The big 5th edition stiff to nid players making their old models unplayable is bad for business.

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**bosky**

The Green Git wrote:GW isn't in the gaming business. They are in the model making business.

Why would it surprise you that they change the game rules to sell more models?

This needs to be repeated and acknowledged, because this is the cause.

**Kanluwen**

bosky wrote:
The Green Git wrote:GW isn't in the gaming business. They are in the model making business.

Why would it surprise you that they change the game rules to sell more models?

This needs to be repeated and acknowledged, because this is the cause.

Except, once again, the things really "hurt" by this were abominations that had no fluff basis and were the brainchild of powergaming basement dwellers.

**bosky**

Kanluwen wrote:
bosky wrote:
The Green Git wrote:GW isn't in the gaming business. They are in the model making business.

Why would it surprise you that they change the game rules to sell more models?

This needs to be repeated and acknowledged, because this is the cause.

Except, once again, the things really "hurt" by this were abominations that had no fluff basis and were the brainchild of powergaming basement dwellers.

More than just overpowered combinations need to be repurchased each codex or ruleset revision. Then again I prefer a stable set of rules like the unchanging 1980s core of Battletech as compared to versions that feel completely different and never that great, so don't listen to me.

**Davor**

Actually I am thinking of going back to Battletech right now. I am doing my reaserch and went to their web site and downloaded the free rules and history they give out. Not much has really changed, but they did add abit to flesh out the rules more. I might as well invest my money into Battletech so I know I can use everything in 5 years time, not like GW where I have to remake or rebuy everything every 2 1/2 years. 2 years for rules set, then 2 years for new codex, then it seems to be 2 years again with new rules set.

**Skinnattittar**

Some people have only been in 40k as long as the Nidzilla lists have existed. So they think that those ARE the Tyranids, which I think was mostly just an accident of the game designers, because that was horrendous.

**Howard A Treesong**

Kirika wrote:I understand GW makes money by selling you shiny new models but making your old models just unplayable is just wrong and bad business sense.

Warmachine/Hordes did it better up up till when they came out with MKII where your old Behemoth was still his good old self even if the better Beast 09 came out that was better then the old Behemoth. You could still play with your old behemoth without having to take off his arms and make new ones.

Business model should be make new shiny thing for you to buy not make your old stuff unplayable.

Yes I know about magnets but thats not always feasible especially on smaller models.

For Example in the 5th edition codex the following things that many of us had modeled are not even legal anymore.

The old Gunfex (venom cannon, barb strangler carnifex)

Genestealers with flesh hooks

Spine fist termagaunts are no longer the default cheapest termagaunts so those spinefist termagaunts you had for scoring without number broods are now worthless since you would never take spinefists over fleshborers. (not very happy here as I have alot of old style termagaunts with spinefists and you can't exactly magnetize these without alot of work.)

I don't mind they make a unit more expensive pointswise to make something else more attractive to buy like Carnifexs got expensive points wise to promote people buying Trygon/Mawlocs but to make your old gunfex unplayable without modification is just bad. You spent good money on a model should be able to play it. As it is I gonna rip off the gunfex arms and make a custom huge cannon (rupture cannon) and put on scything talons and call it a tyranofex but if you don't have the know how to making mods your stuck.

GW does this alot remove old models from the codex or just otherwise make them unplayable. This is bad for business because you paid money for the model and can no longer use it and people get fed up with that. I understand nerfing units to make them more balanced or worse so people play them less but please don't make our models unplayable.

I take it you're new to the hobby?

Some people have had whole armies wiped out of existance, there's one particular example but...[Text Removed By Order of the Inquisition]

**Iron_Chaos_Brute**

n0t_u wrote:counts as.

If (like me) you use the white background, this looks...of dubious family-friendliness.

**helgrenze**

Kanluwen wrote:People who cry about Squats deserve what they got.

You've had decades to get over being butthurt, yet you STILL whine about it like you got dumped at the prom.

Annnd the point was missed. I wasnt "crying" about what happened. I was illustrating a point. Squat players have adapted to the situation, more or less successfully, over the years. You think that real armies started crying when tanks appeared for the first time on a battlefield? or when their old reliable single shot rifles were outdated by carbines?

Honestly, the game changes. Adapt or expire.

**Kanluwen**

helgrenze wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:People who cry about Squats deserve what they got.

You've had decades to get over being butthurt, yet you STILL whine about it like you got dumped at the prom.

Annnd the point was missed. I wasnt "crying" about what happened. I was illustrating a point. Squat players have adapted to the situation, more or less successfully, over the years. You think that real armies started crying when tanks appeared for the first time on a battlefield? or when their old reliable single shot rifles were outdated by carbines?

Honestly, the game changes. Adapt or expire.

Sorry then. The tone of the post seemed to be a whine, and there tends to be a few of the Squat folks who come in pissing and moaning whenever a new Codex is released.

**Fexor**

Honestly, I've been playing my Nids since 3rd edition, I have and will always love Swarm.

Yes, I did have a Sniper-Fex for fun in the last itteration of the codex, and yes I have broken off his limbs and yes I will be buying magnets soon. But so what? I love playing the game that's what makes it fun for me, I love seeing the models painted and done, enjoying the game with friends and new gamers alike. Does it suck that I have to brake them to make them playable sure, but in all honesty I was expecting this. As it's been said the old Carnifex was broken like Eddy from Tekken or Rogues/DK's are in WoW. (yeah I know I'm showing my nerdiness badly at the moment, I play sports I swear, lol.) Anyways, it's a hobby, if you're getting into this with the idea its like a board game, then you need to stop where you are and go back to Toys'R'us and pick up some Hasbro games and play Chutes and Ladders with your sister.

I'm not trying to be mean, but this is a hobby first, then a game. If you're looking at this as a game first and then a hobby, then I forsee you being very dissappointed and wasting a lot of money.

**Kanluwen**

Rogues are broken? If by broken you mean poorly designed and stuck in the same rut over and over and over again of having to find some gimmick spec to compete--you're right.
If by broken you mean overpowered, you have to play a Warlock

Is part of the whole reason I stopped playing about 6-7 months ago(start of the whole Icecrown Citadel shenanigans) and haven't looked back.
/offtopic off.

But yeah. The old Sniperfex was ridiculous.

**Kirasu**

Counts-as fixes problems as it was designed to do

All your spinegaunts count as whatever you want.. Long as its uniform, who cares :p

I got like 30k points worth of models and I'll still use counts as. Basically it boils down to this, find ways to play the game or find ways to not play the game. I enjoy playing games, i dont make excuses to NOT play

**Fexor**

Kanluwen wrote:Rogues are broken? If by broken you mean poorly designed and stuck in the same rut over and over and over again of having to find some gimmick spec to compete--you're right.
If by broken you mean overpowered, you have to play a Warlock
Is part of the whole reason I stopped playing about 6-7 months ago(start of the whole Icecrown Citadel shenanigans) and haven't looked back.
/offtopic off.

But yeah. The old Sniperfex was ridiculous.

/Offtopic ONLINE
Nah, rogue stuns are still pretty OP. And my Mains a Lock, I don't feel very OP. *shrug* oh well, I'm waiting to see the next expansion before I decide to stay or leave, most likely I'll quit, but who knows.
/Offtopic OFFLINE

Sniper-Fex's were fun, but really not meant for the game or that beast, S9 (or 10 with upgrade) just made his melee so beastly, I loved it.

**Kanluwen**

/offtopic ON!
Rogue stuns were only OP against cloth, and only then if there's no healer present. Some of the casters when I left had such ridiculous potential defenses it was just stupid.
I wasn't meaning Warlocks are OP, however there were some situations where I found them to be just stupid(Chaos Bolt cutting through Cloak of Shadows like it was an immunity, when it was nerfed explicitly to make Cloak a gamble, rather than immunity being the prime example).
/offtopic OFF!

And what was the deal with those damned Lictors? I never ONCE saw them on the field.

**doubled**

You will not see lictors unless it is to late, thats is why you are around to type the question.

**Fateweaver**

/offtopic on

I want to start a goblin when the expansion comes out

/offtopic off

I still really don't get how models are unplayable? Did you buy a steel carnifex and weld your arms on? Did yours come molded as a one piece model that just so happened to have BS/VC molded onto the body?

Again, how is something easily changed unusable?

**Adamah**

it is annoying, however I can't count the number of times i've pulled arms/heads/weapons off of models and changed to something else. As a dark eldar player I live in fear every day of going the way of the squat, but you just gotta adapt and I have to say that with the game going strong since 1987 at least you don't have to worry about the entire fanbase going out of existence.

**helgrenze**

Adamah wrote:with the game going strong since 1987 at least you don't have to worry about the entire fanbase going out of existence.

Unless they get bought out by Hasbro........

**Fexor**

helgrenze wrote:
Adamah wrote:with the game going strong since 1987 at least you don't have to worry about the entire fanbase going out of existence.

Unless they get bought out by Hasbro........

*shudders* Why would you suggest such blasphemy!?!?

Gosh, I can't remember who bought out the Battletech series but the new little miniature game they released KILLED Battletech so glad I still have my old Battletech boardgame and source books.

...

Lictor's uhm... were pretty much useless in the last codex aside from the Pheromone Trail Special Rule, other than that useless. Now they're a bit better at stalking a prey and I think they're going to be fun.

...

Off topic/

Definitely making a Worgen something, not sure what yet.

Off topic/

**Kirika**

I been playing awhile since 1997 and I'm just getting sick of them removing things. I understand whole armies went bye bye and thats bad for the game someone bought this whole army and its now useless?

I had an Craftworld Iyanden Eldar army with Iyanna Arenniel and it wasn't even that good but I did the cool conversion for her and I liked painting and converting the army then what they they do take craftworlds and Iyanna out in 4th. bleh.

GW can sell shiny new models by making them really good or look awesome. They don't have to remove the old stuff to do that.

**H.B.M.C.**

Fexor wrote:Gosh, I can't remember who bought out the Battletech series but the new little miniature game they released KILLED Battletech so glad I still have my old Battletech boardgame and source books.

Been living under a rock? MechWarrior: Dark Age is long gone. And BattleTech sure as hell ain't dead.