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Really hoping that some of this isn't true, I have a 3k+ BA army, and don't really think that the new out-of-nowhere emphasis on Dreads is a great idea. Some of the new character rumours sound awful (that Victor guy in particular), and if we're losing Razorbacks and Rending on Death Company (heard this on Warseer, I think) then I won't be happy.
There's some good stuff there, like Mephiston's statline, but neither the rumoured new units or the psychic powers appeal to me at all (possible exception for Exalted, depending on the models).
I guess I'll do the usual and reserve judgement until the Codex is in my hands, maybe I'll like it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/20 18:57:47
Blood Angels 2nd/5th Company (5,400+)
The Wraithkind (4,100+)
George Spiggott wrote:Am I the only one that thinks vampire Space Marines riding giant vampire wolves is an awesome idea?
That would be awesome. But could it be more awesome? What if they were surfing on hover-coffins with big capes billowing behind them and poofy power armored collars and cuffs? The latest vampire fans don't associate them with animals anymore. Cyborg bats might be a little bit too Green Goblin, and that would be silly.
Klawz-Ramming is a subset of citrus fruit?
Gwar- "And everyone wants a bigger Spleen!"
Mercurial wrote:
I admire your aplomb and instate you as Baron of the Seas and Lord Marshall of Privateers.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Star Trek also said we'd have X-Wings by now. We all see how that prediction turned out.
Orkeosaurus, on homophobia, the nature of homosexuality, and the greatness of George Takei.
English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark alleyways and mugs them for loose grammar.
Ouze wrote:So does anyone know what this flying land raider thing is going to look like, exactly?
The fluff for it apparently says in the past the Imperium's record keepers mistakenly thought they were Thunderhawks, they probably look similar to a thunderhawk but smaller with fewer weapons. I speculate the rumor originators comment of it being a "landraider" is because it has an assault ramp and similar weapons, twinlinked lascannons.
My guess it'll be something like this:
Awesome concept. If its anything like that, I'll probably pick one up for the cool factor, regardless if other chapters can use it.
JohnHwangDD wrote:A Dread is just a big metal box. You can put anything in that box.
Yes, but the marine stuck in that box is not always entirely there. They were injured or they were practically dead, and now they're wired in. Not entirely of sound mind.
Dreadnought and Venerable dreadnoughts were already representative of a Commander-Chaplain-Librarian-Sergeant that has become entombed.
The lack of abilities of those dreadnoughts is because an entombed commander doesn't have enough know with all to give orders, a chaplain can't curse up his storm, and a Librarian use his psyker powers... most of the time they'd only have half a mind.
Are there exceptions, yes. It boils down to this shouldn't be more than a special character, not an excuse to have standardly available Dreadnoughts shooting lightning, teleport across the table, or become even more resilient due to a psionic force field.
The "not of sound mind" Dreads are the Chaos boxes.
I don't see Venerables as HQ types, more as boxes that have been sitting around for a long time.
If the Librarian isn't quite there, does it really make sense to turn a box into a giant, armored Chaos portal? Are Marines really that stupid? That said, I'd love to see a Daemonically-possessed, non-crabby box with Magic!
Most Marine boxes are relatively new, so they're sane enough. Otherwise, they'd be Crazed!. But no reason for there not to be Special Characters in boxes, like Moriar and Bjorn.
Not of sound mind as in... being blown to pieces and having your damaged body and brain hooked up to a machine leaves one a little slowed. Not crazy but lacking full cognitive capabilities. Putting a Librarian into a dreadnought sounds like how they make Defilers. The process of becoming a dreadnought is was deminishes the marine, Chapters like the Iron Hands have more dreadnoughts because they've perfected the melding of brain with machine. I doubt the Blood Angels have been as devoted.
Not of sound mind as in... being blown to pieces and having your damaged body and brain hooked up to a machine leaves one a little slowed.
Sorry but this isn't backed up by the background material at all. The Horus Heresy books even have Dreadnoughts perhaps much more sane than their battle brothers. The Emperor's Children Dreadnought for example who was discussing his own Legion's fall from grace with Loken of the Luna Wolves, and as Dan Abnett revealed about the upcoming book the Dreadnought (can't remember his name) saved Loken from certain death during the orbital bombardment by taking Loken's body to a bunker (IIRC).
Bjorn of the Space Wolves is a truly ancient Dreadnought and he is capable of making battle strategies and sits in a council of Wolf Lords whenever awake. Let's not even get into Iron Hands, where every company captain would like to be a Dreadnought, and some are.
I'm sorry but there are simply countless examples of loyalist Dreadnoughts being glorious commanders and individuals everyone around them revere and respect. JohnHwangDD is right about this one. I think a fully active Librarian being encased in a Dreadnought suit is a nice addition to the game and the background material. No doubt he has to be one heroic individual and the suit warded with all sorts of protection against daemonic invaders.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2010/01/20 20:08:03
Not of sound mind as in... being blown to pieces and having your damaged body and brain hooked up to a machine leaves one a little slowed.
Sorry but this isn't backed up by the background material at all. The Horus Heresy books even have Dreadnoughts perhaps much more sane than their battle brothers. The Emperor's Children Dreadnought for example who was discussing his own Legion's fall from grace with Loken of the Luna Wolves, and as Dan Abnett revealed about the upcoming book the Dreadnought (can't remember his name) saved Loken from certain death during the orbital bombardment by taking Loken's body to a bunker (IIRC).
Bjorn of the Space Wolves is a truly ancient Dreadnought and he is capable of making battle strategies and sits in a council of Wolf Lords whenever awake. Let's not even get into Iron Hands, where every company captain would like to be a Dreadnought, and some are.
I'm sorry but there are simply countless examples of loyalist Dreadnoughts being heroic commanders and individuals everyone around them revere and respect. JohnHwangDD is right about this one. I think a fully active Librarian being encased in a Dreadnought suit is a nice addition to the game and the background material. No doubt he had to be one heroic individual and the suit warded with all sorts of protection against daemonic invaders.
In Space marine codex there is a dreadnought which takes over command from Sicarius when he gets injured and is sane. Also in the Space Wolf codex it says that they just sleep until awoken so they don't just sit there slipping into insanity like the chaos ones (they too spiky to sleep )
"You call yourselves true warriors, with your palaces and fountains, your medals and parades? I grasped my first axe when I was still in my birth-caul. I earned my first wolfskin when I was still a whelp. I've been fighting every single day of my life, son. Perhaps you're today's challenge, Eh?
-Vorek Gnarlfist of the Iron Wolves
Emperors Faithful wrote:Frying Pan 40,000 (Defeating the enemies of the Imperium, one delicious recepie at a time! )
There's just a few problems with Librarian Dreadnoughts.
#1) Dreadnoughts have no Ld statistic. So, will GW give this specific Dreadnought a Ld statistic solely for psychic tests?
#2) Having no W characteristic, what happens when a Librarian Dread suffers a Perils of the Warp attack? Takes an automatic strength X hit based on the psychic power used?
Man, I wish there was a real Black Library where I could get a Black Library Card and take out Black Library Books without having to buy them. Of course, late fees would be your soul. But it would be worth it. - InquisitorMack
Not of sound mind as in... being blown to pieces and having your damaged body and brain hooked up to a machine leaves one a little slowed.
Sorry but this isn't backed up by the background material at all. The Horus Heresy books even have Dreadnoughts perhaps much more sane than their battle brothers. The Emperor's Children Dreadnought for example who was discussing his own Legion's fall from grace with Loken of the Luna Wolves, and as Dan Abnett revealed about the upcoming book the Dreadnought (can't remember his name) saved Loken from certain death during the orbital bombardment by taking Loken's body to a bunker (IIRC).
Bjorn of the Space Wolves is a truly ancient Dreadnought and he is capable of making battle strategies and sits in a council of Wolf Lords whenever awake. Let's not even get into Iron Hands, where every company captain would like to be a Dreadnought, and some are.
I'm sorry but there are simply countless examples of loyalist Dreadnoughts being glorious commanders and individuals everyone around them revere and respect. JohnHwangDD is right about this one. I think a fully active Librarian being encased in a Dreadnought suit is a nice addition to the game and the background material. No doubt he has to be one heroic individual and the suit warded with all sorts of protection against daemonic invaders.
Death By Monkeys wrote:There's just a few problems with Librarian Dreadnoughts.
#1) Dreadnoughts have no Ld statistic. So, will GW give this specific Dreadnought a Ld statistic solely for psychic tests?
#2) Having no W characteristic, what happens when a Librarian Dread suffers a Perils of the Warp attack? Takes an automatic strength X hit based on the psychic power used?
My guesses:
1) They have a rule that the count as having Ld 9 or 10 for purposes of psychic tests. 9 perhaps because losing their body makes it a little harder for them to really focus the energy, but maybe being mostly just brain and random bits makes it easier to focus. No nose to start itching or something.
2) When they get Perils of the Warp the Dread suffers a Penetrating hit with a -1 on the roll on the table. Not likely to get wrecked, but possibly will lose control of weapons systems or the like. (If they wanted to get fancy, it would be a Glancing hit but with a cumlative +1 for every roll after the first. Probably too much book keeping though.)
It would be kind of neat to get a Str6 Force weapon instead of a DCCW on the guy. Seriously mess up some Tyranids, he would.
I really like the idea of Chaplain dreads too. Give all nearby units Stubborn or Furious Charge or something.
That would be awesome. But could it be more awesome? What if they were surfing on hover-coffins with big capes billowing behind them and poofy power armored collars and cuffs?
Therion wrote:Sorry but this isn't backed up by the background material at all. The Horus Heresy books even have Dreadnoughts perhaps much more sane than their battle brothers. The Emperor's Children Dreadnought for example who was discussing his own Legion's fall from grace with Loken of the Luna Wolves, and as Dan Abnett revealed about the upcoming book the Dreadnought (can't remember his name) saved Loken from certain death during the orbital bombardment by taking Loken's body to a bunker (IIRC).
Bjorn of the Space Wolves is a truly ancient Dreadnought and he is capable of making battle strategies and sits in a council of Wolf Lords whenever awake. Let's not even get into Iron Hands, where every company captain would like to be a Dreadnought, and some are.
I'm sorry but there are simply countless examples of loyalist Dreadnoughts being glorious commanders and individuals everyone around them revere and respect. JohnHwangDD is right about this one...
Two examples, doesn't constitute countless. First I said not of sound mind, in the diminished inteligence and cognitive sense. I also said that there are exceptions, but that those should be special characters and not an off the shelf unit. I don't really count the novels because the authors just write what they want and don't need to follow any pre-existing fluff. It comes down to how much of the poor marine was still "there" when he was entombed.
In most chapters the dreadnoughts are older than chapter master and captains, so if they are 100% themselves why wouldn't they be able to continue command in a permenant capacity? The simple fact is they aren't 100% themselves.
TheRavenWolf wrote:
In Space marine codex there is a dreadnought which takes over command from Sicarius when he gets injured and is sane. Also in the Space Wolf codex it says that they just sleep until awoken so they don't just sit there slipping into insanity like the chaos ones (they too spiky to sleep )
Its not about diminished sanity, its diminished capacity. On some level they become like servitors, just to a lesser extreme.
@ Death By Monkeys - Meh, I've got too much pride to stoop to playing a loyalist codex, and clearly I like whining too much as well
(But keep this on the DL: this weekend I had a serious go at making a CSM list using the wolf codex, and ended up backing down because I missed all my special weapons, weird toy troops, and cheap dreads with 3A base ...)
@ Therion - Good post man. I'd also note that in Daemon World the Violators CSM have a dread leader who a) doesn't flip out and shoot his peeps with his assault cannon (!), and b) can fly (or at least glide when jumping out of their possessed thunderhawk)
@ Wehr - Isn't there a rule that non-chaos power armor books have to have mostly functional units, some of which just happen to cost a bit much? Combine that with the Bloody Angels of Blood being decidedly UBER, and I'm guessing he takes psychic tests @ Ld 10, and either ignores PotW straight out or just takes a glancing hit. Oh, and maybe a hood that works on the whole field, like old times? Dreadnought power plant boost
Also dude, reach for the stars: force DCCWftw!
Annnd you know there's a FW chappy dread, right? I forget what his badassness buffs his boys with, but he certainly looks hella cool.
- Salvage
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/20 21:30:20
Other posters have mentioned more examples, and I could dig up a few more too. You however have only refered to some abstract 'old fluff' with no citations whatsoever where you're getting your information from while trying to discredit the biggest source of 40K background material, the Black Library.
Boss_Salvage wrote:(But keep this on the DL: this weekend I had a serious go at making a CSM list using the wolf codex
Do like me and make a DIY chapter of your own and convert the models suitably. That way you can play them as whatever loyalist codex you want whenever you want, or even CSM if your collection of models is large enough. I bet there are a lot of 'borderline' traitor/loyalist Space Marine chapters that could fall under either army book.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/01/20 21:50:33
The thing is, if Razorbacks do stick around, and for that matter, everything else in the Vanilla Marine codex. Well then, it would make sense for everyone to run the new BA codex, rather than the standard codex.
You want exalted? You want Furioso, Baal pred, Ass. Marines as troops, Tyco etc? Expect some SM codex stuff to disappear...
Just sayin' is all. You can't expect everything from both the BA and standard SM codex...
Blood Angel FOC is divergant from the Ultramarine one:
-Dreadnoughts are heavy support.
-Furioso Dreads with droppods are fast attack.
-Twin scout entries are both elites, but one is scoring.
-Only dedicated ground transport is the Rhino (Razorbacks are out)
-Assault Squad and Tactical Squad are troops.
-Honour Guard can be troops if fielded with Dante.
-Jump pack units are in every FOC category except heavy support and HQ:
--Assault Squad - troops
--Honour Guard - elites
--Exalted - fast attack
Death Company is 0-1 and doesn't need a slot in the FOC
Units Rules
Tantalus Lander is a dedicated transport for everything in the army except tanks, Land Speeders and Exalted. Its weaponry is: 2 twin-linked assault cannons, 1 twin-linked special weapon.
Land Raider: Redeemer, Crusader and Standard
Terminator sergeants can get close combat wargear. There is a Terminator upgrade to allow shooting in an enemy phase.
Exalted: jump troops, hit & run, furious charge, no red fury/combat tactics, power armor, stormbolter, power weapon, bolt pistol, no options, no transports.
Erasmus: Furious charge, digital weapons (rending), master crafted combi melta: 18" S:8 AP:1 Assault 1, melta, reroll to hit, 4+ ward save, can chose one set of special rules:
-squad ignores red fury
-red fury and preferred enemy
-rage and feel no pain
More potent versions of Might of heroes, Transfixing Gaze and Blood Stasis powers:
The gun of Victor's servitor is 36" S:6 AP:6 Assault6
Psychic Powers
Quickening: Infantry moves as beasts, jump troops and walkers gain fleet.
Blood Stasis: 5" vortex of blood in base contact. Enemy models count as being in difficult terrain, and suffer one wound if they try to move and any of the distance dice shows a 1, Mephiston: can cast it in close combat centered on himself, and enemies attacking with a 1 suffer a wound.
Might of Heroes: one model in squad gets +D3 attacks, Mephiston: can cast it on himself.
Primarchs Grace: Squad may reroll dangerous terrain tests.
Transfixing Gaze: Target model must take a leadership roll off or not able to attack librarian, Mephiston: not able to attack any model.
Living Darkness: A template which blocks line of sight.
Fluff
Background: mainly Blood Angels and 4 successor chapters with one page each:
-Blood Consuls
-Angels Sanguine
-Flesh Tearers
-Angels Vermillion
I removed the unit stats to protect the inno...IP. Also courtesy of various french, italian and german sites and a wee bit o warseer.
As if on cue, you hear two people singing from the stairwell, and the door is opened and a pair of very smelly, very dirty guardsmen stumble in, completely drunk, and covered in vomit, and immediately collapse unconsious on the porch. You drag them to their beds, realising that they will not be waking up for some time.
Not of sound mind as in... being blown to pieces and having your damaged body and brain hooked up to a machine leaves one a little slowed.
Sorry but this isn't backed up by the background material at all. The Horus Heresy books even have Dreadnoughts perhaps much more sane than their battle brothers. The Emperor's Children Dreadnought for example who was discussing his own Legion's fall from grace with Loken of the Luna Wolves, and as Dan Abnett revealed about the upcoming book the Dreadnought (can't remember his name) saved Loken from certain death during the orbital bombardment by taking Loken's body to a bunker (IIRC).
Bjorn of the Space Wolves is a truly ancient Dreadnought and he is capable of making battle strategies and sits in a council of Wolf Lords whenever awake. Let's not even get into Iron Hands, where every company captain would like to be a Dreadnought, and some are.
I'm sorry but there are simply countless examples of loyalist Dreadnoughts being glorious commanders and individuals everyone around them revere and respect. JohnHwangDD is right about this one. I think a fully active Librarian being encased in a Dreadnought suit is a nice addition to the game and the background material. No doubt he has to be one heroic individual and the suit warded with all sorts of protection against daemonic invaders.
AH FFS, thx for the frakkin spoiler, jesus...
It's not really a spoiler, most of the info and names he mentions are entirely wrong :p
It's not really a spoiler, most of the info and names he mentions are entirely wrong :p
Are they really? Which names are those? The name of Dan Abnett? The name of the Luna Wolf character in question? Did I spell Bjorn wrong? Should it be Björn? The only other name I mentioned was JohnHwangDD. Was that incorrect?
You can't discredit a person or something he wrote by simply making a empty claim like that. How about you point out the names that were incorrect and the information that was false, and we'll then go through them one by one. If you want to debate background material, I also expect you to have citations and page references where you're getting the 'correct' information from. Thank you very much.
Just to help you out a bit, I can refer you to the following link, where Dan Abnett says for the first time Loken isn't dead and will return in a future book. By the way, information that's been available for half a year can hardly be considered a spoiler.
Another little tidbit on the Exalted, courtesy of BoLS:
"After battle the Exalted search for wounded who have succumbed to the black rage and take them to the chapter tower prison.
5-10 members, Fast Attack, Standard Marine statline with Ld:10/I:5
jump packs, stormbolter, boltpistol, Exalted blades (thin straight blade with spiral hilt, power weapon, +1 Strength)
Guardians of Amareo: replaces Red Fury and Furious Charge with hit& run.
No transport options
Upgrade to Exemplar Sanguinator granting:
-Paragon of the Host: Reroll hit & run roll
-Coup de Grace: If at least 3 attacks hit, they causes instant death"
Again, grain of salt, but this unit sounds pretty cool.
- The Waaagh of GitSmack Daemonkilla BeakieMangla, Da Arch-Krumpa of the Riven Sector
- The Emperor's Judgement
- Commander Shi'Ar'Tol's Fal'Shia Expeditionary Force
- ?
It sounds awesome. Now, is there a way to get them without the jump packs and inside the flying Land Raider or any other transport? I can't really see expensive jump packers surviving in this mech day and age.
Bla_Ze wrote:I don't care if its been AVAILABLE for a century, use the god damn spoiler function
Hey, Bla_Ze, you know Darth Vader is Luke's father, right? Chill out, buddy.
Man, I wish there was a real Black Library where I could get a Black Library Card and take out Black Library Books without having to buy them. Of course, late fees would be your soul. But it would be worth it. - InquisitorMack
Rinkydink wrote:The thing is, if Razorbacks do stick around, and for that matter, everything else in the Vanilla Marine codex. Well then, it would make sense for everyone to run the new BA codex, rather than the standard codex.
You want exalted? You want Furioso, Baal pred, Ass. Marines as troops, Tyco etc? Expect some SM codex stuff to disappear...
Just sayin' is all. You can't expect everything from both the BA and standard SM codex...
I think you can expect the vast majority of it, although borderline stuff might be a little pricey pointwise. I think anything with a largely ranged focus like devastators will be more expensive than their SM or even SW counterparts.
I, for one, am very excited for this. Years ago, when I was still in HS and couldn't afford to play, I saw a Furioso box and thought that something called a Furioso dreadnought was the coolest sounding thing ever. After I started getting Necrons (I thought they looked cooler) I'd been considering BA as a second army, but was so disappointed by the power level of the codex compared to the current SM one, and wasn't going to make the same mistake twice.
I'm definitely going to get this now. If half of these rumors are true, it'll be glorious. I love the BA fluff in a weird, guilty half-ironic sort of way.
Blood Angels 2nd/5th Company (5,400+)
The Wraithkind (4,100+) 
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
)
)
- The Waaagh of GitSmack Daemonkilla BeakieMangla, Da Arch-Krumpa of the Riven Sector
- Commander Shi'Ar'Tol's Fal'Shia Expeditionary Force