact opposite moments ago.

ShumaGorath wrote:So you argue that a level of incidences total is what's important and not per capita? Meaning that a nation with something like /100 the population of china (say, zimbabwe) is a much better more excusable place, even though per capita it's goods are actually considerably more dangerous? Smart.

Read this. I edited it in so you probably missed it.

EDIT: Have you looked at your chart? According to it China is more in agriculture and services and manufacturing are equal. Probably has something to do with most of china actually still being a third world nation with all industry focused on the west coast. Oh wait. That throws you assumption that their six billion folks are all producing goods out the window!

A lot of China lives in anarchy. The further east you go, the less of an influence of chinese government you find. Most of China's development is focused in the west, which actually is not that much larger in population compared to the US. Most of those 6,000,000,000 people are not manufacturing anything. They're farming. China's largest city is half the population of New York City. Granted they have a lot of large cities, but the urban areas of China are not very large in populations, and most industry is in these areas and around them.

EDIT: I just lol'd at myself. Did I actually put 6 billion in there XD.

Please read your post above that, where you say the exact opposite.

Read more carefully. The two are not mutually exclusive statements, nor are they exact opposites.

China's largest global resource is the availability of cheap labor. China has a growing IT and Engineering field that is in fact not cheap labor.

Last I checked, you can have both. India is much the same way, but I have little knowledge of the manufacturing record of India. Good programmers (They're more on the hardware side I think. CHina is more on the software) coming from there though and a lot of good engineering.

You know, I bet the northern hemisphere is responsible for a lot more bad products than the southern one.

Sure. Lets go off on a tangent. Looking at this thread we already have- Oh wait. That's an easy comparison. Most of South America still lives in the third world. Only a few of the nations there have an industry to speak of!

@John Hwangg
I was apologising for the length of the post. I will only apologise for my opinion if I am proven "wrong by intellectual dishonesty." I expect nothing more from anyone else.

LordofHats wrote:Probably has something to do with most of china actually still being a third world nation with all industry focused on the west coast. Oh wait. That throws you assumption that their six billion folks are all producing goods out the window!

China has no west coast.

Why are you talking about 6 billion people? I think you need to calm down and see this issue from a rational perspective.

LordofHats wrote:
Cheap Labor is their big resource now but who knows. In a few years or a decade maybe they could have a huge engineering and IT sector going as the ground work they have continues to grow.

In order to do that they need to advance through the cheap labor phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:
A lot of China lives in anarchy. The further east you go, the less of an influence of chinese government you find.

That's backwards. You mean west, not east.

LordofHats wrote:
Most of China's development is focused in the west, which actually is not that much larger in population compared to the US.

Wrong on both counts. Reverse each statement.

LordofHats wrote:
China's largest city is half the population of New York City.

Shanghai is larger than New York.

LordofHats wrote:
China's largest global resource is the availability of cheap labor. China has a growing IT and Engineering field that is in fact not cheap labor.

If they are cheaper than Western equivalents, then they are cheap labor.

LordofHats wrote:
Toys containing lead and various other toxic chemicals. Baby food containing arsenic. Melamine in pet food (and in Baby Formula I might add as well). Toothpaste made with freak'n anti-freeze.

I think I have more than a few legs to stand on when claiming the inferiority of product. No one outsources the production of quality goods to China. We do get what we pay for, and its cheaply made and there are still a great many accusations of China making things containing toxins.

Chinese manufacture what outsourcers ask them to. If asked to do quality work, they can do that. It's just that most Western companies which order stuff from them, want the products to be as cheap as possible to gain competive edge on the markets. Of course there is going to be quality issues then.

Do you remember how the lead toy controversy ended? It turned out that the toys had lead paint...because Mattel - an American company - had given such specifications to Chinese factories. Oooops.

It's funny, the GFC (among other things) is causing so many western country currencies to go downhill, so after decades of outsourcing production lines to China, and with China doing so comparably well, it's actually becoming expensive to have items produced over there.

Well, not funny I suppose, but ironic.

dogma wrote:China has no west coast.
Why are you talking about 6 billion people? I think you need to calm down and see this issue from a rational perspective.

Good point. I'm actually laughing myself silly right now. Come on. Admit it. YOu chuckled.

Just replace west with east and and that 6 with a 1.

In order to do that they need to advance through the cheap labor phase.

They're probably gonna get out of it in the coming decade. Before the recession wages were rising and other fields were advancing. The recession set them back but recessions don't last forever.

That's backwards. You mean west, not east.

I actually do that quite frequently. Surprisingly I never confuse left and right. Just east and west. I blame the alphabet. E is on the left and W is on the right so I think when I see the words thats the way I want to think of it.

Shanghai is larger than New York.

So it is. I must have been really wacked out last night.

If they are cheaper than Western equivalents, then they are cheap labor.

Yes but the individuals doing that work aren't making pennies like the folks making Hasbro toys. They're skilled labor, often with college degrees. They make much more money, and will probably make even more as time advances. And its not that they're cheaper just because you can pay them less. Over in China the companies hiring them don't have to provide healthcare benefits, which actually saves company's a lot of money. Plus, not all of China's IT field is outsourced. A lot of it is home grown, which is good for China.

LeperMessiah wrote:This, except that you need hobby stores (GW or not) to demo the game, as that's how it infects new players. Every damn one of us on the board was won over by seeing little toy soldiers on a tabletop or display case or a friend's house, not by perusing the GW website.

I didn't hear about it in any of those ways and where the nearest GW is now in the mall it was nothing but a huge empty area of grass and mud. Now it's an extension of the nearby mall, which is also attached to the train station. Me and my friend heard about them and were lucky enough to find a FLGS nearby that didn't even advertise. So basically I started the game out of luck

But, yeah the GW stores are alright, gives you somewhere to play if it is the most easy to get to place and keeps the game going I guess. If anything, if GW moves all production to China all that will happen is that their profit margins will become bigger. It'll stay the same price for us, and they'll get even more money

JohnHwangDD wrote:

BigBaDaBoom wrote:Chances are, having something made in China could decrease the quality of the product. I have seen it happen. Then not only would people moan that the product was expensive, they would also moan that the product was inferior.

You mean like all of the Japanese-branded electronic whatnots, along with all of the American-branded computer whatnots? Chinese quality is easily on par with anything else in the world, provided that the buyer is willing to pay for the quality. If you ask for the lowest price, you will get lower quality goods. If you are willing to pay a little bit more for world-class quality, you will get it. That said, I would further imagine that, dollar-for-dollar or time-scaled from start of industry, Chinese manufacturing produces far higher quality goods than anything ever mass-produced in the United States or United Kingdom since the start of the Industrial Revolution. To blame the manufacturer for building to the spec they are paid for, rather than spending more to build to a tolerance above spec is unreasonable.

I only said that based on personal experience with manufacturers in China. It has been my personal experience that some products produced in China verses the same products produced in the USA were inferior in quality. Now I understand this does not hold true for everything... but were I work we have customers that complain if something is made in China (for both ethical reasons and quality reasons), but they are not willing to pay the price for something made the USA or the UK. For a lot of companies they are caught in a catch 22 situation. *shrug*

Since we are discussing this, I have a PRS style semi-hollowbody guitar made in Thailand and it is ceraintly a high-quality instrument. I'm not sure if thats directly relevant, but worht noting.

Lanrak wrote:Hi LeperMessiah.
GW is the ONLY company that say they 'need' a chain of B&M stores to sell its overpriced products in.Everone else competes in the open market with far lower overheads, so they can offer better value for money.

The out of the 3 million gamers world wide, less than 20% have been through the GW wallet rape experiance.(These figures are approximate .)

The Perry Twins sell boxes of exelent quality multipart multipose 28mm figures for £15.(Perry Minatures.)
They have 32 to 26 infantry or 15 cavalry per box!

Would you buy 10 Space marines for £5 , online?From a web link in computer games like DoW, BattleMarch etc... and free to down load rules..

In the modern retail market , most non main stream retailers maximise the potential of the cost effective internet .GW dismissed it as a 'passing fad' and 15 year later only manage 10 to 12 % of sales online.

If you use the B&M stores than by all means buy from them.But if you dont get free advice and a regular place to play why pay for those that do!

You misunderstand my point. GW doesn't need its own stores per se, but the hobby as a whole needs HOBBY STORES so that the games can be played and displayed. That open market you talk about is largely riding the coattails of the work GW has done in creating this marketplace. If you eliminate too much of the B&M presence (and again, these don't need to be GW stores, but just general game stores that support GW products), the market dries up. You need places to play and expose new customers to the products. You need other players to play and tables with terrain. Those "secondary" functions of the stores are where their true value is. Make no mistake, I shop online and get my 20-30% off. But I play at a store and I support that store through the occasional purchase or tournament fee because that's important to the hobby network.

To the original question of China, GW already manufactures in China and already gets stuff as cheap as they can. There's an established price point and demand, so even if some fictional place developed where they could be manufactured cheaper, they would not pass any cost reduction on to the consumer. Are Nikes cheaper because they're made in China? Capitalism is based upon making things as cost-effectively as possible and selling at the highest price point the market will bear. If they lowered prices it would be because the market turned and their previous retail price any longer; there's never another incentive to sell lower.

LeperMessiah: Well said

LeperMessiah wrote:Are Nikes cheaper because they're made in China?

Well yes and no. Nike branded shoes sell for craploads of money for a moderate increase in qualityu over cheaper brands. However, Nike owns cheaper brands too. It has presence in both markets.

Think of it like cars. GM sells expensive cars and cheap ones. They sell them as different brands, but they have a presence in all markets. The price of high end shoes isn't affected, because that model is built on lower sales and higher profit margin.

however, it certainly lowers the price of lower quality shoes, and less well known brands.

I realise that this may nt apply to GW since I am not looking at their market research, but it is POSSIBLE for lower production cost to lower prices, even if their is no market competition to speak of.