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true the 50 man pit unit will take at least 2 turns to die, assuming they pass all morale tests.

five 10 man squads are perfect for tarpiting because they can tie down more units then one 50 man squad can and they will die alot quicker then the 50 man unit.

here's a definition of tarpit units

Tarpit units

units of cheap, expendable models that are purposed to slow down enemy units inside an optimal kill zone where the enemy units will be left vulnerable to a counter assault from a close combat specialist unit or overwhelming, concentrated fire power from multiple unit with heavy weapons and/or mass volumes. normally small in number to allow the enemy to whipe them out in 1 assault phase so the tarpit player is free to shoot them in his subsequent turn.

classic tarpit units: gaunts, grots, guardians, kroot, small fire warior squads, conscripts.....ect

Broken Loose wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:And my choice is to bubblewrap all my really killy stuff (Manticores, HWTs, etc.) so that I get an extra turn of shooting. It's basically buying a free shooting phase (one that you wouldn't get otherwise) that comes with some early-game ranged punch and is a hard counter to Hammernators and MCs.

Even so, it would be better to bubblewrap with multiple, smaller squads so they'd crumple to a charge and allow you free shots. If the enemy is stuck in a tarpit, you can't shoot at them.

Not everything that the enemy has will be in assault simultaneously

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:
Not everything that the enemy has will be in assault simultaneously

Unless the enemy is Orks.

dumplingman wrote:personal fav is

WH army

inducted platoon led by al rahiem
50 man blob unit 5 commisars w/ p weaposn 5 sarges with p weapons
5 attached priests with eviscoratores all out flanking hahahaha

I lol'd, this tactics always fun! Unless people begin to flamer/battlecannon/rapid fire it :( my friends learned to do that to mine so I quit running it lol

50 guardsmen for 250 pts isn't bad. Especially when you can use "For the honor of Cadia" and make them all fearless/ furious charge.
Once they get in CC, they usually get butchered around the 2-3 turn
When I did charge with 50 guardsmen under "For The Honor of Cadia" I ended up killing about 7 nobs and 25 boyz. The space monkeys (orks) all died by the second turn of CC

The next ork turn, a Warboss and about 15-20 ard boys swept up the surviving guard "around 20 men"

The advantage of a blob over individual squads is that it only takes 1 commisar, 1 vox, and 1 priest to make the whole unit stubborn, order-rerolling and to-hit rerolling. So it magnifies the cost efficiency of those upgrades. Also, one order affects the whole unit, so even a non-Creed officer can get your whole 30-50 guys triple-tapping, rallying or bringing things down--magnifying the economy of scale for those orders. Finally, all those character-mounted power weapons (if you use WH priests) are non-targetable, so you have to wade through dozens of guardsmen to get at them. And if you kill em all, you have gotten yourself one kill point.

But you decide whether or not to blob at deployment. So if some of the situations raised on this thread come up and the mission warrants it, you can still keep them as individual squads.

Grey Templar wrote:true the 50 man pit unit will take at least 2 turns to die, assuming they pass all morale tests.

five 10 man squads are perfect for tarpiting because they can tie down more units then one 50 man squad can and they will die alot quicker then the 50 man unit.

here's a definition of tarpit units

Tarpit units

units of cheap, expendable models that are purposed to slow down enemy units inside an optimal kill zone where the enemy units will be left vulnerable to a counter assault from a close combat specialist unit or overwhelming, concentrated fire power from multiple unit with heavy weapons and/or mass volumes. normally small in number to allow the enemy to whipe them out in 1 assault phase so the tarpit player is free to shoot them in his subsequent turn.

classic tarpit units: gaunts, grots, guardians, kroot, small fire warior squads, conscripts.....ect

Your definition is inaccurate. You defined a speed-bump unit.

A tarpit unit is one that will take another, hopefully more effective unit, and lock it in close combat for a prohibitively long time. The ideal situation would be to take a relatively inexpensive unit and lock down a highly effective and expensive enemy unit for a protracted amount of time. This prevents your opponent's unit from doing anything effective as long as its locked with your unimportant unit.

I think they are similer in purpose and function

i would call them either one, but you can define them differently


as i play primarily space marines and orks(i use 10 grots for meat shields) i don't use tarpits or speedbumps myself and can only define what i see used against me in casual games


Either way the monster unit in question does a poor job of tarpitting because it will inevitable cost more then what ever it is tarpitting and any half-decent player will be able to prevent you from tieing down multiple units

I really like the blob squads, mostly because I've seen how devastatingly effective they can be. 50 guys with 5 autocannons, commissar, melta bombs, and 6 power weapons is quite pricey (425 points, 395 without the melta bombs), but are a great all-rounder unit, especially with straken nearby. You can 'bring it down' to hose transports and MCs, you can FRFSRF to wipe out infantry (105 lasgun shots is nothing to sneeze at, that's enough to take out half a tac squad or a full Ork mob), and if they get charged they can put out 24 power weapon attacks, killing 4 MEQs from those alone. Trying to move them off an objective or silence their shooting is no mean feat, and getting close to them is suicide for most units. Putting a 10-man assault screen or two in front of them can buy a guaranteed turn or two of FRFSRF into fast assault units, which is nasty.
A more mobile variant I like drops the autocannons for meltaguns and becomes a good squad for marching at the enemy, but I prefer the firebase.

Yes, a burnawagon does mess them up, but that's why it's the rest of the army's job to mess up the burnawagon or similar threats.

My thoughts on the blob squad is that it's a great scoring tar pit. I t think when you start spending too many points beyond the commisar, a vox and maybe some melta bombs, so start going down a slippery slope of inefficiency.

This unit is big enough to tar pit, hold an objective and take up enough space to not let you opponent score. It's also big enough to hold multiple objectives.

This view changes a bit if your fielding straken, but blob squad work well as a scoring tar pit.

One thing I want to mention as a tactic is combined charges. Oppenents usually forget that IG can be so bold as to charge, and with MOVE MOVE MOVE, you can get the jump on people.

A huge tactic is multi charging high toughness and low toughness. Take Eldar or nids. Charge the guants and a some big bugs and if you win combat you are forcing armor saves on the wraith lords or big bugs. That's huge and a very effective way to chew through high toughness models.

Plus end game you can kill the commisar, break the squad and shoot the stuff you've been tying up. Then use orders to auto regroup, and score again.

Pete

I personally wouldn't run a blob squad, but I definately think it should be kept pretty bare with few upgrades. I think running conscripts would be much more cheaper and efficient at tar pitting enemies and staying on objectives, and when they die its not like your taking a big loss.

I'd much rather run seperate squads with a heavy weapon and grenade launcher, that way I can put fire on the enemy with a few of them. If I nedd to bog an enemy unit down, I can throw one in an assult.

I just remember last toury I went my first game against IG, He had a 30 man squad, I charged him thur a bottle neck postion( with five scouts), Didnt realize i charge two differnt units( one a ten man squad of veterns too).

I won combat i inflicted 10 wounds to his four. My sgt ran down the rest of them... i though it was funny.

So basicly my Scout Sgt, won the game for me.

Next turn I was facing three auto cannons and three hvy bolters.....
Sgt lives to this day still...

deFl0 wrote:My thoughts on the blob squad is that it's a great scoring tar pit. I t think when you start spending too many points beyond the commisar, a vox and maybe some melta bombs, so start going down a slippery slope of inefficiency.

This unit is big enough to tar pit, hold an objective and take up enough space to not let you opponent score. It's also big enough to hold multiple objectives.

This view changes a bit if your fielding straken, but blob squad work well as a scoring tar pit.

One thing I want to mention as a tactic is combined charges. Oppenents usually forget that IG can be so bold as to charge, and with MOVE MOVE MOVE, you can get the jump on people.

A huge tactic is multi charging high toughness and low toughness. Take Eldar or nids. Charge the guants and a some big bugs and if you win combat you are forcing armor saves on the wraith lords or big bugs. That's huge and a very effective way to chew through high toughness models.

Plus end game you can kill the commisar, break the squad and shoot the stuff you've been tying up. Then use orders to auto regroup, and score again.

Pete

You bring up a lot of good ideas. Ultimately with the blob squad, you really gotta look at what its going to do for you, and focus on that. As far as upgrades, I'd focus on things that are more cost-effective in a big squad- for example, a Comissar. Another thing to realize is that the 'bubble' abilities (command range, Ld bonus from Commisar Lord) only need to be in range of one model in the squad. With a huge honkin' squad that gets really easy. Put the Commisar Lord/Command Squad in a Chimera, now its even easier to stay in range because you are measuring from the hull of the Chimera to the nearest guy in the blob squad.

Some other fun things to try in a casual game

-Have Creed give the whole mass Scout and have them outflank to flood the opponent's backfield with bodies

-Give sarges kraks and try to get in multiple assault with 2 vehicles

Well, I'm a long-time IG player and a consistent user of the blob. My basic 2K army starts with two 35-man platoons for my Troops. One 30 man blob with autocannons, one with lascannons, both get vox, commissar, power weapons and meltabombs. They're great as screening units for my tanks and other units, they can absorb a charge from almost any unit out there and kill it, and with Creed or Straken, they become good assault units. An untouched unit would get 16 ST4 power weapon attacks and 51 regular ST 4 attacks, at Init 4. And yes, they come standard with frags. Sure, they can die, and yes, it's possible that they will fail a reroll on a LD 9, but that's the dice. And if you decide it's time for them to get out of the way so you can shoot whatever they are locked in combat with, you take the commissar as a casualty..............

@Don Mondo:

What else do you run, or how would you run blob squads @ 1500pts?? I am curious as I have a crap ton of IG Catachans that I would love to use in various forms, such as vets or blob squads.

I personally am a big advoate of the blob squad. I treat mine as the building block o0f my army, not the throwaway tarpit/speedbump unit. The important thing to remember is the amount of firepower to resources you have. 1 order affects all of them, 1 commissar ensures your high leadership, 1 vox gives you the reroll. Now ask yourself, what do I want to accomplish. Say light tank hunting, put in the 5 autocannons. 1 ld 9 rerolled order of bring it down puts 10 tl s 7 shots, good deal, with about 30 guys guarding and 10 handling various asks like the sergents and special weapon carriers.

Say I'm dealing with hordes, rockets, mortars, HBs, many options heavy wise. Grenades, flamers, more for special. Frfsrf, and you've got some dead hordes. maybe a spot of objective holding, drop incoming and bang, 4+ save.

Remember that the most expensive you can make this if you kit it out is only 440 pts(lascannons and meltas), that leaves 1060 points for protection from blasts and flamers, or even worse, kitted out as light troops gets you a 340 point squad (mortars, grenades or flamers) and you take 3 of them. The rest is dedicated protect their asses, russes and what not.

Remember, a squad that much is not to heavy but not throwaway either, protect it properly and it will achieve whatever you want

i see the most use for this formation in appocalypse where the size of the unit becomes less of an issue and you can take 4 or more of them without using up points



i think this unit might have a place in normal games, but i doubt having more then 1 is wise

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:@Don Mondo:

What else do you run, or how would you run blob squads @ 1500pts?? I am curious as I have a crap ton of IG Catachans that I would love to use in various forms, such as vets or blob squads.

At 1500, you have to whittle it down a bit, last time I played that low it was 25 man with autocannons, 35 man with lascannons, backed up by command squad, DH Inq, Callidus, Psyker Battle Squad w/chimera, Executioner, and Colossus. At 2K, I bump back to 2 x 35-man, usually add a Vanquisher with Pask , lotsa heavy armor (read Land Raider) fanatics where I'm at, and add chimeras to the command squad and one PCS. Posted a standard 2K list in the IG Cheese thread in this forum.

Hello,

I can tell that most of the thinking and argumentation being done here is only theoritical.

I actually use those big 50 guardsmen blob squads in every game i play. My army is built around them.

I have been testing them in various scenarios and against several competitives opponents, in about 20 - 25 games or so. So i got some experience off it.

Short story: They work. More then that: They are very effective, and have very few weaknesses. Great unit that are so worth their points. Used well, they can enable you to win many games and enjoy a different playstyle with the imperial guards. But their few weaknesses are big, terrifying ones, so learn to deal with them.

At first, i transitionned from the 4th Edition Imperial Guards (were i was fielding large amount of conscripts). I got in fifth edition quite a lot of time after it came out (break due to school), and so i decided to test one of those squads carefully and with much aprehension. I didnt think they would work very well, especially after everyone on forums and blogs seemed to find the idea silly and uneffective. But i am allergic to banality and i cant handle playing an army the way everyone else does it. Since everyone seemed to play imperial guards locked in chimeras, i built mine around a 50 guardsmen squad and colonel Straken ''To give 'em some inspiration''.

I swiftly learned that the unit biggest strenght, beside its fighting capacity, is that no one seem to have a clue how to handle it (including tournament veterans). Most assault-happy armies are used to fear assaulting a small IG squad and wiping it on the charge the most, as they get shot back immediatly after consolidating. Or so i assume, becose when they see a big, huge 50 man squad, they tend to gleefully send the very first assault unit that can get in range charging at it without waiting backup, with a smile on their face, and act surprised when it get massacred by the numbers. This long line of guards is foolproof. With Straken giving the countercharge (and a little bit of luck), it can protect your army from any and all threat other then 3 things: Flamers, Assaulting Walkers and Tank Shock. But that`s really it. I have been charged by Orks, Khorne Berserkers, Tyrranids, anything. They wont always win but they will never die off unexpectedly without inflicting horrible causualities.

This is mostly becose all the close combat weapons sergents and commisars, and all the special weapons, survive untill the end. So, you can take the charge of whatever, even if they have the initiative, and loose little of your fighting power. Also, as someone said earlier, orders and voxes get magnified a lot. I now field two of those legions, even in 1500 points game (they really ARE my army). One of them is equipped with 5 melta guns and stand back. The other is equipped either with nothing or with 5 Laser Cannons and stand foward (it seem weird, but it work). Those team both have a vox, and when they get ordered to shoot on my target or to bring it down, they destroy what they are firing upon. Just last game as an example, that tyranid player was overly exited to see so many models on the ground for his Mawlock. During the two first turn, and aided by a Vendetta, Both the 5 lasercannon team and the 5 melta team were pretty much one-shotting a monstruous creature each per shooting phase. When the Mawlock came out, it destroyed a Chimera (irrelevant to this topic) and a whooping 4 guardsmen, oh noes! The same squad (that was supposedly ''weak'' against that Mawlock then rapid shotted with the help of an order on it. 5 melta shots and 80 lasguns or so that were twin linked. It went trough it 6 wounds in one shot.

It is POSSIBLE in theory to screw a big squad in many ways. A tank shock would ruin the unit. Flamers cause horrible causualities. A Dreadnough that get to charge is very hard to get rid of, even with the melta bombs. But in truth, no one really ever get to that unless in the rarest of occasions. That is becose, since the squad dammage output in ranged combat is so scary to everything, they tend to immediatly trow whatever is in range on it. A flanking unit of genestealer is in range? Make it charge, fast! Lock them in melle! I dont care if there is just 8 of them! Shoot the templates, any templates! Etc . . . The truth is, anything that is really scary to a 50 man squad filled to the theets with meltas close to another armed with lascannons is something mechanical, or monstuous, or some sort of high toughness or high armor vehicules. And hey, meltas and cannons will one shot any of those if they get a turn to do so. So, untill now, they never dissapointed.


Edit: The ONLY time someone actually managed to chew trough those lines with infantry was when i had the displeasure to play against an army of Chaos Space Marines. You guessed it, Two lashes and all the rest were Khornes berserkers, Defiler and Obliterators. On the very first turn (he started), he lashed the closest blob once, then a second time, just far enough in no mans land to charge at it with like, the whole army made of Khorne Berserkers (after shooting, of course). The other 50 man team joined the pile with straken furious charge and it resulted in a big, huge slaugher that certainly must have pleased Khorne very much. Long story short, i lost. But the only thing that came out of the fight in the end were two Berserkers (models, not squads), a Daemon prince, and thats it. (Hat`s off to the last man standing, a sergant that ended up all alone after the marines hits, and managed to trow his melta bomb on the mint defiler (engaged in melle), destroy it, survive the explosion and pass his leadership test. He will be remembered as the most badass imperial guard sergent ever). Still, in such disadvantageous circonstances, they did well enough.