Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tech marine = IC = 1kp
Thunderfire cannons =? a retinue for him?..so if the retinue and the IC are killed 2kps?

TopC wrote:Tech marine = IC = 1kp
Thunderfire cannons =? a retinue for him?..so if the retinue and the IC are killed 2kps?

Actually, it's a lot trickier than that.

Let me see if I can find my old post about it, if not, I'll just retype what happens (by RaW of course, if you play by the INAT FAQ, you use that )

INATFAQ 3.2

SM.73A.01 – Q: If a Thunderfire Cannon is destroyed does then killing the Techmarine earn an extra Kill Point?
A: No, the unit is only worth one Kill Point total when both models are killed/destroyed [clarification].


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(in response to Gwar's updated previous post) yea! I love RAW!

Tsannik wrote:INATFAQ 3.2

SM.73A.01 – Q: If a Thunderfire Cannon is destroyed does then killing the Techmarine earn an extra Kill Point?
A: No, the unit is only worth one Kill Point total when both models are killed/destroyed [clarification].


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(in response to Gwar's updated previous post) yea! I love RAW!

yea i saw the inat faq, but it doesnt make sense from a RAW point of view to me at the moment hopefully gwar can dig some up that help... just seems like from RaW its already covered that IC + retinue = 2

Ok, first of all:
A Techmarine is an Independent Character (Page 71, Codex: Space Marines). So far, so good.

The rules for Thunderfire Cannon state (Emphasis mine):

Each Thunderfire Cannon is crewed by a single Techmarine (see page 71 for special rules). Note that the Techmarine does not benefit from the Independent Character and Blessing of the Omnissiah special rules unless his Thunderfire Cannon has been destroyed

Thus, a Techmarine with a Thunderfire Cannon is NOT an Independent Character until the Thunderfire Cannon has been destroyed. Thus, we can conclude that the Thunderfire Cannon and Techmarine is a Single unit, not a Character and Retinue. Thus, should both the Thunderfire Cannon and the Techmarine be killed at the same time, or if the Techmarine is removed as a casualty before the Thunderfire Cannon is Destroyed (being Artillery the Cannon is removed when all the crew are dead) the unit is worth a single kill point.

Now, initially I had thought that once the Techmarine became an Independent Character, he would be worth a 2nd Kill point. However, looking more closely, 2 KP are only awarded for "A Character and their Retinue". Now, the Techmarine didn't have a Retinue, because he was never at any point an Independent Character with a unit he could not leave. Thus, no matter the order in which they are killed, the unit is worth a grand total of 1 KP.

Yes, I know this is different to what I initially argued way back when, but hey, I can admit when I make a mistake.

Actually, it's a lot trickier than that.

What he said...

Gwar! wrote:Ok, first of all:
A Techmarine is an Independent Character (Page 71, Codex: Space Marines). So far, so good.

The rules for Thunderfire Cannon state (Emphasis mine):

Each Thunderfire Cannon is crewed by a single Techmarine (see page 71 for special rules). Note that the Techmarine does not benefit from the Independent Character and Blessing of the Omnissiah special rules unless his Thunderfire Cannon has been destroyed

Thus, a Techmarine with a Thunderfire Cannon is NOT an Independent Character until the Thunderfire Cannon has been destroyed. Thus, we can conclude that the Thunderfire Cannon and Techmarine is a Single unit, not a Character and Retinue. Thus, should both the Thunderfire Cannon and the Techmarine be killed at the same time, or if the Techmarine is removed as a casualty before the Thunderfire Cannon is Destroyed (being Artillery the Cannon is removed when all the crew are dead) the unit is worth a single kill point.

So essentially the cannon is being treated like a piece of wargear that wounds can hit.

That being the case, if the cannon dies does it incur a moral check (assuming 25%+)?

TopC wrote:So essentially the cannon is being treated like a piece of wargear that wounds can hit.

That being the case, if the cannon dies does it incur a moral check (assuming 25%+)?

No, it is nothing like that. It is a Gun model as per the Artillery Unit type in the BRB. As for Morale tests, the BRB is explicit in this regard. Read it

Gwar! wrote:

TopC wrote:So essentially the cannon is being treated like a piece of wargear that wounds can hit.

That being the case, if the cannon dies does it incur a moral check (assuming 25%+)?

No, it is nothing like that. It is a Gun model as per the Artillery Unit type in the BRB. As for Morale tests, the BRB is explicit in this regard. Read it

25% models
just making sure there isnt something special w/ this instance that makes it different

TopC wrote:25% models
just making sure there isnt something special w/ this instance that makes it different

There is something special. It's covered in the Rulebook

Gwar! wrote:

TopC wrote:25% models
just making sure there isnt something special w/ this instance that makes it different

There is something special. It's covered in the Rulebook

no doubt..lol

Right, so even tho the IC Techmarine is joined to a unit that he cannot leave during the game unless it dies (rulebook definition of a retinue), the ruling is that the techmarine and his TF Cannon retinue are only a single KP, even tho Annihilation rules say taht an IC and retinue are 2 KP.

Oh wait, yeah, this is one that I disagree with................. Should (IMO) be 2 KP. Does not benefit from the IC rule. Yeah, that means he can't join other units, or make use of any other special IC abilities, whatever they might be. Whoopeee. No IC with a retinue benefits from his IC rule while joined to his retinue. Think about it. Can any IC with a retinue make use of (benefit from) their IC rule while joined to their retinue? No. So all that's saying is he's doesn't get to use his IC rule while the TF Cannon is alive. It does NOT say that he's not an IC! He's still an IC, just as any other IC joined to a unit that they cannot leave during the game is. Just because they're in a retinue and cannot be picked out does not mean they lose the IC rule.
Look at it this way. Can Zogwort Curse the Techmarine? Why or why not? Does the WH power that lowers an ICs leadership for the duration of the game work on the Techmarine? Why or why not?
IMO, the answer to both of those is yes. The Techmarine still has the IC rule as part of his profile. Meaning he's still an IC, regardless of the presence or absence of the TFC.

But it's all a non-issue, since the INAT has already ruled on it. But I do agree wtih the OP, the INAT FAQ on this one does not make sense by RAW.

don, the Techmarine is not an IC when he is with the TFC.

Gwar! wrote:don, the Techmarine is not an IC when he is with the TFC.

If a IC takes a retinue, he is no longer an IC.. but yields 2 kps. I just dont like that the inat makes the Techmarine and Cannon an exception to this rule that is in the BRB. But as long as people dont count my gun drones from a destroyed vehicle. i dont care

Yes, he is. He has the Independent Character rule and it does not go away. He's still an IC, just cannot benefit from any IC rules. Just like any other IC with a retinue.....................

He does not have the IC rule.

Well there lays the weirdness on the Elite slot techmarine the IC rule is there but on the thunderfire cannon its not included with a "(techmarine only)" like it woild be in newer codices so consievably this could mean that a Thunderfire techmarine can't become an IC after loosing his cannon cuz the rule isn't in his profile (yay GW RAW).

Also does having that techmarine allow you to add a servitor unit to the army?

all retinues allow for their boss to be an IC when they die, but not before.
not everything that allow for their boss to be an IC when they die, but not before is a retinue.
Nowhere does it state it is a retinue. Thus it is not a retinue.

Klawz wrote:all retinues allow for their boss to be an IC when they die, but not before.
not everything that allow for their boss to be an IC when they die, but not before is a retinue.
Nowhere does it state it is a retinue. Thus it is not a retinue.

Thunderfire cannon
Unit composition: cannon, Tech marine

Techmarine rules: Independant character, so when the cannon dies, he becomes an IC = +1 kp

but therein is the root of my original question

The rules for kp are that 1 kp is awarded when a unit is destroyed.

The Cannon is not a unit in itself and cannot operate with out its other half, unlike retinues which work just fine if the IC was killed. Its like saying wolfs or shield/gun drones count as a separate kp, neither of them exist after their IC is killed off.

You buy the cannon with the IC. If just the cannon is destroyed, nothing is rewarded because the other half of its unit is still running around.

At least, that's how I see it.

are we still on this?

TopC: Independent Character does not make it its own unit; just allows it to operate as an independent character once the thunderfire cannon is destroyed. The Unit is an artillery unit. rtfm on artillery units and see how they work.

The unit is an artillery unit consisting of techmarine(with a special rule) and thunderfire cannon.

Would you expect to gain 2 KP for killing all the Zzap guns in a big gun unit then killing the grots?

The answer is no Artillery does not work this way.

The artillery unit argument is the best so far a gun dosen't give a KP but its crew does.

padixon wrote:The rules for kp are that 1 kp is awarded when a unit is destroyed.

The Cannon is not a unit in itself and cannot operate with out its other half, unlike retinues which work just fine if the IC was killed. Its like saying wolfs or shield/gun drones count as a separate kp, neither of them exist after their IC is killed off.

You buy the cannon with the IC. If just the cannon is destroyed, nothing is rewarded because the other half of its unit is still running around.

At least, that's how I see it.

Doesn't matter if the TF cannon is a unit in and of itself. Old IG codex (since I'm most familiar with it), Command squad had an IC officer and 4 IG. The 4 IG were not a unit in and of themselves, no way to take just them as a command unit, they only came with the officer. Does that mean that suddenly the IG Officer IC is not worth a second KP. NO. Almost any retinue is not going to be a unit in and of itself, that's usually part of what makes it retinue. Let's see, other examples, Inquisitor Retinue, henchmen cannot be taken on their own. Dark Eldar, I don't think you can take Incubi on their own, can you? Now true, the Cannon does have the added liability that if the Techmarine dies, it goes away. Yet it's not wargear, as it comprises a unit that the Techmarine cannot leave and prevents the IC Techmarine from joining other units, etc, unlike true wargear (those aforementioned drones or wolfs).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:are we still on this?

TopC: Independent Character does not make it its own unit; just allows it to operate as an independent character once the thunderfire cannon is destroyed. The Unit is an artillery unit. rtfm on artillery units and see how they work.

The unit is an artillery unit consisting of techmarine(with a special rule) and thunderfire cannon.

Would you expect to gain 2 KP for killing all the Zzap guns in a big gun unit then killing the grots?

The answer is no Artillery does not work this way.

Nope, I wouldn't. But then again, those grots don't have the IC rule, do they. That's what throws the whole question into a different category than a standard artillery unit.

Kommissar Kel wrote:are we still on this?

TopC: Independent Character does not make it its own unit; just allows it to operate as an independent character once the thunderfire cannon is destroyed. The Unit is an artillery unit. rtfm on artillery units and see how they work.

The unit is an artillery unit consisting of techmarine(with a special rule) and thunderfire cannon.

Would you expect to gain 2 KP for killing all the Zzap guns in a big gun unit then killing the grots?

The answer is no Artillery does not work this way.

Its the same argument of Gun drones being a KP off a devilfish, if people are going to make it so that 1 unit is worth 2 for certain isntances, it should be the case for all is my personal gripe

I believe you can buy a techmarine, or you can by a thunderfire cannon with techmarine. I think there's a difference here.

Sure there's a difference. One has a "retinue", one doesn't.............

Except it doesn't because it does not count as an IC until the Cannon is Destroyed, so he never counts as an IC with a unit he cannot leave.

Silly Gwar, any IC with a Retinue doesn't count as an IC until the retinue is destroyed. That's part of the retinue rules, isn't it? So why is the TFC/Techmarine any different? He's not as far as I can see. He's a model with the IC rule, attached to a unit he cannot leave until it dies (retinue) and cannot "be" an IC until that unit dies, just like with a retinue. So tell me again why this IC/retinue isn't worth 2 KP like every other IC/retinue in the game? Cause I can't see any reason behind it.

The Techmarine Gunner is not a model with the IC rule.

The Thunderfire Cannon and Techmarine are an Artillery Unit. The Techmarine isn't an IC until after the Gun is destroyed.

You have to destroy an entire unit to get a KP, according to RAW.