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Why not start a thread that pertains to that issue and get some input on it? In my opinion, since the Drop Pod really doesn't work any other way in the game, it's probably RAI that it can DS with units inside that normally can't DS. However, since I'm not the author, I don't know that for sure, so that argument is for someone else.


If the Vendetta is not allowed to confer it's ability onto units inside, there are still a myriad of ways to use the vehicle, all of them legal. Therefore, it's easier to conclude that it's a cloudy issue at best. Again, these are all my opinions.

If you take a hard line RAW stance, something Gwar prides himself on usually, but when it comes to this issue he just throws it out the window, then I would have to agree that neither can happen. But again, we can make a thread to discuss why you guys think the Drop Pod doesn't work, and what RAW supports or doesn't.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Ok, Lets try this again:

Yes or No:

A Squad that Cannot normally Outflank can Arrive From Reserved embarked upon a Transport vehicle that can out flank.

A Simple, Yes, or No Please.

Yes.


As long as it enters play from its rear table edge, and doesn't Outflank. Since the rules for outflanking are pretty clear on who can do this. If it outflanks, then my answer is no.

So you are also saying that a unit can arrive in a Deep Striking Transport, so long as it enters play from its rear table edge, and doesn't Deep Strike, correct?

Again, a simple yes or no please.

Heh, again trying to rope me in on the Drop Pod issue. Yes, if the vehicle is legally allowed to make that move, then I would agree with that statement.



Clay

Primarch wrote:Heh, again trying to rope me in on the Drop Pod issue. Yes, if the vehicle is legally allowed to make that move, then I would agree with that statement.

Umm... no? I am talking about Valkyries, which can Deep Strike.

I notice also a lack of a simple yes or no.

Once again:

Transport Can Deep Strike, Unit Cannot. Can the Unit Arrive in the Deep Striking transport. Yes, or No.

If you discount the Drop Pod issue, can anyone actually detail where in the rulebook/codex that allows what the original poster asked (page #, quotes, etc...)? Simply saying a unit didn't outflank when it jumps out of a transport that just outflanked just doesn't appear to be supported in any rulebook/codex. If it is a consensus on how it is actually played, ok, that I can understand.

But I think the Drop Pod does work, and by applying the same logic, that means the Valk/Vend works the same way, allowing a unit without that ability to enter the game by making use of a transport's ability.
To me, either both work or neither works.

Side note: You in TX? Play in the Dallas GT way back when?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarigar wrote:If you discount the Drop Pod issue, can anyone actually detail where in the rulebook/codex that allows what the original poster asked (page #, quotes, etc...)? Simply saying a unit didn't outflank when it jumps out of a transport that just outflanked just doesn't appear to be supported in any rulebook/codex. If it is a consensus on how it is actually played, ok, that I can understand.

GAP consensus, using the Drop Pod example as why it works.

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:Heh, again trying to rope me in on the Drop Pod issue. Yes, if the vehicle is legally allowed to make that move, then I would agree with that statement.

Umm... no? I am talking about Valkyries, which can Deep Strike.

I notice also a lack of a simple yes or no.

Once again:

Transport Can Deep Strike, Unit Cannot. Can the Unit Arrive in the Deep Striking transport. Yes, or No.

Yes, from the rear table edge. I believe I said that above.....



Clay

this is a tough call.

so the question at hand is ( and please correct me if I'm wrong):

Does a transport vehicle's special arrival rule confer it upon the unit that is declared embarked in it prior to the deployment of one's army whether that unit has the same rule or not?

So you are saying that a Tac squad cannot Deep Strike onto the table in a DropPod................? That they must walk on from the rear table edge since they do not have the Deep Strike ability.

don_mondo wrote:But I think the Drop Pod does work, and by applying the same logic, that means the Valk/Vend works the same way, allowing a unit without that ability to enter the game by making use of a transport's ability.
To me, either both work or neither works.

Side note: You in TX? Play in the Dallas GT way back when?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarigar wrote:If you discount the Drop Pod issue, can anyone actually detail where in the rulebook/codex that allows what the original poster asked (page #, quotes, etc...)? Simply saying a unit didn't outflank when it jumps out of a transport that just outflanked just doesn't appear to be supported in any rulebook/codex. If it is a consensus on how it is actually played, ok, that I can understand.

GAP consensus, using the Drop Pod example as why it works.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. I have posted this before, and will do so again.

Playing strictly by RAW makes the game unplayable. I will agree with that all day. There are times when RAI is painfully obvious. Like Drop pods. They only work one way. ONE WAY. So the RAI must be that it was intended for them to confer their ability onto the unit riding inside. I can't back that up with any rules though, none. There simply aren't any.

The Vendetta, is another thing altogether. There are tons of ways to play with that vehicle. It isn't limited, and works just fine in the game without allowing it to confer it's ability onto the troops. This one, is the opposite of the Drop Pod. I can find rules to support my case that it isn't allowed. The rules tell you who can Outflank. They also tell you how you can arrive from reserves. There are 3 ways, unless you have codex specific rules overriding this.

Either way, it may sounds like I am arguing in circles, but I feel that its a RAI versus RAW issue. One of them is cloudy when you try and look at RAI, but by RAW, you simply can't do it. The other is pretty clear by RAW that it's illegal, however, makes the unit completely worthless as a Dedicated transport if it doesn't confer it's ability onto the unit riding inside.

Any way, I agree with the above poster. Can anyone point to a rule not in the Space marine codex that supports your claim that the Vendetta can confer it's ability onto its passengers? Something either in the IG dex, or the rule book? Just saying that I'm wrong and that if Drop Pods can do it, everyone should be able to, really isn't using the rules for said unit to state your case.....



Clay

i understand the one side of the argument. for example:

a unit of Space Marine Scouts have the "Scouts" special rule.

a Land Speeder Storm also have the "Scouts" special rule.

"Scouts" or "Infiltrators" special rule can be switched over to "outflank".

one reasoning is that if Space Marine Scouts and a Land Speeder Storm have "Scouts"special rule, there should be no problem with them arriving via outflank per RAW.

don_mondo wrote:So you are saying that a Tac squad cannot Deep Strike onto the table in a DropPod................? That they must walk on from the rear table edge since they do not have the Deep Strike ability.

What I am saying, is that a Vendetta cannot outflank with a unit of Vets inside, because the Vets do not have that ability and there are no rules allowing the Vendetta to confer it's ability to them.



Pretty clear statement, and again, why you guys keep talking about a Drop Pod is beyond me. If I stated that my Orks could take Land Raiders because Space Marines could take them, you'd call me crazy. Same thing here, one rule/codex has nothing to do with the other at the end of the day. Start a Drop Pod thread, and I will chime in there. In the mean time, give me some actual rules in either the Rule book, or the IG Codex that allows the Vendetta to carry non-outflanking units onto the table when it Outflanks.



Clay

Land Speeder Storm can also Deep Strike. Can those same Scouts ride in it as it Deep Strikes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Re the Drop Pod/Tac squad, it's because of what you said right here where you said a unit (Tac Squad in my example) cannot arrive in a Deep Striking transport because they don't have the Deep Strike ability. Yes, from the rear table edge does not equate to deep striking.

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:Heh, again trying to rope me in on the Drop Pod issue. Yes, if the vehicle is legally allowed to make that move, then I would agree with that statement.

Umm... no? I am talking about Valkyries, which can Deep Strike.

I notice also a lack of a simple yes or no.

Once again:

Transport Can Deep Strike, Unit Cannot. Can the Unit Arrive in the Deep Striking transport. Yes, or No.

Yes, from the rear table edge. I believe I said that above.....

Clay

that's the thing....I personally don't know.

And I play Imperial Guard.

don_mondo wrote:Land Speeder Storm can also Deep Strike. Can those same Scouts ride in it as it Deep Strikes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Re the Drop Pod/Tac squad, it's because of what you said right here where you said a unit (Tac Squad in my example) cannot arrive in a Deep Striking transport because they don't have the Deep Strike ability. Yes, from the rear table edge does not equate to deep striking.

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:Heh, again trying to rope me in on the Drop Pod issue. Yes, if the vehicle is legally allowed to make that move, then I would agree with that statement.

Umm... no? I am talking about Valkyries, which can Deep Strike.

I notice also a lack of a simple yes or no.

Once again:

Transport Can Deep Strike, Unit Cannot. Can the Unit Arrive in the Deep Striking transport. Yes, or No.

Yes, from the rear table edge. I believe I said that above.....

Clay

Hmmm, let me state my position in a different way......



By RAW - No, you cannot Deep strike in a drop pod because the rules don't allow for vehicles to confer their abilities on their passengers. Same goes for Vendettas.


By RAI - It is my belief that the RAI are for a Drop Pod to be able to deep strike with passengers because the vehicle does not work any other way. As for the Vendetta, I can see both sides of the argument, but the RAI is cloudy at best simply because the vehicle does work in a myriad of other ways.



We may not agree, but this has been a pretty civil discussion at least. Thanks for that.


Clay

Primarch, the burden is on you to prove that a unit embarked on a transport cannot ride the transport onto the board using deep strike or outflank. All you've done so far is repeat a vague and unfounded assertion that the transported unit must have the same deployment mechanism that the transport is using.

The transport unit has ability X which allows it to deep strike or outflank. The transported unit has permission to embark onto the transport during deployment. The transport arrives using its chosen deployment method.

Please cite the section in the rules which prohibits the transported unit from entering play embarked on the transport and later disembarking.

The fact that the Valk/Vend has other abilities is irrelevant. It can Deep Strike, it can Outflank, it can enter via regular Reserves, it can start on the table and Scout move. No one of those abiliites impinges upon the other abilities. Same thing with the Land Speeder Storm. Same issue arises with Dark Eldar Raiders with Screaming Jets (I think that's the right name). I'm sure there are some I'm missing. Point being, if any one of these confers it's special "come in from reserves" ability to an embarked unit, then they should all confer.

If Marines were still required to ride in their Drop Pod once they bought it, I might think differently. But given taht they can choose to Deep strike in, Outflank (with the right Character), deploy normally Reserves normally, well, makes the dedicated transport issue a non-issue to me, if you see what I mean.

another example from the IG codex:

Storm Trooper Squad have the "Special Operations" rule.

one of the three options for "Special Operations" is "Reconnaissance" which grants the Scouts and Move Through Cover special rule.

a Valkyrie/Vendetta have the "Scout" special rule.

so if you give your Storm Trooper Squad the Reconnaissance option and declare them inside a Valkyrie/Vendetta at the deployment step, then both should be able to outflank.

Veterans for example do not have a "Scout" rule.

so some would assume that they would not be granted the outflank rule even though they were declared inside the Valkyrie/Vendetta during the players deployment.

However, a Space Marine Drop Pod is a "dedicated" transport. So if it is dedicated (or bought "points wise" along with a unit), then it's special rule can be applied to the unit it was dedicated to.

is this presumption within reason??

Why? Being dedicated only means that only the unit that it was bought for can start the game in it. Otherwise it has no rules to differentiate it from a non-dedicated transpot. They are separate units, just as the Valk and Vets are separate units.

However, a Space Marine Drop Pod is a "dedicated" transport. So if it is dedicated (or bought "points wise" along with a unit), then it's special rule can be applied to the unit it was dedicated to.

It's a presumption, a pretty big one. You are saying things that are not present anywhere in the rules and assuming them to be so.

well the only reason I question the argument is that right now, GW offers a Space Marine army set made up of Drop Pods, Tactical Squads, Assault Marines, and Terminator Squads in their Online Store for over a $1000.

Before a person spends that kind of money, I would assume that GW wouldn't sell such an army deal without it being able to work if someone was applying RAW.

Unless I'm mistaken and there is some ammendment with the "Planet Strike" book and the normal "40K rulebook.

what is the correct justification?

Sarigar wrote:If you discount the Drop Pod issue, can anyone actually detail where in the rulebook/codex that allows what the original poster asked (page #, quotes, etc...)? Simply saying a unit didn't outflank when it jumps out of a transport that just outflanked just doesn't appear to be supported in any rulebook/codex. If it is a consensus on how it is actually played, ok, that I can understand.

Can't just throw out the drop pod issue. If valks/vends don't work, then neither do drop pods. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that valks / vends do work.

What and how GW packages stuff for sale has no bearing on the rules.
Either we can accept that a unit can enter play in a transport (dedicated or otherwise), regardless of how the transport is entering play, or we declare certain units nigh unuseable.

Are the vets in this instance "deployed" when they outflank or do they "deploy" when they choose to leave the vendetta? I mean up until they actually disembark from the vendetta, they are not on the table.

So the Vendetta outflanks (perfectly legal since it has that ability) and afterwards the Vets deep strike from the Vendetta (perfectly legal).

No, I'm sure at that point the unit is considered deployed since it is embarked in a unit that is deployed/in play and are thus no longer in reserves.

Basically it boils down to this:

At the beginning of the game, I declare my melta vets will begin the game embarked in a vendetta, and then I tell my opponent at deployment that my vendetta will be outflanking. At this point, we have not run into any problems, and there is no rule anywhere that says i cannot have my vendetta set to outflank (i.e. if this were illegal, the outflanking rules would say: Transports with the scout ability may not outflank if they are carrying a unit that does not have the scout/infiltrate ability).

Now, when I successfully roll for this combo from reserves it MUST enter play. By RaW the vendetta MUST enter play by outflanking, as I can't change my mind once deployment is complete, and likewise the vets MUST come into play riding the vendetta.

How then is this handled? Is the unit lost? Does the vendetta never come on? Does the game end?

solkan wrote:Primarch, the burden is on you to prove that a unit embarked on a transport cannot ride the transport onto the board using deep strike or outflank. All you've done so far is repeat a vague and unfounded assertion that the transported unit must have the same deployment mechanism that the transport is using.

The transport unit has ability X which allows it to deep strike or outflank. The transported unit has permission to embark onto the transport during deployment. The transport arrives using its chosen deployment method.

Please cite the section in the rules which prohibits the transported unit from entering play embarked on the transport and later disembarking.

Seriously? Have you bothered to read any part of this thread or the others where this has been discussed?



These are the facts that you obviously either ignored, or have no clue about.



I have quoted real rules from the real rulebook. One of them is the Outflank rule. It SPECIFICALLY tells you WHO CAN OUTFLANK. Specifically. Then, when I gave this as my argument. The opponents of said argument gave these responses;

"The Vets are NOT outflanking, only the Vendetta is."
"If Drop Pods work, then so do Vendettas"

Now, I hear their argument, and I counter with this;

The rulebook is again clear on how you can arrive from reserves, there are 3 ways. Deep strike, Outflank, move on from rear table edge. If there are no special deployment rules for Vets in the IG dex, and there aren't, then you must follow the rules in the rulebook. So, the Vets are indeed arriving using one of the three mentioned rules. Again, I quoted the rulebook here.

Secondly, the Drop Pod argument is not valid because you can't use rules from other codexes to gain an advantage in a different codex. I am not sure why this is even part of the argument. The rules for the Drop pod may be questioned, but it certainly doesn't answer the Vendetta question.

Their replies;

"You are wrong, the drop pod works, so the Vendetta must."
"The Vets are not outflanking, the Vendetta is."



So now, why do you post that the burden of proof is on me, when I have posted the rules multiple times, and they have posted NO rules to support their position. Seriously, before commenting again, read the thread, and educate yourself about what's going on here.


Clay

I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

Ok then!

Drop Pods don't work you heard the man. Obviously he is correct, because he has learnings!

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

apwill4765 wrote:Basically it boils down to this:

At the beginning of the game, I declare my melta vets will begin the game embarked in a vendetta, and then I tell my opponent at deployment that my vendetta will be outflanking. At this point, we have not run into any problems, and there is no rule anywhere that says i cannot have my vendetta set to outflank (i.e. if this were illegal, the outflanking rules would say: Transports with the scout ability may not outflank if they are carrying a unit that does not have the scout/infiltrate ability).

Now, when I successfully roll for this combo from reserves it MUST enter play. By RaW the vendetta MUST enter play by outflanking, as I can't change my mind once deployment is complete, and likewise the vets MUST come into play riding the vendetta.

How then is this handled? Is the unit lost? Does the vendetta never come on? Does the game end?

Actually, 40k is a PERMISSIVE rule set. It tells you what you CAN do, not what you can't in most cases. So that means, the fact that the Outflanking rules tell you what can outflank, and Vets have no rules allowing them to do so, that they cannot by definition.

I mean, using your logic, I can give all my Orks transports from the Marine Codex if I want, because it doesn't say anywhere in my Ork codex that I can't do this. Of course thats a silly example, and since the Ruleset is PERMISSIVE, I know that the Ork Codex tells me what I CAN do, not what I CAN'T.



Clay

He insists that Vendettas work differently because they are more useful than drop pods.