Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ailaros wrote:Every time someone asks this question, I feel obliged to give the same response.

Don't listen to hackneyed stereotypes from versions long gone. Guard have plenty of close combat ability. BA have plenty of shooting. Orks can have plenty of both.

Really, any army (except for perhaps tau) can do CC well, and any army (except perhaps demons) can do shooting well.

There is no "the" best shooting army and "the" best close combat army. 40k may be a somewhat shallow game, but it's not THAT two-dimensional.

Except for SM, all armies have their specialties, while guard are sort of able to inflict some CC casualties, and Nids CAN shoot (in theory), they have a play style that is ideal for them, and are generally better at their area of expertise then a balanced army would be.

For CC?

Most armies in the game can do CC well. Aside from vanilla SM's and maybe non-Deathwing DA, most SM armies are generally CC oriented, though they still retain varying levels of shooting competency. Orks of course are great at CC, as are Tyranids. Daemons are great when they get into CC but are often rather hamstrung. DE can be very good at it.

Really, I don't know if there is a "best" CC army.




Now, for shooting, it's easy.

Imperial Guard. That is all. Nobody is going to outshoot a competent IG army, and few can compete on the attrition basis. Trying to beat an IG army through just shooting is probably the best way to lose a game.

After that, again there are varying levels of competency and lots of armies can do shooting well. Tau are obviously designed as a very shooting heavy force, but lack the raw volume of firepower and reach in 5th edition. In 4E they probably were the best, but in 5E it's not unusual to see even supposedly CC oriented SM armies outshooting Tau.


Now, for probably the most "well rounded"? As in, able to do decent shooting and great CC? I'd go with Space Wolves and Blood Angels, which is rather silly that they are capable of being so shooty given their archetypes as heavily CC oriented armies, but they both can be very shooty. SW's because of Razorback spam+ hideously underpriced Long Fangs, and BA's because they can bring heavy tanks to the field almost as much as IG (also, kinda odd given the archetype of a jump pack assault army, thank you Mr. Ward...) in addition to assault troops in Razorbacks.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:No one can ever say tau is the best shooting army when they have BS3 base...

They were in 4th edition and they were still BS3 base. IG are BS3 base and are undeniably the shootiest army in the game.

Vaktathi wrote:

Now, for shooting, it's easy.

Imperial Guard. That is all. Nobody is going to outshoot a competent IG army, and few can compete on the attrition basis. Trying to beat an IG army through just shooting is probably the best way to lose a game.

Not necessarily true. I've out shot IG more often than not w/Tau, and as I think i mentioned earlier, IG and Tau are good for different things. If your facing MEqs, Tau will out perform IG to the power of ten. Guard, with their sheer volume of fire, are good for hordes.

BTW, while playing tau, i have never been out shot by SM, or any MEqs for that matter.

Ever.

Railgun 'nuff said

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Now, for shooting, it's easy.

Imperial Guard. That is all. Nobody is going to outshoot a competent IG army, and few can compete on the attrition basis. Trying to beat an IG army through just shooting is probably the best way to lose a game.

Not necessarily true. I've out shot IG more often than not w/Tau, and as I think i mentioned earlier, IG and Tau are good for different things. If your facing MEqs, Tau will out perform IG to the power of ten. Guard, with their sheer volume of fire, are good for hordes.

BTW, while playing tau, i have never been out shot by SM, or any MEqs for that matter.

Ever.

Railgun 'nuff said

I play Tau as well as IG. I've yet to lose to Tau in 5E with my IG, and I can guarantee you between Battle Cannons, Plasma/Meltavets, Vendettas, gobs of S6+shooting to wound MEQ's on 2's and pop AV11 along with autocannons, and a far higher model count, I have a much easier time with MEQ's than Tau armies do.

Railguns also only go so far, especially if you aren't spamming 3 full units of Broadsides.

EDIT: Not trying to hate on Tau, as I said, I do *play* Tau as well, it's just that they really don't hold a candle to IG right now, they're basically where IG were 4 years ago.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Now, for shooting, it's easy.

Imperial Guard. That is all. Nobody is going to outshoot a competent IG army, and few can compete on the attrition basis. Trying to beat an IG army through just shooting is probably the best way to lose a game.

Not necessarily true. I've out shot IG more often than not w/Tau, and as I think i mentioned earlier, IG and Tau are good for different things. If your facing MEqs, Tau will out perform IG to the power of ten. Guard, with their sheer volume of fire, are good for hordes.

BTW, while playing tau, i have never been out shot by SM, or any MEqs for that matter.

Ever.

Railgun 'nuff said

I play Tau as well as IG. I've yet to lose to Tau in 5E with my IG, and I can guarantee you between Battle Cannons, Plasma/Meltavets, Vendettas, gobs of S6+shooting to wound MEQ's on 2's and pop AV11 along with autocannons, and a far higher model count, I have a much easier time with MEQ's than Tau armies do.

Railguns also only go so far, especially if you aren't spamming 3 full units of Broadsides.

EDIT: Not trying to hate on Tau, as I said, I do *play* Tau as well, it's just that they really don't hold a candle to IG right now, they're basically where IG were 4 years ago.

Most of what you said was true, but Tau are more versatile than IG has ever/will ever be.

Dark Eldar isn't bad for a shootie army only problem is that there all paper thin.

I have to say nids or orks are the best close combat armies in the game and maybe the grey knights now

im2randomghgh wrote:
Most of what you said was true, but Tau are more versatile than IG has ever/will ever be.

LOLWHUT?
Tau are in no way "versatile". They have a handful of decent units and can play approximately ONE style.
IG is full of good builds and can play the super shooty or CC route. How does Tau do good CC? Kroot and vespids don't really count (though Kroot make good bubblewrap).

For best Shooty, I say IG. Sheer volume of Lasgun fire comined with the IG infantrys outstanding ability to hold thier ground and dig in, and the crushing power of IG tanks, attempting to beat IG in a shooting war is almost always suicide.

For best CC, I'm going to have to go with Nid's, with BA running close in second. I think what wins Nid's out for me is Hormies with TS and AG. thats 10 points for a unit that has 4+ poison and has a chance to glance most vheicles with 3 attacks on the charge and gets 3 dice to decide how far it runs, and these guys come in hordes. Assault Marine BA troops may be devastating in CC, but they are not able to inflict the kind of damage that those Hormies could.

I'm also accounting for the fact that all of the Tyranid guns are Assault weapons and most of them have fleet, which means they won't be hindered by shooting or running getting into CC.

I could also go on and point out the Ravener, Genestealer, Bonesword shrikes, LW/BS Hive Tyrant, Venomethrope, Trygon, and Carnifex are stellar CC units, but then again, Death Company and the Furioso Dreadnaught are also stellar in CC. Tyranids, however, win out in the end, even if its a close race.

jmurph wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Most of what you said was true, but Tau are more versatile than IG has ever/will ever be.

LOLWHUT?
Tau are in no way "versatile". They have a handful of decent units and can play approximately ONE style.
IG is full of good builds and can play the super shooty or CC route. How does Tau do good CC? Kroot and vespids don't really count (though Kroot make good bubblewrap).

I'm sorry i can't hear you over all that stupid.

Tau can go full out Anti-I horde style if you keep out all their awesome wargear to make them cheap.
Or you can opt for More Battlesuits and have the best Jump Infantry in the game
Or you can go anti-tank
or you can go DF heavy and drop your FW, shoot, and retreat
Or you can spam XV88s
Or you can make a Mech army
or you can go auxilliary heavy
or you can play stealth suit/ PF heavy army
or you can make the army-altering choice: O'Shaserra/ O'Shovah
or you can go for honour guard FW who, with ML, have BS 5 w/Str5 Ap3. Isn't that a scary prospect? 140pts for 24 with those stats that 20 hits. per turn. IG suck.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Most of what you said was true, but Tau are more versatile than IG has ever/will ever be.

If this were 4E, I might agree, when IG actually had a rather limited unit selection, and more Tau units were competitive.

Now? IG has a weapon and platform for literally everything. Specialized anti-skimmer flak tanks, Ap3 ignores cover ordnance that wounds marines on 2's, scatter rerolling anti-horde ordnance, fast skimmers with that can Scout or Outflank with tons of lascannons and carry melta/plasma infantry, HQ upgrades that can aid your reserves and hinder a foes, huge flexibility in the deployment and utilization of Troops (blob platoons, MSU infantry platoons, mechanized platoons, hybrid platoons, mechvets, Valkvets, etc), Troops units that can literally present a reasonable threat to any unit.

Look at a Mechvets unit. A multilaser/Heavy Flamer chimera presents a credible anti-infantry threat and can engage AV10/11 across the board, while the infantry inside can fire out with melta and/or plasma weaponry to engage MC's/Heavy Infantry/Tanks, and pack one of a selection of heavy weapons to engage just about anything.

The IG have more weapon types than any other army, more units types than any other army too IIRC. Hell, IG have more Ordnance type weapons than Necrons have all types of ranged weapons.

im2randomghgh wrote:
I'm sorry i can't hear you over all that stupid.

Tau can go full out Anti-I horde style if you keep out all their awesome wargear to make them cheap.
Or you can opt for More Battlesuits and have the best Jump Infantry in the game
Or you can go anti-tank
or you can go DF heavy and drop your FW, shoot, and retreat
Or you can spam XV88s
Or you can make a Mech army
or you can go auxilliary heavy
or you can play stealth suit/ PF heavy army
or you can make the army-altering choice: O'Shaserra/ O'Shovah
or you can go for honour guard FW who, with ML, have BS 5 w/Str5 Ap3. Isn't that a scary prospect? 140pts for 24 with those stats that 20 hits. per turn. IG suck.

uhh....most of these aren't distinct army types. Mech armies can also spam max Crisis suits with Max Railguns.

going "anti-tank" or "anti-horde" doesn't really mean anything, most armies can tailor, and IG can beat the pants off Tau in a pure AT or Anti-Horde battle. I'll see your 9 Railguns and dozen or so Fusion Blasters and raise you 30 Lascannons and a dozen meltaguns for the same points.



If you want to break it down that way, IG can do much the same thing, in fact I can cut/paste many of those directly.

IG can go full out Anti-I horde style *without* needing to keep out all their awesome wargear to make them cheap.
*AND* you can go anti-tank at the same time.

You can go Veteran heavy
You can go Mechanized Veteran heavy
You can go Airborne Veteran heavy
You can go Blob Platoon heavy
You can go MSU Infantry platoon heavy
You can go Mech Platoon heavy
You can go Airborne Platoon heavy
You can go Penal Legion heavy
You can go Mech/Footslogger Hybrid
You can go Vet/Platoon Hybrid
You can go etc ad nauseum and I haven't even gotten out of the Troops selections yet.

Okay let's start simple: Fast Attack

PF are arguably the best scouts in the game.
Tetras are the lightest, most versatile vehicles i can think of
Vespid. Meh.
Piranhas are great AT for their pts.
Gun Drone squadrons are a great, quick, unique unit.

And (aside from tetras) I haven't even gotten to FW yet. Your turn.

im2randomghgh wrote:Okay let's start simple: Fast Attack

PF are arguably the best scouts in the game.

How so exactly?

Tetras are the lightest, most versatile vehicles i can think of

If we're gonna bring FW into this, then we're basically doubling the number of things the IG get to play with here, is that a comparison you want to make? That said, it's not cheap for a single pulse rifle and markerlight, in addition to being open topped. Pirhana's are much better IMO.

Piranhas are great AT for their pts.

They aren't bad at all, true, but they also aren't exactly the hardest things to kill and require being at practically point blank range to do their job. While definitely good units, IG area also relatively easily able to counter them with similar units that aren't exactly even seen as good within the IG army. Autocannon sentinels spring to mind. Vendettas of course make Pirhana's very sad.

Gun Drone squadrons are a great, quick, unique unit.

Unique? Sure. But great? 12ppm for a single S5 18" one shot BS2 TL'd gun and a 4+ armor save? Not exactly the scariest, or hardiest of units. Not cheap for what they do.

And (aside from tetras) I haven't even gotten to FW yet. Your turn.

Do we really want to bring in Heavy Mortars, Quad Launcher Thudd Guns, Engineers, Salamanders, Centaurs, Cyclops, Tauros, Tauros Venator, Hades drills, Thunderer's, Destroyer Tank Hunters, Leman Russ Annihilators, Bombards, Vultures Gunships, etc into this?


Lets look at the IG fast attack, probably the weakest section after Elites, without Forgeworld.

Valkyrie. Amazing transport, great anti-horde firepower. Can deliver melta toting infantry to double-pen and assault range on the first turn with a Scout move, or Outflank.

Vendetta, does everything the Valkyrie does but with Three Twin Linked Lascannons for an absurdly low price point. Not much needs to be said about this sillyness.

Hellhound-A Fast tank that gets to throw a flamer template that annihilates anything not in Power Armor, and also mounts either a Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer or Multi Melta

Devil Dog- A fast tank with a Melta blast weapon and can pack an additional hull mounted multi-melta, posing a threat to any tank in the game as well as heavy infantry.

Banewolf- A hellhound that trades its ability to toss the template for AP3.

Sentinels-meh

Armored Sentinels-Cheap tarpits to hold enemy units in CC forever unless they're packing something that can reliably penetrate AV12.

Rought Riders - meh for the most part, but awesome count-charge reaction units.

Vaktathi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Okay let's start simple: Fast Attack

PF are arguably the best scouts in the game.

How so exactly? Every single one of them has a built in ML 'Nuff said. Plus RR

Tetras are the lightest, most versatile vehicles i can think of

If we're gonna bring FW into this, then we're basically doubling the number of things the IG get to play with here, is that a comparison you want to make? That said, it's not cheap for a single pulse rifle and markerlight, in addition to being open topped. Pirhana's are much better IMO.

Tetras are good because they are so small no one EVER bothers firing at them unless they are directing SMS fire. THAT is why.

Piranhas are great AT for their pts.

They aren't bad at all, true, but they also aren't exactly the hardest things to kill and require being at practically point blank range to do their job. While definitely good units, IG area also relatively easily able to counter them with similar units that aren't exactly even seen as good within the IG army. Autocannon sentinels spring to mind. Vendettas of course make Pirhana's very sad.

Same thing as tetras but a bit heavier. Rarely fired upon. On an unrelated note, I like painting them

im2randomghgh wrote:

your forgetting the fact that a single markerlight adds an extra BS to the entire squad and that each and every additional markerlight reduces coversave by one.

And you are forgetting the fact that the single markerlight as a 50% chance to hit, is either in a squad of pathfinders, which are dead by turn two or three at latest and are a huge points sink, Or that marker drones are very expensive and unless in two units in the army CAN'T move and shoot the flashlight.

Tau are not, by any stretch, the best shooting army in 5th ed. Railguns? Whoope! You can take 9 at most, which is around 750 points. For 9 models. With no invun. In decent armor, but die to anything in melee.

Markerlights as a whole are now by logic flawed. If the tau got a free chance for one to hit from each infantry unit, then it would be ok. Guard get their free orders that effectively increase their units by at least 50%, if not more. And their units are cheaper and by comparision, more effective.

Guard can hold their own in melee. Tau are a flipping house made of toothpicks in melee.

Guard tanks are 500 times better than tau ones. Piranhas aren't even that special, heard of Valkyries and vendettas?

Guard can put more anti tank weapons in a single force allocation slot than the tau can field using all the slots.

Guard have ranged weapons that ignore cover and kill MEQ dead. We need two units to do that, and even then our best range is a measly 24 inches, with 12 be optimal.

Guard don't suffer from having the worst unit in the game, the ethereal. They also have a codex were everything is worth taking, while half the tau codex is either broken or other units do it better.


I understand you may like tau. I do, I really enjoy my tau. However I understand in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium there is only one ranged master, guard.

I'm going to chime in on the Imperial Guard over Tau argument here. If you ask me (and this is just my ophinion) the Tau's exceptional shooting skills seem a bit like a "Gimmick", as in the entire army is centered around this idea that Tau are the best at what they do, so the army runs completly on that gimmick as a whole. Admittedly, however, Tau are great at shooting.

The Imperial Guards exceptional shooting skills, however, seem much less "Gimmick" ish, and their shooting skills don't come from the fact that "we are the best shooters ever!", it comes from the Guards ability to dig into and hold thier ground, and pretty much unleash an insane torrent of fire, and everything clicks together so well in a guard army that it makes guard the best shooting based army for the game.

Which I kinda find dissapointing, the Tau are almost specifically built for being the best shooters, yet are in all honesty rather shallow in those shooting abilities at times.

Swiftblade wrote:I'm going to chime in on the Imperial Guard over Tau argument here. If you ask me (and this is just my ophinion) the Tau's exceptional shooting skills seem a bit like a "Gimmick", as in the entire army is centered around this idea that Tau are the best at what they do, so the army runs completly on that gimmick as a whole. Admittedly, however, Tau are great at shooting.

The Imperial Guards exceptional shooting skills, however, seem much less "Gimmick" ish, and their shooting skills don't come from the fact that "we are the best shooters ever!", it comes from the Guards ability to dig into and hold thier ground, and pretty much unleash an insane torrent of fire, and everything clicks together so well in a guard army that it makes guard the best shooting based army for the game.

Which I kinda find dissapointing, the Tau are almost specifically built for being the best shooters, yet are in all honesty rather shallow in those shooting abilities at times.

im2randomghgh wrote:forgeworld battlesuit image

And that model is a forge world battlesuit with experimental rules not found in the official 40k tau codex. I can't pop out an image of, say, a titan, if I was trying to explain how awesome spaz marines are. Nor can I load the rules for the nercon tomb stalker and state that nercons are baller.

Tau were good, but now cover saves came around and thought otherwise. 5th was the nail in the coffin for the current tau book, while it still works, it's no were near as good as it was. Also the newer codex (creep) hasn't helped, though a good tau player can win often enough. Ask an eldar player how they feel.

juraigamer wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:forgeworld battlesuit image

And that model is a forge world battlesuit with experimental rules not found in the official 40k tau codex. I can't pop out an image of, say, a titan, if I was trying to explain how awesome spaz marines are. Nor can I load the rules for the nercon tomb stalker and state that nercons are baller.

Tau were good, but now cover saves came around and thought otherwise. 5th was the nail in the coffin for the current tau book, while it still works, it's no were near as good as it was. Also the newer codex (creep) hasn't helped, though a good tau player can win often enough. Ask an eldar player how they feel.

Not necessarily, the cover thing i mean. Even broadsides, when equipped with A.S.S.s can position themselves so as to deny saves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to admit tho, XV9-04 with Phase Rifles (rifles? or guns? blasters? something like that) looks badass to the extreme.

Wych Cult builds are pretty awesome in CC. Especially Beastmaster units.

Best shooting is a scary tie between Guard and Tau.

9 broadsides with targetlock on leaders equates to 6 vehicles being hit by S10 AP 1 twinlinked weps... with a buttload of shield drones for return fire.

9 Vendettas is 27 twinlinked S9 weps on a fast moving death machine that can fire at upwards of 3 targets per turn.

Assualt Armies is a bit more complicated... Sheer number nids rock face but Khorne Zerkers, Orkz, and certain marines, eldar and DE can dish it out too...

1500 points DE can fit in at least 34 Darklight weapons.

I don't see how anyone can say Tau are a great shooting army compared to most 5th ED codexes.

They are horrible against MEQ, they are slow, and the majority of the units in the codex are garbage.

Tau are simply uncompetitive against any good 5th ED codex, and that's including the quasi-4th/5th ED Chaos Daemons.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Best shooting is a scary tie between Guard and Tau. 9 broadsides with targetlock on leaders equates to 6 vehicles being hit by S10 AP 1 twinlinked weps... with a buttload of shield drones for return fire.

9 Broadsides aren't mobile, are extremely expensive and inefficient with Target Lock, and will get swept in combat easily.

Radical wrote:I don't see how anyone can say Tau are a great shooting army compared to most 5th ED codexes.

They are horrible against MEQ, they are slow, and the majority of the units in the codex are garbage.

Tau are simply uncompetitive against any good 5th ED codex, and that including the quasi-4th/5th ED Chaos Daemons.

I disagree but respect your opinion.

In many ways the Tau are not what they used to be in a changing environment. Yet, they still can have very potent tactics. I fought a Mechanized Guard player with a Farsight bomb for example.

Was kill point pitch battle and he brought the same list he is taking to Adepticon.

Because of 14 shield drones he lost 3 vehicles before wiping the bomb out. Meanwhile he was losing a weak flank to more Suits as they rolled Chimeras into coffins with MPods.

After finally getting the bomb wiped he wiped 2 of the other teams but never got the infantry squads that hid all game. We drew on turn 7 with me leading him all game until the very end.

I had a similar experience with Grey Knights and their fancy new dex, I also drew him though the battle was closer.

All in all, Tau can be competitive but until they get a new codex tey won't fair well against a lot of what's out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Best shooting is a scary tie between Guard and Tau. 9 broadsides with targetlock on leaders equates to 6 vehicles being hit by S10 AP 1 twinlinked weps... with a buttload of shield drones for return fire.

9 Broadsides aren't mobile, are extremely expensive and inefficient with Target Lock, and will get swept in combat easily.

Tau are good at shooting but they arent ig good lol.

And im guna have to say orks for cc.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Swiftblade wrote:I'm going to chime in on the Imperial Guard over Tau argument here. If you ask me (and this is just my ophinion) the Tau's exceptional shooting skills seem a bit like a "Gimmick", as in the entire army is centered around this idea that Tau are the best at what they do, so the army runs completly on that gimmick as a whole. Admittedly, however, Tau are great at shooting.

The Imperial Guards exceptional shooting skills, however, seem much less "Gimmick" ish, and their shooting skills don't come from the fact that "we are the best shooters ever!", it comes from the Guards ability to dig into and hold thier ground, and pretty much unleash an insane torrent of fire, and everything clicks together so well in a guard army that it makes guard the best shooting based army for the game.

Which I kinda find dissapointing, the Tau are almost specifically built for being the best shooters, yet are in all honesty rather shallow in those shooting abilities at times.

:Foregworld Battlesuit Image:

Well you seem to be proving my point sir. The Tau rely on that image of fire superiority, but then you can't just factor in the actual guns as the sole factor the Tau get for shooting, there is much more to shooting, such as flexibilty of weapons, and survivability of Troops in the shooting phase, and damage they can do. Plus, just pointing out one unit type that "looks cool" doesn't immediatly mean that the Tau are the best shooters. For more expensive points cost, you get a troop (The Firewarrior) who does not have all of the survivability options the Guardsman has with the Bonuses Gaurdsmen get for GTG. Tau will not only inflict heavy casualties in shooting, but they also get torn to pieces if they get shot at, even when in cover. Trying to get KPs on Guardsmen when they are in cover? Thats a nightmare. Plus, a troop of Guardsmen can take all sorts of heavy weapons. To get access to Tau Heavy weapons, you have o take up Elite Slots or HQ slots or HS slots just to get one heavy weapon. Also, the sheer weight of Guardsmen fire is terrifying. 8 Tau Warriors shooting at my Stealers is bad, they will take some casualties. 20 Guardsmen shooting at them? Those Stealers are screwed.

Swiftblade wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Swiftblade wrote:I'm going to chime in on the Imperial Guard over Tau argument here. If you ask me (and this is just my ophinion) the Tau's exceptional shooting skills seem a bit like a "Gimmick", as in the entire army is centered around this idea that Tau are the best at what they do, so the army runs completly on that gimmick as a whole. Admittedly, however, Tau are great at shooting.

The Imperial Guards exceptional shooting skills, however, seem much less "Gimmick" ish, and their shooting skills don't come from the fact that "we are the best shooters ever!", it comes from the Guards ability to dig into and hold thier ground, and pretty much unleash an insane torrent of fire, and everything clicks together so well in a guard army that it makes guard the best shooting based army for the game.

Which I kinda find dissapointing, the Tau are almost specifically built for being the best shooters, yet are in all honesty rather shallow in those shooting abilities at times.

:Foregworld Battlesuit Image:

Well you seem to be proving my point sir. The Tau rely on that image of fire superiority, but then you can't just factor in the actual guns as the sole factor the Tau get for shooting, there is much more to shooting, such as flexibilty of weapons, and survivability of Troops in the shooting phase, and damage they can do. Plus, just pointing out one unit type that "looks cool" doesn't immediatly mean that the Tau are the best shooters. For more expensive points cost, you get a troop (The Firewarrior) who does not have all of the survivability options the Guardsman has with the Bonuses Gaurdsmen get for GTG. Tau will not only inflict heavy casualties in shooting, but they also get torn to pieces if they get shot at, even when in cover. Trying to get KPs on Guardsmen when they are in cover? Thats a nightmare. Plus, a troop of Guardsmen can take all sorts of heavy weapons. To get access to Tau Heavy weapons, you have o take up Elite Slots or HQ slots or HS slots just to get one heavy weapon. Also, the sheer weight of Guardsmen fire is terrifying. 8 Tau Warriors shooting at my Stealers is bad, they will take some casualties. 20 Guardsmen shooting at them? Those Stealers are screwed.

The FW get shield drones= survivablility.

Also, the IG doesn't have an analogue to the XV8 battlesuit, which is the main strength of the Tau. Xtreme elite super heavy awesome equpment and customizable weapons that can fulfill just about any role. Oh and did I mention, they're jump infantry?

Drones are basically ablative wounds. Most guardsmen are ablative wounds. Drones also cause fallback tests when they die in many cases just as any other model. They're useful only on a couple of units and even then aren't exactly the most amazing things in the world.

The XV8 is a cool unit, but expensive, easily killed (no harder to kill a 3man unit than it is to kill 6 bog standard SM's, and no harder than to kill 3 if you're shooting them with S8+ weapons) and doesn't exactly generate a huge volume of firepower, and aren't really much faster than most infantry units (especially considering their jet move is usually to put them back where they were at the start of the turn). They also have to take dangerous terrain tests when entering or leaving terrain, I've seen more suit units lose a guy and fall back off the board to that by itself than I can count.

Under the 4E rules and against 4E/3E enemies, Crisis suits were stellar units. Under 5E rules against 5E Codecies, they aren't what they used to be. I know, my Tau routinely field 11 of them.

Instead of Crisis Suits, IG have all sorts of other mobile heavy weapons platforms (just about everything), and multiple units that can fulfill the same role. A mechanized command squads and mechvets do pretty much the same thing.

Vaktathi wrote:Drones are basically ablative wounds. Most guardsmen are ablative wounds. Drones also cause fallback tests when they die in many cases just as any other model. They're useful only on a couple of units and even then aren't exactly the most amazing things in the world.

The XV8 is a cool unit, but expensive, easily killed (no harder to kill a 3man unit than it is to kill 6 bog standard SM's, and no harder than to kill 3 if you're shooting them with S8+ weapons) and doesn't exactly generate a huge volume of firepower, and aren't really much faster than most infantry units (especially considering their jet move is usually to put them back where they were at the start of the turn). They also have to take dangerous terrain tests when entering or leaving terrain, I've seen more suit units lose a guy and fall back off the board to that by itself than I can count.

Under the 4E rules and against 4E/3E enemies, Crisis suits were stellar units. Under 5E rules against 5E Codecies, they aren't what they used to be. I know, my Tau routinely field 11 of them.

Instead of Crisis Suits, IG have all sorts of other mobile heavy weapons platforms (just about everything), and multiple units that can fulfill the same role. A mechanized command squads and mechvets do pretty much the same thing.

They actually are harder to kill, since they can take shield generators/drones.

They can generate huge volumes of firepower, since a single suit with Cyclic Ion Blaster and Burst Cannon + Multi-tracker can shoot eight times. 1 model. 1 infantry model. firing. eight. times.

Im pretty sure tyranid shooting is better then IG and Tau..

Spawn 35 gaunts...... shoot at bs3 s4 35 times..... awww yea.....

xD but hive guards own !

and tyranids > all CC because our CC termagaunts can also shoot! and they get uber buffs around tervigons.

so what you kill 11 guants in CC? okay i spawn next round...

you assualt? oh wait, im I4 on TERMAGAUNTS .

You assualt? o wait, counterattack special rule.

I lold

you shoot? FNP. nuff said Xd

Yes it gets 8 shots,but it costs how much and how many of those shots are S3? Just like the LR Punisher, which can get a potential 33 shots off a turn (main gun, 3 Heavy bolters, heavy stubber, hunter killer) but isn't exactly seen as an amazing unit.

And again, drones are expensive and can cause Suits to flee. If drones were cheaper and didn't count for morale, they'd be great, but alas, they aren't :( Drones can help, but really generally aren't going to make a huge difference in most cases.

Addiitonally, per model firepower isn't necessarily important, it's what the entire unit is capable of, and the cost involved with the unit.