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So insaniak you're saying that destroying the Artillery unit isn't worth a kill point because the Tac Marine RAW doesn't gain IC rules when the gun dies?
But if he did gain the IC rule the artillery unit would have been destroyed and we'd have a new unit of an IC Tac marine.

Strongly feel this should be 2 KPs really =\

insaniak wrote:

TopC wrote:i take an EL + 2 body guards.. the el loses the IC rule, UNTIL the body guards die at which point he follows IC rules.

But that's the difference here. The Techmarine doesn't lose the IC rule until his retinue is destroyed. He simply doesn't have the IC rule until the rest of his unit is destroyed.

At least, that's the best I can make out from the rules as we're given them. It's entirely possible that GW will FAQ it (sometime in the next century) to say that it's a retinue and the IC rule was accidentally left off his entry...

or the fact that a TFC is not an artillery *unit* by itself. It would be like destroying all the kannons in a grot battery and the grots got to finally run around and be annoying and then claim you got 1 kp for the kannons. Yes the Techmarine is an IC, but he is an IC that is a component of an artillery unit, and still is a component of the same artillery unit after the TFC is destoryed.

And retinues can function without their IC (when he is killed off); the TFC, wolves, drones cannot and so are not retinues.

The TFC AND the Techmarine are the *required* components for this unit. And you can not get a kp for only half a unit, but the whole unit must be destroyed.

Artillery unit is irrelevant. Grots aren't ICs, so that example is also irrelevant.
The Techmarine (maybe) being an IC and belonging to a unit he cannot leave during the game is the only thing that, by the rules, matters. Doesn't matter that the TFC goes poof if the Techmarine dies, doesn't matter that you have to take both of them to form the unit (Just like an Inquisitor Lord HAS to take henchmen). Seriously.

Tell you what, let's do a side-by-side comparison, assuming that the Tech has the IC rule. Let's start with the Retinue rules:
Retinues
Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a ‘retinue’, ‘bodyguard’ or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character and it will do so for the rest of the game.

Techmarine and TFC. IC joined to a unit he cannot leave during the game. Yep.
Inquisitor Lord and Henchmen. IC joined to a unit that he cannot leave during the game. Yep.

Hmmm, no difference there.

Techmarine unable to benefit from IC rule while retinue alive but able to act as IC after 'retinue' dies. Yep.
Inquisitor unable to benefit from IC rule while retinue alive but able to act as IC after retinue dies. Yep

Hmmm, no difference there either.

And per the retinue rules, that's all that matters. Type of unit, whether or not the additional elements survive the death of the IC, whether or not the retinue elements can be bought on their own or not (some can, some can't), none of the rest of it matters. If a model with the IC rule is joined to a unit it cannot leave during the game, that model has a retinue. And per the Annihilation rules, an IC with retinue is worth 2 KP.

So as stated before, it all boils down to whether or not the Techmarine actually has the IC rule. If he does, it should be 2 KP, if he doesn't, it should be 1 KP.

You guys are still ignoring the fact that an IC and his retinue are allways bought from separate unit profiles, thats made purposely to allow for the one KP per unit rule in the game, and since the cannon and the TM come with a single profile there's really no sence in them giving 2 KP.

PS: the only time an IC and his retinue, afaik, didn't have separate profiles was the IG command squad and that was FAQ'd by GW so i guess we're waitin on them for this one too.

HoverBoy wrote:You guys are still ignoring the fact that an IC and his retinue are allways bought from separate unit profiles, thats made purposely to allow for the one KP per unit rule in the game, and since the cannon and the TM come with a single profile there's really no sence in them giving 2 KP.

PS: the only time an IC and his retinue, afaik, didn't have separate profiles was the IG command squad and that was FAQ'd by GW so i guess we're waitin on them for this one too.

What you stated has zero foundation in the rules. Where the unit stats come from doesn't matter. All that matters is whether or not it is a unit that the IC cannot leave during the game. That is the sole, entire description of a retinue. And the TFC fits that description.

don_mondo wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:You guys are still ignoring the fact that an IC and his retinue are allways bought from separate unit profiles, thats made purposely to allow for the one KP per unit rule in the game, and since the cannon and the TM come with a single profile there's really no sence in them giving 2 KP.

PS: the only time an IC and his retinue, afaik, didn't have separate profiles was the IG command squad and that was FAQ'd by GW so i guess we're waitin on them for this one too.

What you stated has zero foundation in the rules. Where the unit stats come from doesn't matter. All that matters is whether or not it is a unit that the IC cannot leave during the game. That is the sole, entire description of a retinue. And the TFC fits that description.

So...a TFC is an artillery unit by itself and so worth 1 kp for killing the gun from an artillery *unit* when destroyed? If you answer yes, then we have nothing further to discuss. If you answer no, then why would you get 2 kps for destroying the TFC as 1 kp, then the techmarine for the second?

And units by definition are autonomous as per their definition found on page 3 in which they summarize in 3 paragraphs what a unit is and how it operates in the game, all of which cannot be done when the TFC is without a gunner, and so is not a unit and therefore not worth a kp. Yes, retinues *need* an IC to be bought, but they are a separate unit when bought, and function just fine without the IC (when killed off).

Retinues are units because they *can* operate without the IC.

If anyone thinks the TFC is a retinue, then jump on Wolf Lords with wolves, and Tau commanders with drones and say they are also worth 2 kps each.

Doesn't matter if the TFC is an artillery unit all by itself or not. Show me where a retinue is required to be a uit on it's own to be a retinue. Doesn't matter if it survives the death of the techmarine or not. Show me where the retinue rules say this is a requirement. That's what I keep trying to get through to you guys. The fact that the TFC cannot exist on it's own...........
does.
not.
matter.

Inquisitorial henchmen cannot be bought on their own either. Does that mean that they are not a retinue? Are you saying that if you kill the Inquisitor's henchmen that you don't get a KP just because they can't be bought on their own? That's not what the retinue and Annihilation rules say. Nothing you're objecting to has any foundation in the rules. I posted the retinue rules in their entirety just so you (plural you, not you specifically) could refernce them. Nowehre in those rules are any of your objections supported.

As for why? Been said a dozen times or more just in this thread, but I guess it needs to be repeated again. Because of the IC/retinue rules. If the Tech is an IC, and is joined to a unit that he cannot leave (Can he leave the TFC?), then he has a retinue. And an IC with retinue is worth 2 KP.

As for the Wolves and drones, totally different situation as they are wargear, not retinues. Those ICs can still join another unit while possessing those, right?

Q. Can an Independent Character who has taken
Fenrisian Wolves as wargear join another unit as
if he were on his own?
A. Yes – in fact you could potentially have a unit
that included several Independent Characters, all
of whom have Fenrisian Wolves, though each set
of Fenrisian Wolves must still remain within 2" of
their Independent Character master.

Can the Techmarine join another unit while attached to the TFC? If no, then they are not similar situations, are they?

The drones (except for Shadowsun) and wolves are both considered wargear, right?

Q. Do Fenrisian Wolves bought as wargear by an
Independent Character act as a Retinue during
an assault?
A. No – the Independent Character may still be
singled out even though his Fenrisian Wolves are
still alive. For example, a unit of Blood Claws is
joined by a Wolf Lord with two Fenrisian Wolves
as wargear. In an assault the enemy would be
able to direct his attacks towards three separate
targets – the Blood Claws, the Wolf Lord, or the
Fenrisian Wolves.

Is the TFC wargear? If no, then it's not a similar situation, is it? So wargear vs not wargear, again, totally different rules, as wargear does not fall under retinue rules, does it?

So, got any other objections, maybe some that are actually supported by rules.

Yes @don_mondo retinues can't be bought without an IC but they still have a separate entry (i also checked the DH codex and that goes for Inqusitorial henchmen too, using examples from a codex that many people don't have dosen't give you an advantage) so my argument remains valid.

However your own assault argument ranks the cannon as non-retinue because the TM can be singled out in assault as per the artillery rules.

Edit: Fixed the profile, entry thing.

Sure they do, just as the TFC has a separate profile from the techmarine. Or can the Tech fire all those different shots without the TFC?

And yes, due to the Artillery unit rules, hth is indeed performed differently for the Tech/TFC. Again, does that make a difference? Nope.

Edit: And my midz shift is almost over. Night all, see you in a couple of days..........................

I meant entry sorry, unit entry. I got my terms mixed up

I'll go with Monster here.

That's the general opinion.

ChrisCP wrote:So insaniak you're saying that destroying the Artillery unit isn't worth a kill point because the Tac Marine RAW doesn't gain IC rules when the gun dies?

What Tac Marine?

What I'm saying is that destroying the Artillery unit is worth a KP. But the unit is comprised of the gun and the Techmarine. Killing just the gun is not destroying the unit... it's only destroying half of it.

The fact that the Techmarine gains the IC rule after the gun is destroyed doesn't suddenly make him a new unit.

don_mondo wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The Thunderfire Cannon and Techmarine are an Artillery Unit. The Techmarine isn't an IC until after the Gun is destroyed.

You have to destroy an entire unit to get a KP, according to RAW.

Type of unit is irrelevant. There is nothing in the rules prohibiting Artillery, Infantry, Jump Infantry, or any other unit type from being a retinue. In the absence of such a statement, either any unit can be a retinue or no unit can be a retinue.

The type of unit is the only thing pertinent to the conversation, really. To get a kill Point, you have to kill everything in it. The TFC isn't an IC attached to a separate unit, it's a single unit and therefore worth one KP

Unless I'm mistaken, no Artillery Crew are able to leave their guns. Are they all retinues?

Irrelevant unless they are *also* ICs, as only ICs can have retinues.

Point boils down to this.

It actually meets the book requirements of a retinue.

But, due to people thinking "unit entry in codex" actually matters per the BRB rules is pointless as its not a rule. (not to belittle you)

Other argument, its artillery. I don't see how this particularly matters either as its the Tech marine that is in question, not the cannon.

2 model unit, tech marine regains IC status if the cannon dies, its the same as if the retinue died, when your retinue dies you regain your IC abilities.


If someone from the camp arguing that its not worth 2 KPs, could please manage to find a BRB reference? Its much easier to take the argument further with a reference..

thanks

Yeah but a true IC with a retinue gives up a KP if he dies before them too whyle the TM dosen't if he dies the cannon is removed and you get 1kp for the unit. The whole idea of a unit giving variyng KP's depending on how you kill it is ridicilous.

No, in both cases you would get 2KP - as the TM dies (1KP) and then the unit ceases to exist (2nd kill point) due to a *special rule* for the retinue.

Why do you treat the retinue differently just because one part of it is an Artillery piece? It is *still* a retinue and no matter what you do the unit is worth 2KP.

Monster Rain wrote:The Thunderfire Cannon and Techmarine are an Artillery Unit. The Techmarine isn't an IC until after the Gun is destroyed.

You have to destroy an entire unit to get a KP, according to RAW.

I concur:

KP are awarded for killing a unit. TFC is a single artillery unit when purchased. There is no option to buy the cannon by itself. In order to get the KP for the cannon / artillery unit, the entire unit as purchased must die.

If you manage to kill the cannon first, you've earned no KPs. The Techmarine does gain Independent Character status. So one can argue that you've just changed the unit type from Artillery to Infantry.

However, when you kill the Techmarine, you've killed the artillery unit crew (that may have been conditionally operating now as an IC), but you didn't kill a purchased IC. By my reading, you have earned a single KP by killing the artillery unit - regardless of order that models died.

I think INAT has this one correct.

Cheers,

Tac

I checked through the rule book and the retinue rule states that the codex will indicate if the IC is with a retinue, bodygaurd, or whatever. Where in the marines codex does it indicate that the TFC is any of these? To save time of digging through the rule book for the argument here ya go.

Retinues
Some independent characters are able to lead a special unit into battle called a ‘retinue’, ‘bodyguard’ or similar. Where this is the case it is specified in their Codex book entry.

We appear to be down to people just restating the same points now, so I think it's about time to give this one a rest.