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I would also back up my argument that when embarked, units no longer move as infantry, they move exactly as the vehicle in the Movement Phase.

So considering the Vendetta is Outflanking (in the Movement Phase), a unit embarked in the Vendetta would be moving as the Vendetta is moving.

Burger Rage wrote:He insists that Vendettas work differently because they are more useful than drop pods.

Pretty much how I have seen it from the other threads he has wined about them.

By His logic, as has been pointed out, models inside transports cannot be moved more than their normal movement, meaning a a rhino cannot go 7" with a unit inside.

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:Basically it boils down to this:

At the beginning of the game, I declare my melta vets will begin the game embarked in a vendetta, and then I tell my opponent at deployment that my vendetta will be outflanking. At this point, we have not run into any problems, and there is no rule anywhere that says i cannot have my vendetta set to outflank (i.e. if this were illegal, the outflanking rules would say: Transports with the scout ability may not outflank if they are carrying a unit that does not have the scout/infiltrate ability).

Now, when I successfully roll for this combo from reserves it MUST enter play. By RaW the vendetta MUST enter play by outflanking, as I can't change my mind once deployment is complete, and likewise the vets MUST come into play riding the vendetta.

How then is this handled? Is the unit lost? Does the vendetta never come on? Does the game end?

Actually, 40k is a PERMISSIVE rule set. It tells you what you CAN do, not what you can't in most cases. So that means, the fact that the Outflanking rules tell you what can outflank, and Vets have no rules allowing them to do so, that they cannot by definition.

I mean, using your logic, I can give all my Orks transports from the Marine Codex if I want, because it doesn't say anywhere in my Ork codex that I can't do this. Of course thats a silly example, and since the Ruleset is PERMISSIVE, I know that the Ork Codex tells me what I CAN do, not what I CAN'T.



Clay

You didn't really answer my question. The rules allow me to begin the game with a unit in a transport. I put vets in my vendetta. The rules allow me (because the vendetta has scout) to place the vendetta in reserve and declare that it is outflanking. When the vendetta is set to come in, what happens? The vets MUST be in the vendetta, and the vendetta MUST come in by outflanking

apwill4765 wrote:

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways? The poster above mentioned that Storm Troopers can gain rules that allow them to Outflank inside a Vendetta. I mean, where do you guys stand in the RAW versus RAI debate? I had thought GWAR on one side of the fence, but now it seems as if he changes his position on a case by case basis. Which is fine, I feel that same way about the 40k rules, sometimes the RAI is obvious, other times it isn't, so you lean towards the RAW.


Clay

Does the Outflank rule say that a unit without the Outflank may not enter play while riding in an Outflanking vehicle? Does it say they can?

Answer, doesn't say either way.

Does the Deep Strike rule say that a unit without Deep Strike may enter play in a Deep Striking vehicle?
Same answer, doesn't say either way.

So neither side can use the rules to prove a point.

However (and you keep trying to toss it aside, because it really shoots your whole premise in the foot), we do have the Drop Pod example. It is fairly obvious that units without the Deep Strike rule are meant to be able to enter play while riding in a Drop Pod. From this we can infer that a unit can indeed ride into the game in a vehicle possessing (and using) an ability that the unit does not have. Same for Dark Eldar Screaming Jets. Two examples. Using those examples as a baseline, we can say that a unit without Outflank can ride into the game in an Outflanking transport. To prove this wrong, you have to shoot down the Drop Pod issue, which is the basis underlying the later points.

Go for it.

No, I argue the RaW, which is that they Can.

If you don't like it, that's your problem, not ours.

By your logic, Drop Pods don't work and transports with an embarked unit can never move more than 6".

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways? The poster above mentioned that Storm Troopers can gain rules that allow them to Outflank inside a Vendetta. I mean, where do you guys stand in the RAW versus RAI debate? I had thought GWAR on one side of the fence, but now it seems as if he changes his position on a case by case basis. Which is fine, I feel that same way about the 40k rules, sometimes the RAI is obvious, other times it isn't, so you lean towards the RAW.


Clay

Because the vendetta has more uses, it shouldn't have...more uses? Can you please give me a list of the appropriate uses as handed down by GW? No? OK, then let's just use all the possible uses as given by the rules. . .

EDIT: Also, the BGB does not anywhere tell me I can give orks space marine transports. It does tell me I can put units into transports that they have access to as an army, and that transports with the scout rule can arrive via outflanking. At that point, what must happen, due to my deployment, does happen.

No one at my shops, or in any of the tournaments I've run has ever even brought it up. People outflank with units in them all, and everyone considers it to be legal by the rules.

Not too strangely, every seems to think that the transports vehicles with the outlfank rule can load up troops and outflank with them.

I believe that the Intention is definitely that the unit gains the ability to Outflank but nowhere AT ALL does the rules clarify that they may do so.

Primarch wrote:

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways?
Clay

Which is totally irrelevant when discussing their ability to Outflank. It wouldn't matter if it had 20 other special rules, unless one of those special rules specifically mentioned that it interacted with the vehicle's ability to Outflank.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:I believe that the Intention is definitely that the unit gains the ability to Outflank but nowhere AT ALL does the rules clarify that they may do so.

So you stand by the assertion that Drop Pods do not work then?

Gwar! wrote:

Burger Rage wrote:He insists that Vendettas work differently because they are more useful than drop pods.

Pretty much how I have seen it from the other threads he has wined about them.

By His logic, as has been pointed out, models inside transports cannot be moved more than their normal movement, meaning a a rhino cannot go 7" with a unit inside.

Hmm, I'd appreciate it if you kept the personal attacks out of this GWAR. In all the rules arguments you have been in, were you wining? Neither am I. I am discussing it, like most others in this thread, like an adult. Please join us.


To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.



Clay

Another question: Does a fast skimmer transport give its flat out movement rule to the unit inside? If not, because the unit inside is infantry, it can only move 6" while a unit is embarked. Nothing SAYS that the transport confers this special movement to the unit inside. . .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Burger Rage wrote:He insists that Vendettas work differently because they are more useful than drop pods.

Pretty much how I have seen it from the other threads he has wined about them.

By His logic, as has been pointed out, models inside transports cannot be moved more than their normal movement, meaning a a rhino cannot go 7" with a unit inside.

Hmm, I'd appreciate it if you kept the personal attacks out of this GWAR. In all the rules arguments you have been in, were you wining? Neither am I. I am discussing it, like most others in this thread, like an adult. Please join us.


To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.



Clay

Your heavy weapons example is specifically addressed in the BGB. It states that units in a transport that has moved counts as moving for the purposes of firing heavy / rapid fire weapons.

I have a buddy who fields 6 Valkyries and 3 Vendettas. And he pretty much puts most of his guard army inside them whether they have outflank rule or not, and uses the outflank rule none-the-less.

I thinks its pretty damn cool and would never doubt the validity of such an awesome force.

but that is just my opinion.

Primarch wrote:

To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.

Clay

Nope, because the vehicle movement rules specifically tell us how shooting and vehicle movement interact. Nothing tells us about any interaction between Outflanking vehicles and embarked passengers, so we fall back on a known quantity, the Drop Pod Deep Strike with embarked passengers...........................

No, I stand by the assertion that the rules do not support a myriad of things in this game and we must use that bit of jelly behind our eyes.

Yummmm, jelly. Grape or Strawberry? Is it in a donut?

apwill4765 wrote:

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways? The poster above mentioned that Storm Troopers can gain rules that allow them to Outflank inside a Vendetta. I mean, where do you guys stand in the RAW versus RAI debate? I had thought GWAR on one side of the fence, but now it seems as if he changes his position on a case by case basis. Which is fine, I feel that same way about the 40k rules, sometimes the RAI is obvious, other times it isn't, so you lean towards the RAW.


Clay

Because the vendetta has more uses, it shouldn't have...more uses? Can you please give me a list of the appropriate uses as handed down by GW? No? OK, then let's just use all the possible uses as given by the rules. . .

EDIT: Also, the BGB does not anywhere tell me I can give orks space marine transports. It does tell me I can put units into transports that they have access to as an army, and that transports with the scout rule can arrive via outflanking. At that point, what must happen, due to my deployment, does happen.

It also tells you WHO CAN OUTFLANK. Where are the Vets gaining this power according to the RULES in the book again? Man, the example about the Orks was trying to be used to show that 40k is a PERMISSIVE rule set, I am not sure how to say this any more clear so you can get it. Do you understand what that means?

Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:

Primarch wrote:

To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.

Clay

Nope, because the vehicle movement rules specifically tell us how shooting and vehicle movement interact. Nothing tells us about any interaction between Outflanking vehicles and embarked passengers, so we fall back on a known quantity, the Drop Pod Deep Strike with embarked passengers...........................

Don, do you read my whole posts, or just stop when you feel like it and reply? Read the last part of my post where I go on to say that of course I can't move 12 inches and fire a heavy weapon, because there are rules preventing this. Seriously man, read my WHOLE post so I don't have to reply to this sillyness over and over again.



Clay

And Deep Strike tells you who can Deep Strike. Where is the Tac Squad in the Drop Pod getting it's ability to Deep Strike?

Willy go round in circles..............

-Sigh- Here we go again

Primarch wrote:

solkan wrote:Primarch, the burden is on you to prove that a unit embarked on a transport cannot ride the transport onto the board using deep strike or outflank. All you've done so far is repeat a vague and unfounded assertion that the transported unit must have the same deployment mechanism that the transport is using.

The transport unit has ability X which allows it to deep strike or outflank. The transported unit has permission to embark onto the transport during deployment. The transport arrives using its chosen deployment method.

Please cite the section in the rules which prohibits the transported unit from entering play embarked on the transport and later disembarking.



Seriously? Have you bothered to read any part of this thread or the others where this has been discussed?

You've been told repeatedly that you are wrong and that there is no basis for your statements, and yet you continue to repeat your conclusion without any evidence to back it up.

These are the facts that you obviously either ignored, or have no clue about.

I have quoted real rules from the real rulebook. One of them is the Outflank rule. It SPECIFICALLY tells you WHO CAN OUTFLANK. Specifically. Then, when I gave this as my argument. The opponents of said argument gave these responses;

"The Vets are NOT outflanking, only the Vendetta is."
"If Drop Pods work, then so do Vendettas"

Now, I hear their argument, and I counter with this;

The rulebook is again clear on how you can arrive from reserves, there are 3 ways. Deep strike, Outflank, move on from rear table edge. If there are no special deployment rules for Vets in the IG dex, and there aren't, then you must follow the rules in the rulebook. So, the Vets are indeed arriving using one of the three mentioned rules. Again, I quoted the rulebook here.

And this is the point where I came back and gave you a list of all of the other deployment mechanisms in the game which have nothing to do with your list of three elements. So my counter point is that your claim that there are only three deployment mechanisms and therefore the embarked unit must be using one of them fails because there are more deployment mechanisms than are listed in the book.

Where's your proof that a unit in an outflanking transport is either considered to be outflanking or required to be able to outflank?

Secondly, the Drop Pod argument is not valid because you can't use rules from other codexes to gain an advantage in a different codex. I am not sure why this is even part of the argument. The rules for the Drop pod may be questioned, but it certainly doesn't answer the Vendetta question.

Their replies;

"You are wrong, the drop pod works, so the Vendetta must."
"The Vets are not outflanking, the Vendetta is."



So now, why do you post that the burden of proof is on me, when I have posted the rules multiple times, and they have posted NO rules to support their position. Seriously, before commenting again, read the thread, and educate yourself about what's going on here.

And I counter that you have no idea how the rules for the game work at all. One rule gives the transport permission to outflank, another rule gives a unit permission to embark on the transport, and that's all that is needed for the transport to outflank. These are general rules, just like the fact that my unit can shoot at your unit as a specific instance of the general shooting rules without the need for a rule specifying that Space Marines can shoot Orks.

Here, I'll go first and quote the rules which support my conclusion:
1. Page 94, the first few sentences of the Outflank rule and paragraph five of Preparing Reserves allow a player to declare that the valkerie (for example) is outflanking when held in reserve.
2. Page 94, paragraph four of the Preparing reserves section gives a player permission to specify that another unit is embarked in a transport being held in reserve.
3. QED, the unit arrives on the outflanking transport without violating any rules.

Now your turn. Please quote me any rules backing up your position that the unit embarked in the transport must be able to outflank, or is even considered to be outflanking, if embarked on a transport which enters play using Outflank.

Edit: Edited because the quote brackets got messed up.

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways? The poster above mentioned that Storm Troopers can gain rules that allow them to Outflank inside a Vendetta. I mean, where do you guys stand in the RAW versus RAI debate? I had thought GWAR on one side of the fence, but now it seems as if he changes his position on a case by case basis. Which is fine, I feel that same way about the 40k rules, sometimes the RAI is obvious, other times it isn't, so you lean towards the RAW.


Clay

Because the vendetta has more uses, it shouldn't have...more uses? Can you please give me a list of the appropriate uses as handed down by GW? No? OK, then let's just use all the possible uses as given by the rules. . .

EDIT: Also, the BGB does not anywhere tell me I can give orks space marine transports. It does tell me I can put units into transports that they have access to as an army, and that transports with the scout rule can arrive via outflanking. At that point, what must happen, due to my deployment, does happen.

It also tells you WHO CAN OUTFLANK. Where are the Vets gaining this power according to the RULES in the book again? Man, the example about the Orks was trying to be used to show that 40k is a PERMISSIVE rule set, I am not sure how to say this any more clear so you can get it. Do you understand what that means?

Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:

Primarch wrote:

To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.

Clay

Nope, because the vehicle movement rules specifically tell us how shooting and vehicle movement interact. Nothing tells us about any interaction between Outflanking vehicles and embarked passengers, so we fall back on a known quantity, the Drop Pod Deep Strike with embarked passengers...........................

Don, do you read my whole posts, or just stop when you feel like it and reply? Read the last part of my post where I go on to say that of course I can't move 12 inches and fire a heavy weapon, because there are rules preventing this. Seriously man, read my WHOLE post so I don't have to reply to this sillyness over and over again.



Clay

You still didn't answer my question.

1) Vets are placed in vendetta at deployment (the rules specifically permit me to do this)
2) Vendetta deployment is declared as 'outflanking' (the rules specifically permit me to do this)
3) Vendetta arrives from reserves

What happens to this unit? Do you not have an answer or are you ignoring it? See, all permissive.

don_mondo wrote:And Deep Strike tells you who can Deep Strike. Where is the Tac Squad in the Drop Pod getting it's ability to Deep Strike?

Willy go round in circles..............

Fine, so your stance is that Drop Pods can't deep strike with units in them. Great, I can see where you would come to that conclusion using RAW. To me, the intent was clear, but the rules weren't.


Now, about the Vendetta?



Clay

Clay, my point was that we know you cannot shoot BECAUSE there's a rule that says so one way or the other. There is no rule saying one way or the other regarding embarked passengers in and Outflanking/Deep Striking vehicle. That was my point for answering you as I did, and I made taht point quite clearly, I thought. The whole interaction bit...........

Also, we all know you conveniently want to throw out drop pods because your logic breaks drop pods. So let's just throw out the pretense and get you to say it so we can all roll our eyes and go home. You don't think drop pods work by RaW, do you?

EDIT: you beat me to it.

OK then. I'm goin home

No, my stance is that Drop Pods can Deep Strike with units in them, and ergo, units can enter in Outflanking transports. To me, the INTENT there is clear............

apwill4765 wrote:

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

Primarch wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:

WarsawTom wrote:I don't know.

I play IG and have been outflanking with vendettas and veterans inside them since the new codex came out.

nobody at my local game store has ever given me trouble with it and that's whether playing casual or hosting an RTT or Ard Boyz tournament.

I guess it's up to house rules to decide since there is no clarification.

if doesn't bother your opponent, then why not?

but I admit that this is a pretty damn good topic, and I think it should've been addressed back when GW did it's IG errata/faq.

The reason it wasn't addressed is because it is completely absurd. There's no reason to. Despite what others say, Drop Pods use the exact same mechanic. There is no special rule for drop pods that allow them to work this way, but some would for no sane reason require that vendettas do have a special rule? It makes absolutely zero sense, and would be a waste of time and space in an FAQ/Errata.

Again, because the Vendetta can work in a lot of different ways? The poster above mentioned that Storm Troopers can gain rules that allow them to Outflank inside a Vendetta. I mean, where do you guys stand in the RAW versus RAI debate? I had thought GWAR on one side of the fence, but now it seems as if he changes his position on a case by case basis. Which is fine, I feel that same way about the 40k rules, sometimes the RAI is obvious, other times it isn't, so you lean towards the RAW.


Clay

Because the vendetta has more uses, it shouldn't have...more uses? Can you please give me a list of the appropriate uses as handed down by GW? No? OK, then let's just use all the possible uses as given by the rules. . .

EDIT: Also, the BGB does not anywhere tell me I can give orks space marine transports. It does tell me I can put units into transports that they have access to as an army, and that transports with the scout rule can arrive via outflanking. At that point, what must happen, due to my deployment, does happen.

It also tells you WHO CAN OUTFLANK. Where are the Vets gaining this power according to the RULES in the book again? Man, the example about the Orks was trying to be used to show that 40k is a PERMISSIVE rule set, I am not sure how to say this any more clear so you can get it. Do you understand what that means?

Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:

Primarch wrote:

To your second point, I guess by your logic, I can move 12 inches in a fast vehicle and fire a heavy weapon out right? Because the vehicle is confering it's abilities onto the unit inside? No, of course not, because those rules are completely different than what we are talking about here.

Clay

Nope, because the vehicle movement rules specifically tell us how shooting and vehicle movement interact. Nothing tells us about any interaction between Outflanking vehicles and embarked passengers, so we fall back on a known quantity, the Drop Pod Deep Strike with embarked passengers...........................

Don, do you read my whole posts, or just stop when you feel like it and reply? Read the last part of my post where I go on to say that of course I can't move 12 inches and fire a heavy weapon, because there are rules preventing this. Seriously man, read my WHOLE post so I don't have to reply to this sillyness over and over again.



Clay

You still didn't answer my question.

1) Vets are placed in vendetta at deployment (the rules specifically permit me to do this)
2) Vendetta deployment is declared as 'outflanking' (the rules specifically permit me to do this)
3) Vendetta arrives from reserves

What happens to this unit? Do you not have an answer or are you ignoring it? See, all permissive.

Ok,

1. Vets are placed in Vendetta at deployment, I agree, rules allow this.
2. Vendetta deployment is declared as outflanking. Wrong, the rules allow the Vendetta, but not the Vets to outflank, so how are you declaring the Vets to outflank?
3. See step 2.


You are breaking the rules at step 2, which do not permit you to outflank with Vets.



Clay

sorry don, i didn't quote, but i was speaking to clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Clay: I'm NOT declaring the vets are outflanking. I'm declaring the vendetta is outflanking, as permitted by the rules. This is where you can't make the understanding leap. The rules allow me to declare the vendetta as outflanking, and FORCE me to bring on the vets with the vendetta.

I know, my response was also to him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Primarch wrote:
Ok,

1. Vets are placed in Vendetta at deployment, I agree, rules allow this.
2. Vendetta deployment is declared as outflanking. Wrong, the rules allow the Vendetta, but not the Vets to outflank, so how are you declaring the Vets to outflank?
3. See step 2.

You are breaking the rules at step 2, which do not permit you to outflank with Vets.

Clay

OK,

1. Vets (change to Tac Squad) are placed in Vendetta (change to Drop Pod) at deployment, I agree, rules allow this.
2. Vendetta (Drop Pod) deployment is declared as outflanking (Deep Striking). Wrong, the rules allow the Vendetta (Drop Pod), but not the Vets (Tac Squad)to outflank (Deep Strike), so how are you declaring the Vets (Tac Squad) to outflank (Deep Strike)?
3. See step 2.

You are breaking the rules at step 2, which do not permit you to outflank (Deep Strike) with Vets (Tac Squad).

Yet to you the intent for the drop pod is clear......??

give us, us "outflank".