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I think there is a greater meta game to this...

Every time a new codex comes out, armies need to change and adapt to win.

Simple as that.

Orks were made:
"Oh nose! my lascannon marines need to have other things in the army to deal with huge hordes!"

When chaos came out:
"Oh nose!psyker powers! I need something to defend against psykers!"

When deamons can out:
"Oh nose! I need something good at close combat to deal with these guys!"

Get the drift?

My point is each update to the game means that you need to update your tactics and list to deal with it.

agnosto wrote:

Mistress of minis wrote:New units in new codexes sell new models.

Making those new units extra uber cool will obviously help them sell better. Like Valk/Vendettas. Or the new big bugs.

Changing overall rules in the game, like how vehicles operate, can massively effect codex creep. Look at how previously average armies with mech elements are now doing much better.

Throw out a new codex with new models- tougher models often require new tactics to counter- this often requires people with existing armies to add a few new models.

Codex Creep- is just a marketing tool, sometimes its subtle, sometimes its not.

That would make sense if they actually made models for the new coolest of the cool units instead you get one or two new models and then the rest spread out over the lifespan of the current edition. Maximizing sales would mean making the whole line available so people run out and buy the new cooles of the cool models.

Lets look at the average gamer- they cant buy a whole new range of minis all at once. But, if you feed them a cool new piece every few weeks they recover from the last bout of wallet-rape and buy the next wave. It works(from thier standpoint). CCG's, RPG's, mini games, keep feeding us addicts something new at a decent pace- not too much, but just enough to keep us wanting more

frgsinwntr wrote:I think there is a greater meta game to this...

Every time a new codex comes out, armies need to change and adapt to win.

Simple as that.

Orks were made:
"Oh nose! my lascannon marines need to have other things in the army to deal with huge hordes!"

When chaos came out:
"Oh nose!psyker powers! I need something to defend against psykers!"

When deamons can out:
"Oh nose! I need something good at close combat to deal with these guys!"

Get the drift?

My point is each update to the game means that you need to update your tactics and list to deal with it.

To an extent, you're right in that each new army has new tactics that need to be accounted for. If all codexes were balanced, both internally and with each other, this wouldn't be an issue. The problem is, they are not. This partly by design, because it would seem to be quite hard to fully "balance" armies that play radically different; partly because of different writers/creative teams making different rules as opposed to a core rules team that put out everything; and partly because codexes adapt to the ever-changing pond of the metagame, so the later a codex is written in the cycle, the more it can react/reflect the current state of the game, updated rules, etc. By that standard, codex creep is virtually mandatory and impossible to mitigate.

Mistress of minis wrote:New units in new codexes sell new models.

Making those new units extra uber cool will obviously help them sell better. Like Valk/Vendettas. Or the new big bugs.

Changing overall rules in the game, like how vehicles operate, can massively effect codex creep. Look at how previously average armies with mech elements are now doing much better.

Throw out a new codex with new models- tougher models often require new tactics to counter- this often requires people with existing armies to add a few new models.

Codex Creep- is just a marketing tool, sometimes its subtle, sometimes its not.

you mean like a plastic demon prince, plastic horrors, plastic plaguebearers and Demonette cavalry?

oh wait, they didn't make any of those.

GW simply doesnt have the capacity, or ability to make every model in plastic as fast they, or we would like. Why would they make more chaos models right now- when everyone hates the codex? Those figs will likely pop up when they do the next version of Chaos(and they will- just like they did for 3rd and 4th ed)

Notice that most of the kits that are in plastic and come out in the first wave of a codex release are something that most army will need multiples of- Drop pods, valkyries, Tyrgons(since the kits is base for the other TMC's)- this isnt set in stone with every codex release but you can be pretty sure its what they are aiming for.

Fantasy is horribly, horribly irrevocably broken at least until either the new rules are released or everyone else gets a daemons of chaos level bump.

40K though is probably more balanced than it has ever been (except maybe during the rulebook only phase of 3rd ed) at least amongst the last 6 armies.

Marines, Orks, Daemons, Guard, Space Wolves and now Nids all seem to be at a fairly even keel. Daemons may be slightly weaker and wolves slightly too good (in their defense though some of the abusive wolf armies aren't even space wolf armies but guard armies made with space wolf rules. If you want to run 9 razorbacks and have 0 cc capability why don't you go build a mech guard army to do the same thing but then it will be fluffy) but we see all of these doing well at tournies and there's no obvious wolves can't beat orks/ orks can't beat guard situation.

The problem is that starting from Orks the power level of all these codecii has skyrocketed vs the 4th ed mean. Cheaper troops, cheaper vehicles, more powerful characters, multiple viable builds, powerful army wide special rules, squadrons of heavy tanks, powerful psykers, etc.

Of the 4th/ 3rd ed lists eldar, dark eldar, sisters, marine variants and chaos can all bring a decent game to the table but are at a step removed from the 5th ed mean.

Tau have serious design issues that were present even during their heyday and need a radical rethink and expansion.

Necrons have been seriously screwed by the 5th ed core rule book changes and are hands down the worst army in the game. They need a new rulebook more than anyone (even DE) to become playable and rumour has it they may be in luck soonish.

Daemonhunters have always been crap but make for fine allies.

Dunno, space pups were a bit overpowered with some obvious hiccups like rune priests totally owning SM librarians for some bizarre reason, not to mention the new IG codex, if anythingcan be opted to win that´s it.

Lets wait till we see what blood angels get and if their codex will in turn slightly beat the space wolfs then there is most certainly some form of codex creep.

On the downside this means my SM army will get more and more under performing to all the new things.
On the positive side, IF codex creep really exists I´m very glad the daemon hunters are one of the getting last who will get a new codex, that means they will be unstoppable

Pyriel- wrote:
On the positive side, IF codex creep really exists I´m very glad the daemon hunters are one of the getting last who will get a new codex, that means they will be unstoppable

One can only hope. It would be the one saving grace of the whole fiasco.

A-P wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:
On the positive side, IF codex creep really exists I´m very glad the daemon hunters are one of the getting last who will get a new codex, that means they will be unstoppable

One can only hope. It would be the one saving grace of the whole fiasco.

Now THAT would be funny - and pretty much make it all worth it, and it would be OK...

i personally think DE will be the most broken army out there when their codex gets done. They'll be so good that the next codex wont be til around 2020.

I don't see DH changing that much from an FOC point of view. Maybe they'll be more powerful but remember there is the rumor that the Ordos will all be combined into one codex and that might drastically change them.

I think Tau were a top tier army back in 4th edition but the new ruleset has really nerfed them a lot. DE had a strong run in the old GW GTs back when 3rd edition first came out. It's kind of funny because prior to that run everyone said they stinked. I don't see them as a top tier army now, as a friend of mine pointed out to me the new TLOS rules really hurt their raider blitz. While they are still touted as SM killers actually shooty SM can handle them quite well. DE was designed to use the divide & conquer strategy so if you can castle your army they will fold... Sure they are highly mobile and great at using their speed to bring about numerical supremacy but if they are staring down an entire army with all units supporting each they are hard pressed. I refer to this as circling the wagons, it works very well versus DE.

I don't think it's absolutely necessary to change your existing army list to handle new armies though this is definitely not always the case. To me SM and CSM don't have an answer for daemons and if you retool your list to go anti daemon then you could leave yourself wide open versus other existing armies. The best way to handle daemons is via a heavily mechanized army and it's not like people weren't building mech lists prior to the release of daemons. That's just the way it is now. Most good armies will have some mobility, lots of shooting and some good assault units. Of course if your army can do two of those attributes very well (IG quickly comes to mind) then you are still in good shape and possibly even moreso than an army that is good at all three but not overly strong in any one category. Daemons are very interesting to me in this regard since you can tailor a list to do quite well in any one category or even two out of three. With Khorne daemons you can build a list where every unit ignores armor saves in close combat and that is a huge problem for SM & CSM. Tzneetch daemons are both highly mobile and can pour out tonnes of dakka. Slaanesh has a few good units such as the Masque, Fiends and the Keeper of Secrets... But let's be very honest, when have you ever seen a pure Slaanesh daemon army? Never, daemonettes are a very weak troop choices when compared to Plague Bearers and Bloodletters. Nurgle only has one viable build, the Tallyman and that list is prone to problems if the preferred wave (including Epidemius) comes in after the 1st turn. A lot of people are starting to discover some success with multi god armies and I'm not referring to the Fateweaver/Crusher spam list. GW retconned the daemonic background so it's okay now to field a multi god army and I think that's cool that GW had the vision to go in that direction in the face of all of the players that used to run daemon bombing CSM armies.

G

Question: Are we still talking about Codex Creep in which newer Codices are categorically stronger than older Codices (a la WFB Daemons), or are we talking about Codex Churn, in which unit effectiveness is semi-randomly changed for the purpose of shaking up the game?

From a Creep standpoint, about the only major change is with Transports getting somewhat cheaper, but this trades off against Shooting getting generally worse across the board.

From a Churn standpoint, this is SOP by GW.

As for the DE I think GW will make them absolute OP powerhouses since they get new models and those will need to sell and sell well.

Speaking of DH I believe they will get either a new of jetbikes unit or at least a special character on a jet bike like the DA did. We have been pushing really really hard for GK jetbike rules on another board for ages now and besides necrons I cant think of any army that is in such a need for more options and choices.

Never heard of Codex Churn. I was actually talking about armies becoming close to auto-pilot in certain builds in some newer books particularly on WHFB side.
My battlecry and bragging point whenever somebody says their Chaos Demons can do this or that is to say: "Well, Dwarfs can march every turn AND within 8" of the enemy! That's a massive six inches of movement EVERY turn, Pal!"

Codex Creeps are at least better then this;

{{{{{{{{IDK what you guys are saying...

I started with Space Marines in 2008, since they came with the AOBR box I got when I first picked up this game while browsing the mall and walking into my first Games Workshop...

They were pretty fun but got boring around may of 2009 tho, so I went with Imperial Guard, they were pretty good in Dawn of War: Dark Crusade and I saw someone feilding a huge tank called a "Shadow-sword" or something in apocalyptic 40 k (Or something like that). Plus, I got guys that were like, just as good as spacemarines with a 2+ cover when I put them togeather. AND they flew in airplanes that shot lazers.

BUt then they got boring around October of 2009 when the Wolf codex came out. Wolverine is like, my BEST XMAN EVER! So I swapped to that army real quick and took things that were like my old devestating marines but better (Longteeth?!?! lol) and "Ba-jorn the Drednot" (He was really good). Plus I didn't even have to buy much cause I cud just use my AOBR guys with some other normal Space Marines (Since they look the same).

Then my friend at my LGS told me about the nids. I LOVED ZERG RUSH IN STARCRAFT and I have been LOVING NIDS since their codex first came out last month. (Aliens are AWESOME!!!). I'm kinda sad tho, cause they are not as good as my space marines, but the look SO MUCH COOLER!

Maybe Space Marines will get another codex this year with Jet-Planes like IG. That would be cool, then I could use my IG planes instead of buying new ones. Blood Angels also look fun cause I like vampires, plus my big brother told me that Blood Angels used to be the BEST cause they are fast and stuffs.

Did I mention I don't paint my guys?" }}}}}}}}

If the above is you... drive while intoxicated...

If you know someone like the above, push them over. (For me please)

BOT: Codex Creeping in 40k means playing the latest and greatest Imperium Army. Nids seem rather fair, but I'm actually rather terrified with how deadly BA could be...

I think codex creep exists in a small form, but only in the sense that it would have too.

When i first saw the 5th nid book, i screamed imbalance as everything has really quite good stats, better guns, and amazing psyker powers. However, changes to nid rules were made and nids arent overpowered any more than any new codex always is. But after time and more codicies come out, everything is fairly balanced.

But shouldnt the new dex be strong? If blood angels are completely underpowered few people are going to spend money on them. In reality neither space wolves or tyranids or any of the new books are overpowered, just new. New tacits, new units, new rules, of course it would seem strong.

I play chaos daemons and chaos space marines. While Daemons was one of the first books to be made for 5th i dont believe them overpowered, or that they ever were. They are still said to be non-competetive. But i enjoy playing with them and i certainly dont lose due to codex.

I dont believe blood angels will be overpowered, or that everybody is going to switch to them. I do believe some space marine players will quickly switch, but i believe the 5th space marine book is quite underpowered. Simple converstions and a new book solve the problem and make people happy. Something GW doesnt often do, make their customers happy... I wont blame anybody who plays them or scream codex creep. I play for fun, i dont mind losing. but i like to win. Only makes sense to pick an army that can satisfy both. Whether or not its new is irrelevant.

But shouldnt the new dex be strong? If blood angels are completely underpowered few people are going to spend money on them. In reality neither space wolves or tyranids or any of the new books are overpowered, just new. New tacits, new units, new rules, of course it would seem strong.

Well the DA codex was hands down underpowered.

As for daemons you are right.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:...BOT: Codex Creeping in 40k means playing the latest and greatest Imperium Army. Nids seem rather fair..

One of our better local players started fielding nids. He ran some psyker stuff last Friday that stomped the crud outta MEQs. Dropping somebody to WS1 or BS1 and waltzing over to them is brutal.

I like what mrwhittwer said.

Having moved back to guard after many years, at first i thought they were way overpowered, now i think it's more to do with players being given more choices and differnt tactics/ways of using the units, especially in new ways - the orders system rocks! - that other players took a little while to get used to. Guard are no longer an army that once you rech the front line you win, they are jsut as dangerous up close if you know what you're doing. Part of this is down to the changes in 5th ed, partly down to having so many options you can sacfrifice units in order to protect others.

privateer4hire wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:...BOT: Codex Creeping in 40k means playing the latest and greatest Imperium Army. Nids seem rather fair..

One of our better local players started fielding nids. He ran some psyker stuff last Friday that stomped the crud outta MEQs. Dropping somebody to WS1 or BS1 and waltzing over to them is brutal.

Most brand new codexes contain one or two clever tricks which are quickly exploited successfully by clever players. They quickly spread due to the Internets, and get copied widely. Then the clever players deploy a counter.

5th seems pretty balanced to me- when new lists come out, I always feel my orks have the tools to counter them. Outdate lists need an update, but that's more to do with the editions than creep.
Fantasy, similarly, has a more tiered system than an actual creep. It's that some armies are at one power level, and others are at a totally different power level. Also, they have edition lag.
Daemons are definitely the worst offender, in fantasy.

Why does everyone continue to think Tau are weak? Because of 5th ed rules?

Ok, what in 5th ed hurt Tau?

Also, it seems like GW has picked a power level and stayed there for the last few codices. Meaning they are finally realizing that a quality, balanced game sells more models then putting out the new uber army every 6 months.

privateer4hire wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:...BOT: Codex Creeping in 40k means playing the latest and greatest Imperium Army. Nids seem rather fair..

One of our better local players started fielding nids. He ran some psyker stuff last Friday that stomped the crud outta MEQs. Dropping somebody to WS1 or BS1 and waltzing over to them is brutal.

Take a hood, not too hard.

CptZach wrote:Why does everyone continue to think Tau are weak? Because of 5th ed rules?

Ok, what in 5th ed hurt Tau?

Also, it seems like GW has picked a power level and stayed there for the last few codices. Meaning they are finally realizing that a quality, balanced game sells more models then putting out the new uber army every 6 months.

Mech Tau consistently pwn the local MEQ crowd. Tau Player smartly mins his Troops and maxes out everything that can shoot (since that's a Tau strength). He kits out his HQ for close combat----he took out a charging Dread in one round----and fields lots of marker lights so he wears out anything that moves, doesn't move, etc. Granted, we do play on 5 x 5 tables, giving him additional round of shooting in most cases but he shoots and moves and uses those missiles that hit automatically w/o LOS to great effect.

The main things which hurt Tau in 5e are armies moving faster and having more cover available. Neither of these factors help Tau, who want to stay at range and already have 4+ or 3+ saves.

TLoS also hurts Tau because it makes the jump-shoot-jump tactic less useful because the suits are less easily hidden in cover.


@privateer4hire
That extra size of the table probably makes a lot of the difference. Also, you've got the results of only one Tau player (who may happen to be very good) against a group of MEQ players, many of whom may be weak. It's anecdotal evidence.

No-one is saying Tau are a very weak army now, however there are clear reasons why they suffer more disadvantage under 5e than most other armies.

It depends on your definition of strength of an army. If I make up some figures to show the argument, on a 1-10 scale, Tau are probably on a 6 and the new codexes (SM, Nids, Orks, IG) are between 7 and 9. It's not like a difference between 1 and 10 but it is a significant difference.

I don't think Tau are a weak army in 5th, it's just they were a very good army in 4th due to the way they interacted with the main rules, and as such were costed appropriately. Now that 5th has made major changes to the rules (No Target Priority, TLOS, Running) the Tau don't mesh with the rules quite as well as before, but still have to pay points-wise like they do.

Honestly, the only thing I'd like to see change for the Tau is the points costs of Fire Warriors and Vespids go down.

Oh and a removal of redundant verbiage like Target Priority references in the armory sections.

They need a lot more changes than that. Making crappy options cheaper doesn't help much.

Head over to the Proposed Rules forum and check the what to do about Tau threads.

Back OT, there was a sweet spot for Tau when their 4e codex had come out and several other armies such as IG, Orks and Eldar had old codexes, where they were competitive. Newest codex effect.

Kilkrazy wrote:They need a lot more changes than that. Making crappy options cheaper doesn't help much.

Head over to the Proposed Rules forum and check the what to do about Tau threads.

Back OT, there was a sweet spot for Tau when their 4e codex had come out and several other armies such as IG, Orks and Eldar had old codexes, where they were competitive. Newest codex effect.

I would disagree. Tau are very much like Eldar or Dark eldar. In the fact that they have 1 power build. Unfortunately changing a lot from this list means you go from a top tier list to a bottom of the tier list.

Its just that with Eldar and DE and some other armies, people have grown to accept that their is 1 good build and to stay away from others or from changing it too much.

So this point actually brings me back on topic.
With the new Codices, I wouldn't say there is a power creep, however I would say each book has many more Top Tier armies.

SM, IG, SW ect.. can build 6 different Top Tier armies, Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tau, DA ect.. can only build 1. Its not so much a power creep as GW making every unit in a Codex actually good and usable.

Tau Have a power build?

frgsinwntr wrote:Tau Have a power build?

Ninja-Tau? I wouldn't even call that a power build...
Uhhh.... fish o fury?.....that was nerfed by TLOS; though I have considered puting my fish on valkyrie bases....