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Monster Rain wrote:The Thunderfire Cannon and Techmarine are an Artillery Unit. The Techmarine isn't an IC until after the Gun is destroyed.

You have to destroy an entire unit to get a KP, according to RAW.

if you purchase an IC w/ a retinue, its 1 unit.

Yes, and the Techmarine is not an IC, until AFTER the Thunderfire Cannon is Destroyed

No, the Techmarine IS an IC he just gets no benefits of the rule - the rule states the Techmarine "does not benefit from..." not "does not have".

Being worth an additional KP is most definitely NOT a benefit of the rule

It is therefore a retinue.

don_mondo wrote:Silly Gwar, any IC with a Retinue doesn't count as an IC until the retinue is destroyed. That's part of the retinue rules, isn't it? So why is the TFC/Techmarine any different? He's not as far as I can see. He's a model with the IC rule, attached to a unit he cannot leave until it dies (retinue) and cannot "be" an IC until that unit dies, just like with a retinue. So tell me again why this IC/retinue isn't worth 2 KP like every other IC/retinue in the game? Cause I can't see any reason behind it.

Actually in the BRB it says that a IC count as an upgrade chareacter for his retinue whyle in C:SM it says a techmarine dosent benefit from the IC rule so Gwar is right thunderfire+TM=artilerry=1kp its just a special case of artilerry that gives the crewman some extra rules if his gear is destroyed fitst.

"Not benefiting from the IC rule" does NOT mean the TM is not an IC - it just means he gets no benefits of being one.

Making the leap to state that the IC is not an IC at all is NOT supportable.

That dosent change the fact that neither the cannon is marked as a retinue or te TM as an upgrade character to the unit hes nothing but crew and as such hes the only model in the unit thats worth a KP.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, the Techmarine IS an IC he just gets no benefits of the rule - the rule states the Techmarine "does not benefit from..." not "does not have".

Have another look at the Thunderfire Cannon entry in the army list. No IC rule.

As near as I can see, by RAW the Techmarine Gunner doesn't have the IC rule, so the rule stating that he doesn't benefit from the IC rule until the cannon is destroyed is meaningless... as he can't benefit from the rule after the cannon is destroyed either, because he doesn't have it.

It seems clear that the Techmarine is supposed to become an IC once the cannon is destroyed... but how that works with KP's is anyone's guess. I'm still leaning towards the unit counting as a single KP for both Tech and gun, myself.

insaniak wrote:As near as I can see, by RAW the Techmarine Gunner doesn't have the IC rule, so the rule stating that he doesn't benefit from the IC rule until the cannon is destroyed is meaningless... as he can't benefit from the rule after the cannon is destroyed either, because he doesn't have it.

I said that 2 days ago

Also you can't get a KP for the gun it dosen't happen anywhere else in the game and since there isn't a special rule for it its clear that like any other artillery unit in the game you get no KP for the gun you have to wipe out the unit gun+crew. Thus you get a KP in two cases:

1 you kill the techmarine and since the cannon has no crew left its removed too unit is wiped out.
2 you kill the cannon first and then you kill the TM as well unit is wiped end of story.

PS: Also the cannon can't be a retinue because in the BRB it says a retinue is referred to as a retinue, bodyguard or somethin simmilar i don't see anything in the thundercannon profile that would suggest even remotely that it falls in that category. Plus a retinue has a separate unit entry from the charracter it accompanes (see tyrant guard, tau bodyguard etc.) but a TM and his cannon are taken together as a single unit.

HoverBoy wrote: I said that 2 days ago

Consider my post an agreement, rather than a fresh argument.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, and the Techmarine is not an IC, until AFTER the Thunderfire Cannon is Destroyed

Yes, ANY IC with a retinue is not an IC until the retinue is destroyed. What's your point?


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HoverBoy wrote:That dosent change the fact that neither the cannon is marked as a retinue or te TM as an upgrade character to the unit hes nothing but crew and as such hes the only model in the unit thats worth a KP.

It doesn't need to to "marked as a retinue", the rulebook even says it can be called fdifferent things. We have a rulebook definition of a retinue to go by, a unit to which the IC is joined and cannot leave unless the unit is destroyed.

So let's see. Is the TF Cannon a unit. Yes. Can the Model with the Independent Character rule that is joined to the TFC leave it during the game? No. Sure sounds like a retinue to me.........

The point, once again, is that the Techmarine gunner for the Thunderfire Cannon does not just lose the IC rule while he has a retinue... he doesn't have the IC rule to begin with.

Regular Techmarines do. It's listed in their unit entry. The Techmarine Gunner does not have it listed, and so does not have it.

Monster Rain wrote:The Thunderfire Cannon and Techmarine are an Artillery Unit. The Techmarine isn't an IC until after the Gun is destroyed.

You have to destroy an entire unit to get a KP, according to RAW.

Type of unit is irrelevant. There is nothing in the rules prohibiting Artillery, Infantry, Jump Infantry, or any other unit type from being a retinue. In the absence of such a statement, either any unit can be a retinue or no unit can be a retinue.

don_mondo wrote:Can the Model with the Independent Character rule that is joined to the TFC leave it during the game?

There is no character with the Independant Character rule joined to the TFC.

That's a valid argument. No IC rule, no retinue. But if he does have the IC rule (as the entry seems to say he should), then it is a retinue, etc etc.

Ok, if the techmarine + the cannon = 1 KP, then when the cannon dies the tech marine CANNOT join another squad. If someone plays it as 1kp, then i dont think they should be trying to benefit from joining him to a squad after the cannon dies.

agreed?

Well, if he doesn't have the IC rule, there's nothing that allows him to join another unit.

TopC wrote:Ok, if the techmarine + the cannon = 1 KP, then when the cannon dies the tech marine CANNOT join another squad. If someone plays it as 1kp, then i dont think they should be trying to benefit from joining him to a squad after the cannon dies.

agreed?

Actually, while he does not have the IC rule, he BENEFITS from it once the TFC is destroyed.

Of course, what "benefits" means is entirely subjective.

TopC wrote:Ok, if the techmarine + the cannon = 1 KP, then when the cannon dies the tech marine CANNOT join another squad.

Ignoring for a moment that by RAW he can't join other squads anyway, since we can be pretty sure that he's supposed to gain the IC rule when the cannon goes away... Why would the number of KP's he gives up have any influence on whether or not he can join other squads?

Because if he is an IC, then the TFC and Tech is indeed an IC with retinue, for 2 KP. If he doesn't have the IC rule, then it's not a retinue and worth only 1 KP. So IC = 2 KP and can join other squads. Non-IC = 1 KP and cannot join other squads.

Least, that's the way I see it.

Gwar! wrote:Actually, while he does not have the IC rule, he BENEFITS from it once the TFC is destroyed.

It doesn't say that he does benefit from it once the cannon is dead... just that he can only benefit from it at that point.

Or, in other words, after the cannon is destroyed is the only time the Techmarine Gunner can gain any benefit from the rule. But in order for that to happen he still needs to have the rule.

So as it stands, he would be able to benefit from the IC rule after the cannon is destroyed if something granted it to him.


Again, if we go by RAW here. As I said before, I think it's fairly clear that the intention is for him to gain the IC rule once the cannon is gone.

insaniak wrote:

TopC wrote:Ok, if the techmarine + the cannon = 1 KP, then when the cannon dies the tech marine CANNOT join another squad.

Ignoring for a moment that by RAW he can't join other squads anyway, since we can be pretty sure that he's supposed to gain the IC rule when the cannon goes away... Why would the number of KP's he gives up have any influence on whether or not he can join other squads?

becuase you could kill the cannon, the tech priest could then join another squad w/ alot of bodies and manage to survive not yielding a KP.

Which if he is an IC it should yield 2kps for the units destruction.

but if he doesnt yield 2kps, then he shouldnt be an IC.

I would have serious discussion if this came up at a tourny or something..

don_mondo wrote:Because if he is an IC, then the TFC and Tech is indeed an IC with retinue, for 2 KP. If he doesn't have the IC rule, then it's not a retinue and worth only 1 KP. So IC = 2 KP and can join other squads. Non-IC = 1 KP and cannot join other squads.

Or he's a unique type of character who becomes an IC after the rest of his unit is destroyed... The rest of the unit (the cannon) is not a retinue, because he's not an IC. It's just his unit. And you only gain 1 KP after the entire unit is destroyed.

If he had the IC rule, it would be a retinue.


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TopC wrote:becuase you could kill the cannon, the tech priest could then join another squad w/ alot of bodies and manage to survive not yielding a KP.

Any other IC can do the same thing. Frankly, I'm not seeing a problem.

Imagine for a moment if you will...i play tau mostly so ill use them as an example..

i take an EL + 2 body guards.. the el loses the IC rule, UNTIL the body guards die at which point he follows IC rules.

So body guards die, and i then rush off and join another squad. How upset would my opponent be if i tried to say that he got 0kps for killing the BGs, and then me hiding in another squad? oh..and its only worth 1 kp (yes i know its worth 2) its essentially the same situation except that due to wording people are trying to have their cake and eat it too kinda thing..least from my perspective..

should be either...
1. the entire unit is worth 1 kp, and he doesnt become an IC after cannon dies

2. its worth 2kps, and he becomes and IC after cannon dies.'


*edit* to answer your post..

The problem is any IC who is part of a squad the squad is not worth 1kp, its worth 2. The cannon is not war gear


*edit* possible rule book reference..

page 48, Retinues.

"some codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game...."

by the first sentence of how retinue is defined, i believe the thunderfire cannon should be a IC + retinue catagory, it makes no mention that it must specifically state it be called Body guard, or Retinue, it goes on to mention them but then at the end of that it says 'similar' which the thunderfire cannon + techpriest meets said description...its an IC connected to a unit (the cannon) that it cannot leave until the cannon dies. So to me its an IC + retinue. so it should yield 2 total kps

insaniak wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Because if he is an IC, then the TFC and Tech is indeed an IC with retinue, for 2 KP. If he doesn't have the IC rule, then it's not a retinue and worth only 1 KP. So IC = 2 KP and can join other squads. Non-IC = 1 KP and cannot join other squads.

Or he's a unique type of character who becomes an IC after the rest of his unit is destroyed... The rest of the unit (the cannon) is not a retinue, because he's not an IC. It's just his unit. And you only gain 1 KP after the entire unit is destroyed.

If he had the IC rule, it would be a retinue.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TopC wrote:becuase you could kill the cannon, the tech priest could then join another squad w/ alot of bodies and manage to survive not yielding a KP.

Any other IC can do the same thing. Frankly, I'm not seeing a problem.

No, any other IC joined to a unit that he cannot leave during the game cannot do the same thing, not without giving up a KP for the destruction of that other unit (aka his retinue). That's why this is such an issue. Because if the TFC doesn't give up a KP, the techmarine should have to take his chances on his own as opposed to joining that nearby Tac Squad and avoiding giving up the 1 KP for the TFC/Tech combined.

TopC wrote:i take an EL + 2 body guards.. the el loses the IC rule, UNTIL the body guards die at which point he follows IC rules.

But that's the difference here. The Techmarine doesn't lose the IC rule until his retinue is destroyed. He simply doesn't have the IC rule until the rest of his unit is destroyed.

At least, that's the best I can make out from the rules as we're given them. It's entirely possible that GW will FAQ it (sometime in the next century) to say that it's a retinue and the IC rule was accidentally left off his entry...

Yep, it all boils down to whether or not he has the IC rule.

don_mondo wrote:No, any other IC joined to a unit that he cannot leave during the game cannot do the same thing, not without giving up a KP for the destruction of that other unit (aka his retinue).

Wasn't saying they could. I was saying that any IC can make it harder to kill them (and thus gain their KP) by joining a unit.

Would you think it dodgy if you take a wound off a 2-wound character, and then your opponent joins him to a unit to make him harder to kill?

I wouldn't, and I'm not really seeing this situation as being a great deal different.

So if you were playing it, and the game was for 1,000,000,000 Dollarrrsssszzzzzz

and it came down to that 1kp to decide the game.. would he become an IC that can hide and the thunderfire+him give up 0kps? or would the destruction of the cannon = 1kp, him = 1kp?

I wouldn't change my opinion just because there was a prize on the line.

As far as I can see, he's one kill point. Yes, he can 'hide' in a unit. So can a wounded IC. Or that last Tactical Squad member can deny you a kill point by hiding behind a building on the last turn so you can't shoot him.

insaniak wrote:

don_mondo wrote:No, any other IC joined to a unit that he cannot leave during the game cannot do the same thing, not without giving up a KP for the destruction of that other unit (aka his retinue).

Wasn't saying they could. I was saying that any IC can make it harder to kill them (and thus gain their KP) by joining a unit.

Would you think it dodgy if you take a wound off a 2-wound character, and then your opponent joins him to a unit to make him harder to kill?

I wouldn't, and I'm not really seeing this situation as being a great deal different.

It's not the IC's KP that's at stake, it's the retinue's KP. I've got no problem with an IC joining a unit to make it harder to claim his KP, but if he can join a unit and make it harder to gain the KP from killing the unit he was formerly part of, the one he couldn't leave during the game, the one that meets the rulebook definition of a retinue, well, now that I would have a problem with.