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Because not everyone does take it. I'm talking about what I noticed through playing MW2. I don't use a Knife build because I love my M4 with Dotscope & FMJ, with my AA-12 for backup.

sebster wrote:

TopC wrote:1 raffica burst, 1 shot gun blast.. pretty much does the trick, i know, i eat plenty of these when i'm in close quarters trying to sneak to a flag

No, read my post. If I had said there are counters to running knife builds then your reply would make sense. But given that the existance of various counter builds of differing effectiveness doesn't mean knifers aren't still a strong build, then your post ends up rebutting nothing.

By all means, take the running knife build, but be honest in admitting that it is a strong build, and also a goofy one.

I just find that most people online are giant cry babies, can run a knife and pull a 5dkr, turn around and run a sniper/defense class because they cried and ill run a 10+ KDR its like...sooo...you said i was running a knife to farm kills..looks like i do better w/ a intervention..

and yes you are right its funny to just shotty a knifer down

metallifan wrote:Knife-farming only works on maps with plenty of cover and alternate routes. Skidrow, Sub Base, and Karachi come to mind as the perfect maps for this. Meanwhile, maps like Wasteland, Terminal, and Estate will probably see a knifer owned repeatedly and in brutal fashion. If a person wants to avoid knifers, take one of those maps.

The point that you see lots of knifers on certain maps where they work well, and not on maps where they don't establishes that people take the class because it works well. I have no idea why people talk around the issue, just man up and say 'I'm happy taking a one-dimensional, goofy class if it gives me an advantage'.

I think this Cartoon Aptly summarises this debate: (warning contains strong language)















http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/725404532_HhdVE-L.jpg

mod: link dont embed if it breaks the rules.

DakkaDakka Forum Posting Rules, Rule No. 1 wrote:It also should go without saying that swearing, profanity, sexual references, etc, are strictly forbidden, including all images that are posted on or uploaded to our site. Remember that we have users of all ages and that Dakka should be a welcoming place for everyone to enjoy.

Yea, way to go. "Warning, strong language" isn't good enough. Seriously, does no one read Forum rules anymore?

metallifan wrote:Because not everyone does take it. I'm talking about what I noticed through playing MW2. I don't use a Knife build because I love my M4 with Dotscope & FMJ, with my AA-12 for backup.

Of course not everyone does... what does that mean? It doesn't mean it isn't a very effective option, and it doesn't mean that most of the people who choose that build choose it because it gives them a decent advantage.

What is difficult about saying 'A lot of people don't care if something is goofy and tactically limited, they like doing well so they pick a powerful build. This is why a lot of people are running around as fast as they can with a knife'?

TopC wrote:Just as goofy as someone building a..

marathon pro
lightweight pro/stopping power pro (depending on preference)
ninja

Shotty

How is that any worse? you run around a map never getting tired but dont have to melee people (which is obviously harder than just shooting someone w/ a shotgun)

It isn't quite as silly but it's pretty close. It also isn't anywhere near as effective (unlike the knife a shotgun isn't a 100% guaranteed kill, at the effective range of a shotgun coming out of sprint to aim and fire will take longer than closing the last couple of metres to knife a guy, and a knife kill is silent so you can get behind a bunch of bad guys and take them out one after the next while a shotgun blast will alert the enemy to your presence). The dual 1887 build is an exemption to this, because its bizarre effectiveness at range that more or less counter the advantages of the knife build.

And that's why you see a lot of running knife builds and a lot of dual 1887 builds. Which is fine, they're legal and everyone is free to take anything that's legal. What I don't get is the amount of dishonesty in the community, it's okay to say 'I'm doing this because it's a powerful build'.

Sebster for someone saying that many COD players are "giant cry babies" you sure moan a lot about people with the knife build. Just use the UAV killstreak and they become nailed on kills.

Can't say they annoy me that much at all. I have some off days on COD but I know from when I am doing well that it's not the fault of the people running around with comando on. I have a 1.7 kill/death and havent used the knife build once.

I love my .50 Barret and I love my M9. I use one for fighting and the other for fun.

I prefer using a LMG or a sniper rifel dependig on my day to day mood, I prefer to work togetter with my team and dont run wild around the map.

Hardcore HQ only!
Loadout:
M21 EBR with silencer
M9 with tactical knife
Perks:
Scavenger Pro (I need the extra ammo )
Cold Blooded Pro
Steady Aim Pro

using this class, I recently went 51 and 3

Sorry dudes...

My Bad

Meh only time i run a speed class other than CTF is when its a bunch of noobs corner camping w/ shotties/noob tubes.. >.< that annoys me more than anything else in the game...well...other than people care package glitching (to get unlimited care packages..)

whatwhat wrote:Sebster for someone saying that many COD players are "giant cry babies" you sure moan a lot about people with the knife build.

I didn't say anyone was a giant cry baby, that was TopC. I'd never use a term like that, because I'm trying to have a constructive conversation.

Just use the UAV killstreak and they become nailed on kills.

It helps, as do countless other things. The issue is not, and never has been, that nothing can counter a running knife build. This is dakka, a site with constant debate on stronger and weaker army choices in GW games, so I thought this place would understand by now that a stronger choice doesn't mean no counter is ever available. It means that the choice gives an advantage against almost all common builds, while the builds with an advantage over it are somewhat more rare.

My problems with the build are two fold. First up, it is plainly silly for a game that's meant to be simulating modern warfare. The second problem is that it is very one dimensional - you're geared for nothing but running behind or straight at enemy units and stabbing them, and aren't geared at all for taking objectives or anything like that. This means running knifers are annoying when the other side takes them, and probably more annoying when my own side does - as we're effectively playing one man short because some guy is running around ignoring the objectives we need to win.

It is a legal and intended design, so I have no problem with people taking it. I just wish they'd man up and tell the truth, they don't care that the build is simple and one-dimensional, it helps them score good kill to death ratios and that's what they want.

Can't say they annoy me that much at all. I have some off days on COD but I know from when I am doing well that it's not the fault of the people running around with comando on. I have a 1.7 kill/death and havent used the knife build once.

I'm going at around 1.3 or 1.4 - it used to be better but I go through these phases where I use the riot shield on domination maps, I normally manage a decent score and a team win but the k-d ratio takes a fair hit.

sebster wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Sebster for someone saying that many COD players are "giant cry babies" you sure moan a lot about people with the knife build.

I didn't say anyone was a giant cry baby, that was TopC. I'd never use a term like that, because I'm trying to have a constructive conversation.

Just use the UAV killstreak and they become nailed on kills.

It helps, as do countless other things. The issue is not, and never has been, that nothing can counter a running knife build. This is dakka, a site with constant debate on stronger and weaker army choices in GW games, so I thought this place would understand by now that a stronger choice doesn't mean no counter is ever available. It means that the choice gives an advantage against almost all common builds, while the builds with an advantage over it are somewhat more rare.

My problems with the build are two fold. First up, it is plainly silly for a game that's meant to be simulating modern warfare. The second problem is that it is very one dimensional - you're geared for nothing but running behind or straight at enemy units and stabbing them, and aren't geared at all for taking objectives or anything like that. This means running knifers are annoying when the other side takes them, and probably more annoying when my own side does - as we're effectively playing one man short because some guy is running around ignoring the objectives we need to win.

It is a legal and intended design, so I have no problem with people taking it. I just wish they'd man up and tell the truth, they don't care that the build is simple and one-dimensional, it helps them score good kill to death ratios and that's what they want.

Can't say they annoy me that much at all. I have some off days on COD but I know from when I am doing well that it's not the fault of the people running around with comando on. I have a 1.7 kill/death and havent used the knife build once.

I'm going at around 1.3 or 1.4 - it used to be better but I go through these phases where I use the riot shield on domination maps, I normally manage a decent score and a team win but the k-d ratio takes a fair hit.

Well i think the knife/speed class has a def advantage in certain objective games, especially CTF as it allows for a very fast flag runner.. especially if you use tac insert somewhere sneaky!!!

So...today i finally broke down and made a noob tube class to prove a point, couple of people were saying that it actually requires skill to play this class and i laughed.. I then made...

m16, grenade launcher, RPG.
Scav pro
Danger close
Ninja pro

build.. played it for 3 matches, never went below 8kdr which is just redic because out of all 3 matches i think i got MAYBE 2 kills w/ bullets >.< not a brag in the slightests, i thinka bout anyone w/ good knowledge of map layout and some tactical sense could easily do just as well in a regular public game (not vs a team)

Point i made to my friends was..that compared to a class that requires you to speed knife, or using a gun that actually requires a very good aim (sniper) its just slowed easy..

ex. ZOMG look theres a fire fight, Lob grenade, lob grenade, launch RPG, your team pushes forward you unload a couple bullets, reload (so you can scav) rinse repeat.. it has its funny moments like.. zomg i just head shot a sniper from across the map w/ an rpg that i cant control where it goes LAWL but i dont really see much if any skill involved w/ the class and promptly switched back to sniping where you actually need to be tactical w/ cover and have good reflexes to get those shots in before someone just sprays your position..

TopC wrote:Well i think the knife/speed class has a def advantage in certain objective games, especially CTF as it allows for a very fast flag runner.. especially if you use tac insert somewhere sneaky!!!

So...today i finally broke down and made a noob tube class to prove a point, couple of people were saying that it actually requires skill to play this class and i laughed.. I then made...

m16, grenade launcher, RPG.
Scav pro
Danger close
Ninja pro

build.. played it for 3 matches, never went below 8kdr which is just redic because out of all 3 matches i think i got MAYBE 2 kills w/ bullets >.< not a brag in the slightests, i thinka bout anyone w/ good knowledge of map layout and some tactical sense could easily do just as well in a regular public game (not vs a team)

Point i made to my friends was..that compared to a class that requires you to speed knife, or using a gun that actually requires a very good aim (sniper) its just slowed easy..

ex. ZOMG look theres a fire fight, Lob grenade, lob grenade, launch RPG, your team pushes forward you unload a couple bullets, reload (so you can scav) rinse repeat.. it has its funny moments like.. zomg i just head shot a sniper from across the map w/ an rpg that i cant control where it goes LAWL but i dont really see much if any skill involved w/ the class and promptly switched back to sniping where you actually need to be tactical w/ cover and have good reflexes to get those shots in before someone just sprays your position..

Yeah, the scavenger toob build is also a powerful build. Again, we're on a board that discusses the power level of armies as a matter of course, so shouldn't people be familiar with the idea that existance of one powerful build does not remove the possibility of another powerful build?

I give the toob build a little more leeway because it isn't so goofy, and in my experience the overwhelming number of toob users use them in non-exploitative builds, while most of running knifers build that as a class that uses nothing but knives. I will often take a toob because I don't get much value out of the other add-ons for my ACR excepting maybe FMJ. I don't use it that much and never run around with the toob always on like the real toobers do, I just use when a guy is popping in and out of a sniping position, or when the enemy is capping a point and I can put a toob in there before moving in to defend.

But yeah, taking scavenger and constantly firing toobs while on the move is lame.

Personally I think the toob issue could be fixed by preventing people from firing toobs as they move, and certainly from firing while jumping. Just require them to brace by holding right mouse button, they stand still for a fraction of a second and can then fire. The toob would still be useful for the purposes it should be used for - firing into strongholds and hidey-holes, it just wouldn't be that great for running around twitch firing at whatever targets appear.

The running knife build could be fixed by making guns in general a little more deadly. You never see running knife builds in hardcore matches because people can shoot down knifers before they reach melee range, but in regular games a knifer can back himself to cross a room while being drilled and bring down the target.

sebster wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Sebster for someone saying that many COD players are "giant cry babies" you sure moan a lot about people with the knife build.

I didn't say anyone was a giant cry baby, that was TopC. I'd never use a term like that, because I'm trying to have a constructive conversation.

My mistake, it was TopC, sorry.

I would have to go with:

Intervention w/Thermal Sight
M1014 w/FMJ
Claymore
Flashbang
Sleight of hand pro
Stopping power pro
Steady aim pro
I don't care about deathstreak

Three cheers for no jugernaught perk!

My favorite thing about MW2? Well, it's also my favorite thing about MW1, hardcore mode. I shouldn't have to empty half a magazine into your chest to take you down...

Oh, and I have a knife class, but only play it when im screwin around.

Well since we are trying to talk power builds etc in a logical manner i'd like to point out....

How is it that an assault rifle doesnt wobble/scatter/recoil as much at long distances compared to a sniper rifle? makes no sense >.< looky im running w/ an assault rifle and i see a vague outline across the entire map..while running throw up on it let off a couple burst and it dies.. Think this kinda stuff should be toned down if were trying to make a "simulated warfare" game.

Try holding a camera at something in close range then try zooming in on something far away. Notice how hard it is to keep what you are looking at in shot at long range, and how much it seems to shake around when compared to looking at a close range object. That's why there's less wobble on a assault riffle.

As for aiming with it there's like a milimeter of difference when aiming with an assault rifle between hitting your target and hitting nowhere near them.

Also if a target at range is moving, it's very hard to shoot with an assault riffle. So the only benefit you're getting is against still campers. And you want to tone that down? I'd prefer it as it is and keep it from becoming camper heaven thank you.

My favorite thing is my killstreak choices:
Attack Chopper.
Pave Low.
Chopper Gunner.
Everytime I kill another player, it's "Get to the Choppa!" I love that callsign.

I switch loadouts depending on the map. I usually am running around with either the Steyr AUG HBAR (though I'm trying to get the last of my FMJ kills with the RPD), Spec Ops with the P90 with an invisible build (Cold Blooded, Ninja, silenced weapons), or the M16A4 with the AGOG.

whatwhat wrote:Try holding a camera at something in close range then try zooming in on something far away. Notice how hard it is to keep what you are looking at in shot at long range, and how much it seems to shake around when compared to looking at a close range object. That's why there's less wobble on a assault riffle.

As for aiming with it there's like a milimeter of difference when aiming with an assault rifle between hitting your target and hitting nowhere near them.

Also if a target at range is moving, it's very hard to shoot with an assault riffle. So the only benefit you're getting is against still campers. And you want to tone that down? I'd prefer it as it is and keep it from becoming camper heaven thank you.

I think camping is dumb, unless your using a sniper rifle, or your playing an objective based game.

Kill cam = slowed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

whatwhat wrote:Try holding a camera at something in close range then try zooming in on something far away. Notice how hard it is to keep what you are looking at in shot at long range, and how much it seems to shake around when compared to looking at a close range object. That's why there's less wobble on a assault riffle.

As for aiming with it there's like a milimeter of difference when aiming with an assault rifle between hitting your target and hitting nowhere near them.

Also if a target at range is moving, it's very hard to shoot with an assault riffle. So the only benefit you're getting is against still campers. And you want to tone that down? I'd prefer it as it is and keep it from becoming camper heaven thank you.

hold a rifle and look down the sights at something 300+ yards away. how hard is it to keep the rifle near 100% steady w/o firing from the prone position, or using something to brace the rifle against? I'm saying there is a realism issue between a sniper rifle and a assault rifle. Scope on assault rifle: No wobble, ANY scope on sniper rifle: Wobble. So there is realism/programming issue w/ how the assault rifle behaves w/ a scope compared to a sniper rifle.

Thats all i was pointing out

Scar-H Bling with Heartbeat Sensor and Grenade Launcher
M1014 with Grip and Red Dot
Semtex
Flashbang
Bling Pro
Stopping Power Pro
Scrambler Pro

Care Package
Sentry Gun
Precision Airstrike




My other class:
L86 LSW with Thermal
Javelin
Smoke Grenade
C4
Sleight of Hand Pro
Cold-Blooded Pro
Steady Aim Pro
Copycat

MW2 thing I love most:

Getting bored with it in less than three months and getting ready for Battlefield: Bad Company 2. Demo is out on XBL, and it's sweet. Gonna be a lot more fun than MW2, which was just more of the same. Didn't even hit Level 70 and don't feel like I missed out on anything, wanted to try Spec Ops but better games to play.

Pretty disappointing in the long run, considering all the hype. Modern Warfare 1.5 rather than Modern Warfare 2...

Rushing with a shotgun

I love:

SCAR-H with Stopping power pro and FMJ (it's like a bolter)
The M-16, just in general
Killing fast knifers, snipers and noob tubers

Another thing I love:

All you guys that use scrambler. You make it so easy to spot when your coming/flanking.

Cairnius wrote:MW2 thing I love most:

Getting bored with it in less than three months and getting ready for Battlefield: Bad Company 2. Demo is out on XBL, and it's sweet. Gonna be a lot more fun than MW2, which was just more of the same. Didn't even hit Level 70 and don't feel like I missed out on anything, wanted to try Spec Ops but better games to play.

Pretty disappointing in the long run, considering all the hype. Modern Warfare 1.5 rather than Modern Warfare 2...

Hey, I see a kid with a Nintendo... Wanna smash it?

Seriously, my favourite thing about mw2 is that it shows how immature a lot of people are. The whole, "Well I dont like this, so I'll go talk to people who do and badmouth it" attitude.

Disappointed? Start a "worst thing about MW2" topic.

The happy reaper wrote:

Cairnius wrote:MW2 thing I love most:

Getting bored with it in less than three months and getting ready for Battlefield: Bad Company 2. Demo is out on XBL, and it's sweet. Gonna be a lot more fun than MW2, which was just more of the same. Didn't even hit Level 70 and don't feel like I missed out on anything, wanted to try Spec Ops but better games to play.

Pretty disappointing in the long run, considering all the hype. Modern Warfare 1.5 rather than Modern Warfare 2...

Hey, I see a kid with a Nintendo... Wanna smash it?

Seriously, my favourite thing about mw2 is that it shows how immature a lot of people are. The whole, "Well I dont like this, so I'll go talk to people who do and badmouth it" attitude.

Disappointed? Start a "worst thing about MW2" topic.

I dunno I'm gonna have to side with Cairnius on this one. Game is awesome good fun when played on campaign or with friends, but the sheer massive amounts of hype for it lured all the douchebags and children away from Halo 3 and into MW2. This, added to some easily exploitable multiplayer features and broken weapons (dual sawed-offs ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!) turned the whole online play experience (at least for me) into a huge Charlie Foxtrot of idiocy. And no, I didn't lose a lot either, I did pretty well. I just got sick of dealing with all the bull

No problem, just slot the knifer the next time around. Even more fun if you stop a killing streak

Corvus wrote:

The happy reaper wrote:

Cairnius wrote:MW2 thing I love most:

Getting bored with it in less than three months and getting ready for Battlefield: Bad Company 2. Demo is out on XBL, and it's sweet. Gonna be a lot more fun than MW2, which was just more of the same. Didn't even hit Level 70 and don't feel like I missed out on anything, wanted to try Spec Ops but better games to play.

Pretty disappointing in the long run, considering all the hype. Modern Warfare 1.5 rather than Modern Warfare 2...

Hey, I see a kid with a Nintendo... Wanna smash it?

Seriously, my favourite thing about mw2 is that it shows how immature a lot of people are. The whole, "Well I dont like this, so I'll go talk to people who do and badmouth it" attitude.

Disappointed? Start a "worst thing about MW2" topic.

I dunno I'm gonna have to side with Cairnius on this one. Game is awesome good fun when played on campaign or with friends, but the sheer massive amounts of hype for it lured all the douchebags and children away from Halo 3 and into MW2. This, added to some easily exploitable multiplayer features and broken weapons (dual sawed-offs ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!) turned the whole online play experience (at least for me) into a huge Charlie Foxtrot of idiocy. And no, I didn't lose a lot either, I did pretty well. I just got sick of dealing with all the bull

I'm not disputing the fact that it has a lot of problems, god knows I have issues with the whole knifer thing, and I have used those shotties myself to get the top award for them. I dont like the fact that hardcore has time-limits and I dont like the way the rpd got nerfed, but if you want to complain go somewhere else, or start a new thread.

Seems ignorant to me. If I walked into a PS3 Forum and said, "hey guys the ps3 sucks, lol" I wouldn't leave alive.