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If so, go for it.

Didn't you notice the words "made in china" on some plastic boxes of GW?
Plus, most codices get printed there.

So, what is left to move there? Should be your question....

My Leman Russ Demolisher wasn't!

Hi all.
If you want GW to drop the RRP of thier products , simply let them move to Online sales only, without the B&M stores 'millstone' they could cut current prices between 50% and 80 % !

Lanrak wrote:Hi all.
If you want GW to drop the RRP of thier products , simply let them move to Online sales only, without the B&M stores 'millstone' they could cut current prices between 50% and 80 % !

This, except that you need hobby stores (GW or not) to demo the game, as that's how it infects new players. Every damn one of us on the board was won over by seeing little toy soldiers on a tabletop or display case or a friend's house, not by perusing the GW website.

Hi LeperMessiah.
GW is the ONLY company that say they 'need' a chain of B&M stores to sell its overpriced products in.Everone else competes in the open market with far lower overheads, so they can offer better value for money.

The out of the 3 million gamers world wide, less than 20% have been through the GW wallet rape experiance.(These figures are approximate .)

The Perry Twins sell boxes of exelent quality multipart multipose 28mm figures for £15.(Perry Minatures.)
They have 32 to 26 infantry or 15 cavalry per box!

Would you buy 10 Space marines for £5 , online?From a web link in computer games like DoW, BattleMarch etc... and free to down load rules..

In the modern retail market , most non main stream retailers maximise the potential of the cost effective internet .GW dismissed it as a 'passing fad' and 15 year later only manage 10 to 12 % of sales online.

If you use the B&M stores than by all means buy from them.But if you dont get free advice and a regular place to play why pay for those that do!

Lanrak wrote:Hi LeperMessiah.
GW is the ONLY company that say they 'need' a chain of B&M stores to sell its overpriced products in.Everone else competes in the open market with far lower overheads, so they can offer better value for money.

The out of the 3 million gamers world wide, less than 20% have been through the GW wallet rape experiance.(These figures are approximate .)

The Perry Twins sell boxes of exelent quality multipart multipose 28mm figures for £15.(Perry Minatures.)
They have 32 to 26 infantry or 15 cavalry per box!

Would you buy 10 Space marines for £5 , online?From a web link in computer games like DoW, BattleMarch etc... and free to down load rules..

In the modern retail market , most non main stream retailers maximise the potential of the cost effective internet .GW dismissed it as a 'passing fad' and 15 year later only manage 10 to 12 % of sales online.

If you use the B&M stores than by all means buy from them.But if you dont get free advice and a regular place to play why pay for those that do!

I use Ebay for some miniatures.

The topic should be called "Would GW save themselves money if they moved production to China?" The answer is yes and they have already done so [to several things]. I don't see any lower prices in my store, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

If you compare prices of model kit makers, say Airfix (which has moved production to China) and Revell (which hasn't), then the Chinese-produced ones are cheaper, by 20-30% or so.

Kind of a silly question, IMO.

GW saves *themselves* money when they move production to China.

They don't save *you* any money.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Kind of a silly question, IMO.

GW saves *themselves* money when they move production to China.

They don't save *you* any money.

Not true. The math can very easily work out so that the increased sales from lower prices easily counter-act the decreased profit. Lower costs increase that profit margine and increase inscentive to reduce prices and increase sales.

Did that make sense? (I'm trying to explain things that I learned in Economics class a year ago. its a little hazy.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also clarify that I don't support moving any production to China for ethical, political and philosophical rasons. However, thats not really the point.

I believe his point was that gw doesnt care? no business that can get away with charging x will charge less than it just because their manufacturing costs have fallen ... thats just increased revenue.

nintendoeats wrote:Not true. The math can very easily work out so that the increased sales from lower prices easily counter-act the decreased profit. Lower costs increase that profit margine and increase inscentive to reduce prices and increase sales.

I think most people are aware of this but it's simply not GW's strategy. They have the "put the prices up and squeeze the market for what it will bear" approach and have their head down and are running with it. Every time they think profits could be improved or there is some issue, they whack up the prices. This has been their business model for some time now, and I think it will continue to run as such until they find that no one is buying the product, then they won't know what to do.

And to the OP, they could reduce costs if they moved all operations to China but they won't pass any of it onto you. That's the point of reducing production costs, to increase the profit margin without having to tinker with the sales end of the business.

Deleted. Weird double post?

mon-keigh slayer wrote:I believe his point was that gw doesnt care? no business that can get away with charging x will charge less than it just because their manufacturing costs have fallen ... thats just increased revenue.

Ok, I'm going to try to run the math to explain this, Bear with me, its been a while since Iv'e done this stuff.

You have your marginal cost and fixed cost. Margnial cost is the additional cost per thing manufactured, fixed cost is stuff (accounting, marketing, that junk) that doesn't change meaningfully based on how much you sell.

So, we can do some VERY basic math. Lets say that GW only sells boxes of 10 ork boys, and you can never have too many ork boyz (the second part of that sentence is true, but the point si I'm just tyring to keep the math simple. Ork Boyz represent the whole range of 40k products)

All of the following figures are utterly made up as an example.

The fixed cost of the company is $200,000, so whatever happens they need to make at least that much money, on top of the margnial cost of each sale.
The marginal cost to make a box of boyz is $10
If they charge 15 dollars to sell a box of Boyz they will sell 35,000, a total revenue of $450,000.
The margnial cost ($10) times the number made (30,000) is $300,000. Add the fixed cost and you get $525,000.
This makes a profit of $25,000. These numbers represent the intersection point of the supply and demand curves (more complicated than I want to get into right now) for warhammer mdels, so this is the most money that GW could make at a marginal cost of 10 dollars.

However, If the margnial cost went down, say to 5 dollars, GW would want to lower their prices, because the supply curve would have changed substantially.

Now GW can afford to get all of that money from people who were unable or unwilling to pay 15 bucks for Boyz. Alot more people are willing to pay 11 dollars. Let us say that if GW charged 11 dollars they would sell 150,000 Boxs of Boyz, the new intersection point of the supply and demand curves.

It costs $750,000 to make all of those orks, making a total of $850,000 to produce everything. But the revenue is $1,650,000. Thats a profit of $800,000

If they had tried to sell the orks at 11 dollars before they would not have been able to cover both their marginal and fixed costs. But if they kept selling Boyz at 15 dollars they would only mkae a profit of $175,000.

Math Ends Here

Ok, so those numbers were totally made up, but thats more or less how basic free market economics work. Every industry has its quirks (some cars will sell better if they get REALLY expensive, see the "I am rich" iphone app) but this type of math is how the situation is ultimately defined. Sorry that took so long, but I had to make sure my numbers were internally consistent.

GW actually saves quiet a bit of money producing the models in their own factory/warehouse. The things they can't produce cheaper here, they outsource to other places.

I will say (working with manufacturers from all over the world in my line of work) you get what you pay for. Chances are, having something made in China could decrease the quality of the product. I have seen it happen. Then not only would people moan that the product was expensive, they would also moan that the product was inferior.

nintendoeats wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Kind of a silly question, IMO.

GW saves *themselves* money when they move production to China.

They don't save *you* any money.

Not true. The math can very easily work out so that the increased sales from lower prices easily counter-act the decreased profit. Lower costs increase that profit margine and increase inscentive to reduce prices and increase sales.

Did that make sense?

No, because it completely misses the point. GW isn't in the business of selling more product to the consumer. GW is in the business of making as much profit for *themselves* as possible. The very idea that GW would pass any actual, systemic savings back to the customer is completely ludicrous. It's as if you don't understand the nature of the company that you're talking about.

Now, if this were some other company that operated under different a conceptual model, they might do that. GW is no longer trying to build share by pushing volumes. GW would gladly give up 10% share to gain 5% profit, or give up 5% potential profit to lock in a 10% actual price premium - and they've clearly demonstrated their resolve on both of these points. So, while, as a consumer, you want GW to lower their prices in the hopes that they might get more share to offset this, as the number 1 volume seller, this is a risky proposition. GW has far more to lose on overall volume than they could gain via marginal market share growth.


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____

nintendoeats wrote:I should also clarify that I don't support moving any production to China for ethical, political and philosophical rasons.

Then simply don't buy things made in China. Pay a lot more for less choice. Enjoy your Amish life, because there is precious little that isn't made in China today.

BigBaDaBoom wrote:Chances are, having something made in China could decrease the quality of the product. I have seen it happen. Then not only would people moan that the product was expensive, they would also moan that the product was inferior.

You mean like all of the Japanese-branded electronic whatnots, along with all of the American-branded computer whatnots? Chinese quality is easily on par with anything else in the world, provided that the buyer is willing to pay for the quality. If you ask for the lowest price, you will get lower quality goods. If you are willing to pay a little bit more for world-class quality, you will get it. That said, I would further imagine that, dollar-for-dollar or time-scaled from start of industry, Chinese manufacturing produces far higher quality goods than anything ever mass-produced in the United States or United Kingdom since the start of the Industrial Revolution. To blame the manufacturer for building to the spec they are paid for, rather than spending more to build to a tolerance above spec is unreasonable.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

nintendoeats wrote:I should also clarify that I don't support moving any production to China for ethical, political and philosophical rasons.

Then simply don't buy things made in China. Pay a lot more for less choice. Enjoy your Amish life, because there is precious little that isn't made in China today.

Your'e response highlights EXACTLY why it is that I don't want things moving to china. Gaining choice in variety of products reduces your choice of options between ethical and unethical to one. The fact that the world has problems is not a reason to sit back and accept them.

(Before you debate me on this topic I would remind you that, as my sig states, George Owell is my hero. I am not speaking from the hip here.)

FWIW, I'm not speaking from the hip, here, either. Nor do I much care to "debate", as it's completely pointless.

I didn't say to accept problems, I *did* tell you not to support Chinese manufactured goods if that's how you feel. Ultimately, if enough people feel this way, things will change. However, I think you have even less luck boycotting China than the GW-haters have against GW. In any case, complaining on the Internet won't solve anything, either.

As I see it, there isn't anything inherently unethical about buying from a Chinese manufacturer, any moreso than from an American one. You'll have a very difficult time convincing me of any moral superiority held by American or British firms. So why the hate on China, I can't imagine. Based on what I see on the Internet, the whole "no-China" thing seems incredibly emotional, based on ignorance and racism, with more than a little helping of hypocrisy folded in.

And presuming that India ever gets their act together, we're going to hate on them? Or the Russians?

OTOH, if you want to explain why you think there's an *actual* ethical decision being made, perhaps you can start up a new thread Off Topic. If you do this, I'd be very curious to see what you have to say. I certainly hope it won't be more of the ignorant, race-baiting ranting I've seen of late.


Note: I'm not mad at you, nor am I accusing you of anything. Tho in general, I am getting very tired of the anti-China nonsense. It's very much the same anti-Japan stuff we had decades before. And so on. If there's a coherent argument or position, I'd like to understand it. Thanks.

JohnHwangDD wrote:FWIW, I'm not speaking from the hip, here, either. Nor do I much care to "debate", as it's completely pointless.

I didn't say to accept problems, I *did* tell you not to support Chinese manufactured goods if that's how you feel. Ultimately, if enough people feel this way, things will change. However, I think you have even less luck boycotting China than the GW-haters have against GW. In any case, complaining on the Internet won't solve anything, either.

As I see it, there isn't anything inherently unethical about buying from a Chinese manufacturer, any moreso than from an American one. You'll have a very difficult time convincing me of any moral superiority held by American or British firms. So why the hate on China, I can't imagine. Based on what I see on the Internet, the whole "no-China" thing seems incredibly emotional, based on ignorance and racism, with more than a little helping of hypocrisy folded in.

And presuming that India ever gets their act together, we're going to hate on them? Or the Russians?

OTOH, if you want to explain why you think there's an *actual* ethical decision being made, perhaps you can start up a new thread Off Topic. If you do this, I'd be very curious to see what you have to say. I certainly hope it won't be more of the ignorant, race-baiting ranting I've seen of late.

Done. I apologise in advance.

nintendo , GW will never lower pricing on their product even if they do save money on mass producing in China.
@OP yes they for sure will save money , and fast.
They'll consider it as profit and nothing else.

Your'e response highlights EXACTLY why it is that I don't want things moving to china. Gaining choice in variety of products reduces your choice of options between ethical and unethical to one. The fact that the world has problems is not a reason to sit back and accept them.

I'm glad a country that holds one in every six people on the planet isn't worth sending jobs too because of a confused ethical system supported obliquely by george orwell.

No, because it completely misses the point. GW isn't in the business of selling more product to the consumer. GW is in the business of making as much profit for *themselves* as possible. The very idea that GW would pass any actual, systemic savings back to the customer is completely ludicrous. It's as if you don't understand the nature of the company that you're talking about.

If, at any time, games workshop finds it is in the best interest of their business to lower prices then they will. They are a business, not a charity, and if sales volume drops unacceptably and the culprit is found to be pricing metrics than they will scale back their prices to follow suit. Stop grandstanding and pretending that games workshops only drive is to wring its hands while floating on a sea of whiny nerds money. They are no different than any other corporation.

nintendo , GW will never lower pricing on their product even if they do save money on mass producing in China.

Please either learn something about economics and business or stop posting in threads pertaining to it. You never say never about prices, they are beholden to so many factors that it's almost idiotic to state an absolute position. A simple change in exchange rates could see a product rising or lowering in price dramatically and quickly (such as how forge world razorbacks became less expensive than standard GW ones during the pounds notable drop in 2008).


Regardless this thread should be locked. It's no different than a thread asking if it would be cold if the sun somehow stopped being in the sky for a while.

JohnHwangDD wrote:OTOH, if you want to explain why you think there's an *actual* ethical decision being made, perhaps you can start up a new thread Off Topic. If you do this, I'd be very curious to see what you have to say. I certainly hope it won't be more of the ignorant, race-baiting ranting I've seen of late.

Toys containing lead and various other toxic chemicals. Baby food containing arsenic. Melamine in pet food (and in Baby Formula I might add as well). Toothpaste made with freak'n anti-freeze.

I think I have more than a few legs to stand on when claiming the inferiority of product. No one outsources the production of quality goods to China. We do get what we pay for, and its cheaply made and there are still a great many accusations of China making things containing toxins.

Toys containing lead and various other toxic chemicals. Baby food containing arsenic. Melamine in pet food. Toothpaste made with freak'n anti-freeze.

I'm glad five incidents you saw on TV (several of which ended up with the perpetrators being executed) makes it unethical to buy goods produced in china, a country containing 18% of the world population. You know whats terrible? Goodyear tires had blowouts a few years ago, American tires are unethical. You know terrible? Freddie and Fanny over leveraging and contributing heavily to a recession that has caused millions to lose their jobs world wide. Buying American products is unethical.

I think I have more than a few legs to stand on when claiming the inferiority of product.

I somehow doubt that, but go ahead, lay it on me.

No one outsources the production of quality goods to China. We do get what we pay for, and its cheaply made and there are still a great many accusations of China making things containing toxins.

Except sony, intel, Samsung, Volkswagon, umm lessee Apple, Microsoft, Toyota, too and uhh.. Hmm.. Moen, LG, Prada, Nike.. I'll think of a couple thousand more, gimme a few minutes. How about you start working up a list of chinese companies selling poisonous products to us while I'm doing this.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Please either learn something about economics and business or stop posting in threads pertaining to it. You never say never about prices.

You know , i was thinking the same thing

ShumaGorath wrote:I'm glad five incidents you saw on TV (several of which ended up with the perpetrators being executed) makes it unethical to buy goods produced in china, a country containing 18% of the world population. You know whats terrible? Goodyear tires had blowouts a few years ago, American tires are unethical. You know terrible? Freddie and Fanny over leveraging and contributing heavily to a recession that has caused millions to lose their jobs world wide. Buying American products is unethical..

And please , dont assume the only incidents you saw on TV are the only incidents that happen.
Try watching asian news , you'll see like 2 products been on warning /recalled EVERYDAY.

Ethical or not , the danger its there.

LunaHound wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Please either learn something about economics and business or stop posting in threads pertaining to it. You never say never about prices.

You know , i was thinking the same thing

I'm glad to see we're in agreement. I could suggest some books for you to read if you wanted too.

And please , dont assume the only incidents you saw on TV are the only incidents that happen.
Try watching asian news , you'll see like 2 products been on warning /recalled EVERYDAY.

Ethical or not , the danger its there.

When every example was floated on fox news for weeks then I'm going to err on the safe side and just assume that the poster doesn't actually know much beyond what's been laid in front of them.

Ethical or not , the danger its there.

It's always amusing that people see to think it matters. Without low cost foreign labor mine and your lifestyle would be functionally impossible. Western capitalism requires foreign labor to function now. It's why we've become service economies, theres no money to be made in production. If china suddenly disappeared (along with taiwan, indonesia, mexico, india, and all of africa) then the western economies of the world would collapse as disposable items suddenly became prohibitively expensive.

ShumaGorath wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Please either learn something about economics and business or stop posting in threads pertaining to it. You never say never about prices.

You know , i was thinking the same thing

I'm glad to see we're in agreement. I could suggest some books for you to read if you wanted too.

That would be unnecessary as its probably not very good book.

ShumaGorath wrote:When every example was floated on fox news for weeks then I'm going to err on the safe side and just assume that the poster doesn't actually know much beyond what's been laid in front of them.

That was great for a laugh , i never realized Fox was a part of TVBS and NHK

Tell you what , rather then risking "insulting" you by debating with you ,
go ask your friends from Taiwan / Hong Kong / Japan / Singapore about how often China imports problem product into their country.
If their reply isnt "atleast 3 different products a week" you win!

nintendoeats wrote:Done. I apologise in advance.

You have nothing to apologize for. I'm sure you have your reasons, and if you posted them, I thank you in advance for taking the time to lay them out in some sort of rational fashion.

That would be unnecessary as its probably not very good book.

Probably not, it would be pretty dry with all the numbers and countries.

That was great for a laugh , i never realized Fox was a part of TVBS and NHK

And I'm glad you're posting under both your and LordofHats accounts. Otherwise how exactly would you know what his sources are?

JohnHwangDD wrote:

nintendoeats wrote:Done. I apologise in advance.

You have nothing to apologize for. I'm sure you have your reasons, and if you posted them, I thank you in advance for taking the time to lay them out in some sort of rational fashion.

Hey John , do you watch asian news?
Can you explain to shuma just how bad Chinese exports are to him?

He think its been blown out of proportion for some reason.


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ShumaGorath wrote:And I'm glad you're posting under both your and LordofHats accounts. Otherwise how exactly would you know what his sources are?

There is nothing else i can say to that other than
*face palm. why? source?

ANYONE that keep track of news in asia know how bad its going on there with China.
wow i cant believe this seriously.

Get someone to translate this for you shuma , till then i dont think you'll listen to anything people tell you , unbelievable.