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loomisc wrote:I buy everything I need from my FLGS. I know I pay more for product than I could get it on line.

What the store offers me...
Place to game
Terrain to use
Place to meet new gamers
Place to talk to others and see their work
Good Service'
Same Day purchase on most items
Discount on bulk purchases

What an online store offers me...
Discount
Good Service (sometimes)

For those of you advocating discounts on product from your store consider this. I am not sure on the price of retail space in your area or utilities so this is based on what I know about local stuff. Our local store is 1000 square feet and of that I would bet 600 of it is open for gaming at any time. Rent and utilities probably come in the $1500 range (I only know the actual rent figures).

Now I believe his GW discount is 35% which is fairly standard from what I have seen. So to just make his rent and utilities he has to sell about $4300 of product to make rent. Now if he gave a 20% discount on that same product, he would need to sell $10,000 worth of product to make rent. Now he sells more product than GW and games in general, but by asking for a discount you are essentially asking him to increase his sales by more than 50% to cover that 20%.

I think the problem is most people fail to realize that any discount that the FLGS offers comes out of his money not GWs. GW gets the same money no matter who you buy from. And while there are some great online vendors, most of them are occupying office or warehouse space and that is much cheaper than retail space. They also only use the space they need. They don't have a large chunk of their rent tied up in what is simply a good will measure to show his commitment to his customer.

This.

If you derive value from your store, you should be supporting it.

If it's a bad store and doesn't help you enjoy your hobby more/more often, then that’s different. But good stores deserve support.

inc

I have to disagree with the whole "Don't walk in a store and say where you can get things cheaper" motif. Assuming the country of origin is a Capitolism run economy, price wars drive the market. Sometimes, you are doing your FLGS a favor saying where you can get things cheaper. Take TWS for instance, they offer a VERY nice discount to customers while at the same time, giving a BETTER discount to GS that order from them (due to their agreement with GW:US). Some stores don't know this or don't acknowledge this so sometimes, being "That guy" who says "Don't buy a land raider for 60$ when you can get it for 45$ on warstore" is actually helping the store own because it shows him a few things such as... A: Other businesses can do well offering this level of discount to their customers. B: There customers are well informed on their product and know what they want to buy (This is can be, in many instances, the BEST thing for a retailer) and C: The customer is morelikely to purchase MORE when they know they are getting a discount. (Making a 40$ profit on 1 Land Raider is less then making 2 sets of 25$ profit) <Clarification: PROFIT not REVENUE> just to name a few.

Now, that being said, I have been one to Upsale my friends at my FLGS and more frequently upsale a stranger (as an Ex-Retail employee, I know the power of "Peer-Customer Recommendation) to help out the FLGS but at the same time I will also tell them to buy their paint/glue from an Art Supply store or someplace where they aren't paying up to 8X markup... (why people still buy GW Glue/Paints is mindboggleing.. its just paint... you can actually get 4x better quality for 1/4th the price at most Art Stores) so there is a bit of balance there, but I do believe that a smart gaming store will be smart with how they properly adjust their prices to fit their community of gamers. (You don't open a Gaming Store to be able to buy a Yatch in 6 months is basically what I am saying)

However in the case of "Free Gaming Space" = no discount... I believe this is absurd. Free Gaming space is easy as HELL to come by... its called a Library. If you are still in High School, make a club to get classroom space after school. In College, there are plenty of activity centers. If more advanced then that, you probably should have some house space to use and even if that is cramped, the option of Library, Certain Resturants (Hell, even McDonalds works) or if you are lucky enough, place of employment (if you happen to work at a Hotel, you can use the Conference Rooms when they are not being rented, other examples like this... no, I don't mean "Cubicles" and the like) no matter your way, free gaming space is NOT hard to come by... if the store wants to get some sort of reward for offering the Game Space/Terrain/ ETC then there are plenty of other Ideas out there... For instance: I recall back in college we had a FLGS (and it was basically the ONLY GS for about 100 miles) that had "Semi-Free" space. They had about 2 tables in the "Shop" part of the store that were pretty much free play whenever you wanted, however the condition was to bring your own terrain. They also had a good 6 Tables in the back section of the store reserved for what was called "Members". The Membership cost 5$ a month or 15dollars for a semester (~6 months) or 25$ for a year. This fee allowed you to participate in store events, use store terrain at any time, and also (now this is the key part) let you recieve a 5% discount on all purchases <100$ and 10% on anything more then that (As well as occasional "seasonal" discounts, for instance, the Baneblade was 25% off when it first came out). This effectively made the 5$ a month (or 25$ a year if you were smart and planned on staying in school all year) neglegible as it paid for itself within like, 3 purchases (or 1 baneblade). Now, if you are a FLGS owner and you are reading this... CONSIDER THIS POLICY because I honestly believe that it is one of the best marketing strats I have ever seen.

I do want to add one last point however... as stated before, most LGSs have stupid overpriced snacks... shame on you guys for that! (Espcially ones with policies that prohibit outside food/drink...) Thats one thing I love about my current FLGS... they don't even bother with overpricing snacks and instead make you walk to 7-11 (ogod one block!).


tl;dr: FLGSs can easily make significant profits by following consumer patterns instead of bottom lines, or just give the rich kid free soda... then he will buy all your baneblades and make you rich!

I buy all paint from my store, but the only model I have purchased from them was a Drop Pod. But that's mainly because I moved to the area about a year ago and brought with me 3 full armies.

But I do spend more on boardgames at their store than 40k. Normally about every 3 months I buy another $40-$70 board game.

Backdraft005 wrote:
I knew one store that did it right, 16 oz cans of soda for a buck. That's how it should be. Tacking on 15% to the price is just an insult. I'll go get a sandwiche, thank you very much.

My FLGS has 12oz cokes for .50cents but no snacks; there's a subway next door though.


I got back into the game about 6 months ago and I've bought a little from my FLGS but I only play once every 2 weeks or so; I'm not really the ideal demographic. I have to say that I feel guilty for telling someone once "just buy it online", without thinking; if nothing else I should respect the store.

I buy odds and ends from my local GW Store since it's all I have. My Christmas list? got that from the Warstore. If the GW store closes over the NA Business shift (see Share news thread) I may not have a local store* anymore, so it won't matter.

* I define my local store as "within a 15 - 20 minute drive, including finding a parking space and walking in the door". I can't be bothered to travel farther. MY WoW is canceled until the expansion which should coincidentally be just in time for the lease at my local GW to be renewed this fall, so we'll see then whether I have a place to paint or whether I'm back to Azeroth.

Fair play to that store owner, he does exactly what I do at mine, listens to what customers need and gets it in. We kind of have to as its almost impossible to offer discounts (we do at tournaments and thats it) You have to spend your money wisely and get in what you think your gamers will want to buy.

I am a firm believer in supporting LGS, even if I travel to anotehr store to play in a tournament, I will usually spend about $50 there, and I own a store myself!

I rarely game at my FLGS, and being that it's about 30 minutes away, it's barely local. It's a nice smallish place with 4 tables, and a 10% off rewards program. I usually buy used and hunt for discounts, but I still I try to buy something when I'm around, and I'll occasionally order a book or somesuch. I recognize the value that the store has to the local gaming scene and in the future that I might game there more often, and I want them to still be there when that happens.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:inc

I have to disagree with the whole "Don't walk in a store and say where you can get things cheaper" motif. Assuming the country of origin is a Capitolism run economy, price wars drive the market. Sometimes, you are doing your FLGS a favor saying where you can get things cheaper....
...Some stores don't know this or don't acknowledge this so sometimes, being "That guy" who says "Don't buy a land raider for 60$ when you can get it for 45$ on warstore" is actually helping the store own because it shows him a few things such as...
.....;Clarification: PROFIT not REVENUE> just to name a few.

However in the case of "Free Gaming Space" = no discount... I believe this is absurd. Free Gaming space is easy as HELL to come by...

...I do want to add one last point however... as stated before, most LGSs have stupid overpriced snacks... shame on you guys for that! (Espcially ones with policies that prohibit outside food/drink...) Thats one thing I love about my current FLGS... they don't even bother with overpricing snacks and instead make you walk to 7-11 (ogod one block!).

tl;dr: FLGSs can easily make significant profits by following consumer patterns instead of bottom lines, or just give the rich kid free soda... then he will buy all your baneblades and make you rich!

Good for you for upselling at your FLGS, but there's a whole lot of other moldy baloney in your post that should be addressed.

1- It's not your store, so keep your freakin' mouth shut about other deals while you're in the store. Sure you've got free speach, but FLGS owner's got every right to ban you.

2- Most FLGS's are not stores with investors who will be placated by Gross Sales (what you refer to as "revenue") figures. They are privately run operations that need to make a PROFIT to survive. Selling two Raiders at 25% off makes less money for the store than one at 10% off.

3-The FLGS knows that things are cheaper elsehwhere and to assume they don't, or that they would benefit from such an annuoncment, is a rediculous piece of arrogance. Announcing the fact of cheaper prices in a store only hurts the FLGS and makes the person doing it look like an .....

4- Gamings space. It's not only the Free-ness, but the convenience and security. A few points. Many Libraries and community center's charge, especially in urban areas. Lots of folks aren't students anymore. Not everyone wants strangers to come into their home to game or even has room for gaming. Most homes don't operate with the convenience of a just-drop-in-and-find-an-opponent system.

5- Snacks. I'm as annoyed by overpriced snacks as the next guy, but as with any entertainment venue (sports, movies, etc) Food can help to support the business, outside food is not allowed, and you pay a premium for the convenience of that food.

Sorry if I'm coming down on you a bit hard, but them's the facts.

Sergeant Horse wrote:Fair play to that store owner, he does exactly what I do at mine, listens to what customers need and gets it in. We kind of have to as its almost impossible to offer discounts (we do at tournaments and thats it) You have to spend your money wisely and get in what you think your gamers will want to buy.
quote]

My point exactly. Offer what online retailers can't: great service. Listening to the customer and fill those needs. And on another note, I have canceled an order or two from online retailers because they and took 4 days to get back to my emailed question. At an FLGS, the customer can get an answer right away or quickly when the owner picks up the phone to speak to his distributor. It's tough to beat great face-to-face service!

Every good 'Hobby' type of shop in the Rochester MN area has folded. When I first came here there were 2 places that sold models/trains/RC etc. Granted none of these places carried GW or gaming products so there was no need for any gaming space.

Two closed soon after moving here, the other stayed around til a few years ago. During that time a nice Gaming shop opened up and was around for 5 to 6 years but that folded a year and a half ago. I supported it with any purchase I could make but increase in rent over a 0% gain in profit meant bye bye.

There is now only one place where you can walk in and buy some GW products and still no gaming space. Any other gaming stuff like RPG's has to be purchased at a book store. If you need modelling supplies you may be able to find what you need at the local Hobby Lobby or Michaels both of which are horrific stores. The only dedicated Hobby store left that sells models/supplies is so small I think I have a walk-in closet bigger than it.

There is an active gaming community/club in the area but they meet once a quarter from what I know. It's really a sad state and there's no real satisfaction to my love for gaming. I'd love to venture out and start a gaming store but given the market and the success rate of such businesses I have no confidence to do so. Meh..

I buy mostly everything from my FLGS. I also play there almost exclusively (of course, it's free to play there so even if I didn't buy I would still play there). Drinks are $1.50 for a bottle (I'm at work so I'm spacing on sizes right now) and $2.00 for things like Monster drinks (ugh). Snacks are $1 for chips, candybars, etc. and $0.50 for twinkies and the like.

As far as discounts go, for $25 a year you get a 10% discount on all items, 25% discount on new comics (they are half comic half game store), a gift card worth 1% of everything you spent at the end of the yearand a t-shirt. Oh also member exclusive parties liek our new years party (free food, drinks, open till 1am it was awsome). And while their GW stuff is GW prices, at least it's not marked up.

There's a thread here for discussing how awsome your FLGS is: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/278926.page

Sorry. Hit the quote button wrong apparantly which included my response with what Sergeant Horse had already posted.

Agree with Eilef, some of Daemon-Archon Ren's sentiments were distinctly off-base and insulting to store owners.

100% disagree with DA Ren.

Playing at a McDonalds or Library would increase theft/sticky fingers from small kids, to me. Not to mention the fact that you have to lug all of your crap (including terrain) and find a 4x6 table for playing 40k. Give me a break.

Were I a game store owner and some smart-mouth kid said "Don't buy that here! I can get you a 25% discount online..." Guess who would be banned from my store and my tournaments?

I play in a game store about once every 2 months AT BEST. Probably closer to once per Quarter. And that's only because 1 gaming friend live on the far side of Houston. The rest of the time, I'm at my house or 3 other friends houses. I don't play tournaments. I don't play strangers. Therefore, I don't feel guilty spending 75% online and 25% at the local game stores.

However, everytime I go to the store to play, I've spent $50 to $100. I put off buying certain things when I know I'm going to play my friend there. Doesn't make me the best or worst customer, I suppose.

What do you store owners feel about that? Is that fair?

Eilif wrote:
1- It's not your store, so keep your freakin' mouth shut about other deals while you're in the store. Sure you've got free speach, but FLGS owner's got every right to ban you.

Depending on the state, but even so, in states where merchants reserve the right to refuse services, a letter to the triple B will leave them with a heavy fine and could lose them their license (depending on the community). I've never been asked to leave a LGS for mentioning cheaper prices and actually...* (See Point 3)

Eilif wrote:
2- Most FLGS's are not stores with investors who will be placated by Gross Sales (what you refer to as "revenue") figures. They are privately run operations that need to make a PROFIT to survive. Selling two Raiders at 25% off makes less money for the store than one at 10% off.

If they are as you say above then they appreciate the Revenue MORE then that of an investor solution (as you would recieve more profit from revenue as a private owner then by means of "working for someone else") so actually, selling 1 raider at 10% off (Assuming raiders are 40$ and cost the owner 15$ a pop) would net you 19$ profit where in selling two raiders at 25% off would net you 10$ profit. Now say that second raider (the other 34$ raider) never sold, and eventually either hit clearance for 5$ or was sold back to the vendor at end of life (0.01$ is the average for something of this nature) then you need to take 10-14$ out of the profit from the first raider + the cost of the retail space that the "Lonely raider" ate up for all those months.

That being said... while the above is not too likely, there is a reasonable more amount of math that would need to be calculated before any definitive answer can be given. From what I have seen however regarding the profit margins of GW items, a store (especially privately owned) would be well off selling their merchandise at around 10-20% off MSRP.

Eilif wrote:
3-The FLGS knows that things are cheaper elsehwhere and to assume they don't, or that they would benefit from such an annuoncment, is a rediculous piece of arrogance. Announcing the fact of cheaper prices in a store only hurts the FLGS and makes the person doing it look like an .....

*...I have been thanked for letting a store owner/staff member know of different mediums other then GWs distribution services to get their products... as the other member posted, his FLGS is only recieving a 35% discount on GW merchandise which he then has to resell.. If you are a Gaming store and thats the only deal you are recieving... hell... I'll tell you where you can get a MUCH better deal (in the states anyway, not too sure how it works on the other side of the pond). (25% is less then the Corperate Discount...)

Some localgaming stores are literally old hobbiests/collectors that came across some money and decided to open a shop, or they had/have community investors who believed in their idea. This does not instantly make them masters of the market of wargaming... so sometimes, letting your LGS know about things like TWS's distributer service (http://www.thewarstore.com/WholesaleShippingPolicy.html) may save his business, or save you and the other gamers lots of money! (unless he is greedy and uses such means for additional profits to get that Yatch I mentioned earlier... )

Eilif wrote:
4- Gamings space. It's not only the Free-ness, but the convenience and security. A few points. Many Libraries and community center's charge, especially in urban areas. Lots of folks aren't students anymore. Not everyone wants strangers to come into their home to game or even has room for gaming. Most homes don't operate with the convenience of a just-drop-in-and-find-an-opponent system.

What public library charges? Libraries are part of your taxes, as are community centers (for the most part). Sure, large organised events cost money at community centers, but that is only if you require third-party staffing, or don't clean up your mess. Many community centers have a system in which you could borrow certain portions of the building (like the Gym for instance) for an event if you schedule it early enough in advanced. If you make a community organisation for it, then not only do you get appropriate designated space, but in many cases, you can request funding for event expenses (such as food, etc). Wargaming is technically a recreational activity, and as such, all you require is an appropriately sized organisation (aka people who would support the idea) and you can typically make it happen. I understand however, that a LGS is just a much EASIER form of game space... just keep in mind that it is not the ONLY game space.

Eilif wrote:
5- Snacks. I'm as annoyed by overpriced snacks as the next guy, but as with any entertainment venue (sports, movies, etc) Food can help to support the business, outside food is not allowed, and you pay a premium for the convenience of that food.

If I go to an Arcade, I can eat my subway and drink my sobe.

If I go to a Gym, I can drink my own gatorade if I bring it with me.

Those entertainment venues you listed only recieve money from the tickets you buy to get in, and occasional gift shop purchases, and most of their money comes from the snack industry. If you are saying FLGS work the same, then why should I bother buying the GW stuff from them... I'm just using them as a venue to play warhammer and get the occasional snack if I am hungry

I do see your points, and I do support LGSs (especially the friendly ones) I just have this tendancy to "call out" things and in particular to GW, the amount of profit they syphon out of their customers is disgusting... and LGSs shouldn't do the same. (I've had this mentality since one time a local game store owner in my area sold a 3rd edition starter set ((the Dark Eldar/SM one that was MSRPing for like, a hundred bucks back then)) for 25$ and said "Meh, I still made profit"... )

I understand supporting LGSs, I also understand the many storeowners here that may be thinking "Who is this brat saying I overcharge" but the sad truth is, if you are charging face MSRP for GW products, either you yourself are overcharging, you are being overcharged for your supply, or you need to balance out other costs to compete with the online market. I know the GW pamphlets are promising and tempting, but realism vs marketing (GWs Marketing towards suppliers) are two different worlds.

Bottom line, if you go into any retail establishment and start telling their customers, on their property, that that they can save money elsewhere, they would be in their rights to kick you out of their store.

For example, if you went into K-mart and started telling people that they could save money on this or that at WalMart across the street. K-mart could kick you out of their store.

Not a BBB expert, but can they really fine companies? Let alone fine them for baring a person from their establishment. Sounds far fetched to me.

GG

They can really only "fine" companies for some kind of active discrimination(like refusing to allow people wearing black pants in).

Refusal of service is standard fare.

Unless of course you hit them with the charge of say... unethical business practices. (I.E. barring a person from an establishment due to explaining the prices of equal items for lesser prices in a Free Market economy/ Free speach society.) Now, am I suggesting marching with picket signs infront of your LGS with the decree of "Fair prices is fair game!". Hell no. Moderation people, it's not just white and black. At the same time, if you know someone who is interested in the hobby of wargaming, espeically in regards to Warhammer, but has a bit of a tighter budget, or is very "naive", pointing them in the right direction is fair game.

Keep in mind, if the refusal is due to Slander or conflict of interests, then it is completely fine to "Ban" someone from the establishment. Breaking the law and telling the truth are two VERY different things.

Believe me, I hate "that guy" who feels he has the right to "heroicly" dissent to a store based on their prices, as I also can't stand "That guy" who boasts about how he paid 200$ for his 5000point list. Much moreso I cant STAND thieves. But being fair, being honest, espeically towards a friend but even moreso to a potential new opponent, is, IMO, the right thing to do.

Thats why I give massive credit to one of my FLGS (The Complete Stragetist) that told a discouraged looking potential gamer about TWS so that he could buy what he needed to get started (even honored their price for AOBR) and just "pick up the pieces" at the store when he was ready.

Granted, this was an EMPLOYEE of the store and not the OWNER, but I am sure the owner would have been happy to provide the same level of service...

@ DA Ren: If you're going to use the 'there's room for a game anywhere' argument, there's a sidewalk outside. Seriously though, you pay taxes to keep the library and high school open (unless the school is private, in which case you pay tuition to go there, just like with college), and you have to buy food at the mcdonald's to stay there. The only place that might fit the bill is your house if you're a homeowner but you still pay a mortgage and property tax. Ideally, the 'Gaming Space' at the FLGS should be more than just tables, it should be the community of people that go there.

We have 13 full tables at my store, and you can come in and play all day without buying a thing. Again, our regulars understand the unquantifiables that exist, and support us accordingly.

I was going to go into a point-counterpoint with you over the economics, but then I re-read your post and noticed you're basing your assumptions on land raiders being $40, and costing a retailer $15. At this point, I realized you were posting... frooomm the paaassst , and that my whizz-bang, nonsense futuremaths would be meaningless to you.

Seriously though, you can't base legitimate economic discussion on a collection of 'this one time' personal anecdotes and incorrect numbers.

Back to the topic; I understand that not everyone can be a regular at a store that likes them and wants their business (of which many do not in either case, I've worked with some of them!), but those that do find that there's perks that aren't necessarily based on something as sterile as a percentage discount. If I know one of my guys is looking to build IG, and some dude comes in and trades a tablefull of guardsmen in to the store for credit, before I dump them all in the biz bin I'm probably going to fire off a text to my guy, give him first dibs if he wants them. Stuff like that.

-Dis.

@DA Ren
I think it's more about the person standing in the middle of the store saying (loudly) "Hey you can get this same thing WAAAY cheaper [insert cheaper place] hurr!!"

You're basing some of your math on badly incorrect information about the prices of GW's products. Your assumptions about how much discounting is viable to a local store owner are based on bad data.

Telling a customer of a store that they can get one of its products cheaper elsewhere is absurdly rude, and certainly grounds for being escorted out of the store.

My analogy is simple: do you want into a restuarant/bar and eat/drink for free no you most likely do not. Do you get a discount at some bars/restuarants, yes probably so.

Please always keep in mind your independent retailers offer a great service to you. Be thankful if you get a discount because not all independent retailers can afford to offer that services. If you game there, buy stuff there! Don't just buy paints/the occassion brushes. By some models. Bring them back all painted up. Offer to paint display pieces for them, offer to run tournments. These are the people that without you probably would not know the guys you game with. I'm all about saving some cash, but don't be afraid to give back, and buy some of those other models or your FLGS will be gone.

If your gaming shop is a GW. Still support them if you use their tables. The thing gamers miss about GW is the ability to help them in other ways. Playing a full painted army in GW helps them. I've played my skaven and demon's there, and get the "wow" from local guys countless times. I give list advice, and painting advice. The manager's a good guy. I've had my differences with GW in the past like everyone else, but still will buy some product there.

Sorry, but you have offered no additional evidence for your assumpions. It's a slow day at work, so here goes...

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Depending on the state, but even so, in states where merchants reserve the right to refuse services, a letter to the triple B will leave them with a heavy fine and could lose them their license (depending on the community)...

You're wrong about this. Filing with the BBB just leaves you with a report that other people can check if they want and almost no one does. There is no fining or losing of license unless it can be proved that you were descriminated against based on race, creed, gender and or sexual orientation (in some states).

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
... so actually, selling 1 raider at 10% off (Assuming raiders are 40$ and cost the owner 15$ a pop) would net you 19$ profit where in selling two raiders at 25% off would net you 10$ profit. Now say that second raider (the other 34$ raider) never sold, ...
... then you need to take 10-14$ out of the profit from the first raider + the cost of the retail space that the "Lonely raider" ate up for all those months....
.... From what I have seen however regarding the profit margins of GW items, a store (especially privately owned) would be well off selling their merchandise at around 10-20% off MSRP.

GW does not give a 55% discount to retailers. Your math is way off, and you're making alot of assumptions about clearance, retail space, etc. 20% off is just not feasible for many retailers if they hope to survive.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
...I have been thanked for letting a store owner/staff member know of different mediums other then GWs distribution services to get their products... as the other member posted, his FLGS is only recieving a 35% discount on GW merchandise which he then has to resell..
....letting your LGS know about things like TWS's distributer service (http://www.thewarstore.com/WholesaleShippingPolicy.html) may save his business, or save you and the other gamers lots of money...

Telling a retailier about a cheaper supplier is not at all the same thing as telling a customer about a cheaper retailer while in another retailers shop. I of course agree with you about the helping out your FLGS find a new supplier, but it's not germaine to my comment or our discussion.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
What public library charges? Libraries are part of your taxes, as are community centers (for the most part). ...
...Wargaming is technically a recreational activity, and as such, all you require is an appropriately sized organisation (aka people who would support the idea)...
... LGS is just a much EASIER form of game space... just keep in mind that it is not the ONLY game space.

As I said before, lots of libraries charge, and so do many community centers. I never said LGS was the only space.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
If I go to an Arcade, I can eat my subway and drink my sobe.
If I go to a Gym, I can drink my own gatorade if I bring it with me.
Those entertainment venues you listed only recieve money from the tickets you buy to get in, and occasional gift shop purchases, and most of their money comes from the snack industry.

The arcade Charges you to game, and the Gym charges you a monthly fee to enter. You're FLGS usually charges you neither. Just pay for the snax.

disdainful wrote:@ DA Ren: If you're going to use the 'there's room for a game anywhere' argument, there's a sidewalk outside. Seriously though, you pay taxes to keep the library and high school open (unless the school is private, in which case you pay tuition to go there, just like with college), and you have to buy food at the mcdonald's to stay there. The only place that might fit the bill is your house if you're a homeowner but you still pay a mortgage and property tax. Ideally, the 'Gaming Space' at the FLGS should be more than just tables, it should be the community of people that go there.

I completely agree with the last sentence. The rest sorta sounds like "There is no such thing as free gaming space" which if this is the case, why does it matter if a store offers "free" gaming space(You have to pay for the gas to get to the store, etc)?

disdainful wrote:
We have 13 full tables at my store, and you can come in and play all day without buying a thing. Again, our regulars understand the unquantifiables that exist, and support us accordingly.

Does it cost you anything to have people play in your store? (again, does it cost you anything MORE then it would to have them their otherwise. Other then retail space, which if being used as a form of marketing the product in the shop, is being used appropriately)

disdainful wrote:
I was going to go into a point-counterpoint with you over the economics, but then I re-read your post and noticed you're basing your assumptions on land raiders being $40, and costing a retailer $15. At this point, I realized you were posting... frooomm the paaassst , and that my whizz-bang, nonsense futuremaths would be meaningless to you.

lol.

There is a VERY good chance I have my prices outdated, I wont argue with you there.

But would your "future maths" be Meaningless? Not at all! Infact, I would love to hear the actual figures of the current point scale for the cost via GW, ACD or other distributor... that being said, I know you are not allowed to disclose that information publically, but a rough (honest) estimate.

disdainful wrote:
Seriously though, you can't base legitimate economic discussion on a collection of 'this one time' personal anecdotes and incorrect numbers.

Back to the above, legitimately and honestly, the cost of GW to the consumer is far greater then that of a retailer, much like practically every OTHER product availible in the retail world, and yes I know that this is simply the way "Retail" and this sector of the Free Market Economy works (for the most part) but you should also be willing to admit that charging 7 bucks less for a squad of spacemarines wouldn't break your bank... especially if it increased the number of space marine boxes you sold by X.

Again I am an avid fan of my FLGS (The Complete Stratagist if anyone else is in the area) and I STRONGLY insist buying from a LGS instead of a GW (any day of the week!) I only bring up the reasons why a store MIGHT want to consider offering competitive prices (aka 5-20% off GW IN STORE price) BECAUSE of the love I hold for the FLGS (aka, don't want it to die to things like Ebay etc) however I don't consider TWS(The War Store) an issue as, lets not forget, TWS started out as a FLGS and still is one to this day (.... Kinda?)

also @CrazyThang.

As far as "That Guy" is concerned, I think the regs of the store should handle him, instead of making the owner get his hands dirty (unless the kid isn't buying anything, then just get his car Towed if your lot is restricted to "Customers Only" or don't validate his parking!)

One of the things you have to keep in mind about going to most retail stores is that they are, in fact, private property. Property that the store owner has made open to the public for the purposes of selling you stuff, sure, but private nonetheless. I can throw anyone out of my store for just about any reason, so long as it's not discriminatory.

It is absolutly within your right to exercise free speech, but I don't have to let you do it on my property. Your rights end where mine begin...and they begin when you set foot in my store.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Unless of course you hit them with the charge of say... unethical business practices. (I.E. barring a person from an establishment due to explaining the prices of equal items for lesser prices in a Free Market economy/ Free speach society.) Now, am I suggesting marching with picket signs infront of your LGS with the decree of "Fair prices is fair game!". Hell no. Moderation people, it's not just white and black. At the same time, if you know someone who is interested in the hobby of wargaming, espeically in regards to Warhammer, but has a bit of a tighter budget, or is very "naive", pointing them in the right direction is fair game.

Keep in mind, if the refusal is due to Slander or conflict of interests, then it is completely fine to "Ban" someone from the establishment. Breaking the law and telling the truth are two VERY different things.

Believe me, I hate "that guy" who feels he has the right to "heroicly" dissent to a store based on their prices, as I also can't stand "That guy" who boasts about how he paid 200$ for his 5000point list. Much moreso I cant STAND thieves. But being fair, being honest, espeically towards a friend but even moreso to a potential new opponent, is, IMO, the right thing to do.

Thats why I give massive credit to one of my FLGS (The Complete Stragetist) that told a discouraged looking potential gamer about TWS so that he could buy what he needed to get started (even honored their price for AOBR) and just "pick up the pieces" at the store when he was ready.

Granted, this was an EMPLOYEE of the store and not the OWNER, but I am sure the owner would have been happy to provide the same level of service...

I am so glad I never have to come across you in a store. You grasp of business is basic at best and your line of reasoning about being kicked out a store and BBB is tenuous and sounds like a "barrack room lawyer". Frankly, in this thread you come across as a interferring know it all that borders on being obnoxious.

If you came to my store and did that you would be out on your ear closely followed by that idiot employee.

You sound just like TFG who stands next to a till commenting for things that have nothing to do with you thinking he needs to share his ideas with the whole world and that he knows best.

Oh, PS, heard about the "right to refuse service". Ofcourse the BBB might have an issue for the shop owner discriminating against obnoxious know it alls.

Thankfully, headofhair, that one isn't on the list yet.

DISCRIMINATE POWERS, ACTIVATE!

I try to support the LGS as much as possible. With 3 major ones in the area, I spread out the joy. I have purchased items from the different stores. The only time I purchase online is if the LGS cannot get it for me which is very rare or if I need just bits like Cold One Bodies.

It really is this simple. If you have a good FLGS - support it. If it is your main place of playing and meeting other toy soldier geeks support it. Supporting it means biting the bullet and paying retail for most of your stuff. Yes it is a pain and yes I know within the click or two of a mouse I can save 20 - 30%.

If your LGS sucks, don't buy from it. If you play 90% in a group at your home why should you have an obligation to buy from a LGS. Sure, get stuff if you need it but I don't see anything wrong with buying online.

This is a small niche market. Customers are reasonably finite in a given area - our hobby doesn't exactly attract many people to it. The time commitment can be a killer. Stores need you to purchase from them @ a sufficient volume @ an appropriate GP to make money to stay in business. Cutting GP if volume doesn't significantly increase in the short term is the beginning of a "death spiral". All you end up doing is giving a discount to people who would have purchased anyway.

Eilif wrote:Sorry, but you have offered no additional evidence for your assumpions. It's a slow day at work, so here goes...

No apology required, it is though debate that we learn not only new information, but more about ourselves. You shoud never feel the need to apologise for disagreeing with me.

Eilif wrote:
You're wrong about this. Filing with the BBB just leaves you with a report that other people can check if they want and almost no one does. There is no fining or losing of license unless it can be proved that you were descriminated against based on race, creed, gender and or sexual orientation (in some states).

unless you believe that the actions were a violation of the BBBs standards of Trust. Discrimination of the above reasons are ILLEGAL and in some states impose criminal charges as well as civil. Violation of Standards of trust won't get you thrown in jail (for the most part) nor do they constitute civil suit (such as discrimination) but they can sometimes cause serious fines as well as suspension or revocation of a business license.

Eilif wrote:
GW does not give a 55% discount to retailers. Your math is way off, and you're making alot of assumptions about clearance, retail space, etc. 20% off is just not feasible for many retailers if they hope to survive.

The "Assumption" of clearance was made in direct reference to the ToysRUs Merchant Return Rate on Games Workshop products (remember, LOOOOONG ago TRU used to carry GW, I spent most of my highschool-early college years at TRU, and I worked many a manifest and inventory sheet.)

Retail space will obviously vary dependant upon location (and thus the omissal from the factoring)

And I must disagree that a retailer would fail to survive offering 20% on GW products if said discount were to increase their sales (as it has proven to do so with other businesses that offer it). If the 20% is really putting them so deep into the red, they probably have other accounting issues that require addressing. (Like, too many overpayed employees JUST AS AN EXAMPLE)

Eilif wrote:
Telling a retailier about a cheaper supplier is not at all the same thing as telling a customer about a cheaper retailer while in another retailers shop. I of course agree with you about the helping out your FLGS find a new supplier, but it's not germaine to my comment or our discussion.

Had I not told the customer about TWS in the example, what reason would the store owner have to ask about their supplying branch? The point of bringing it up to the Sales person as well as the customer is to let the sales person know that it is possible not only to survive by offering said discount, but also to THRIVE! (Sadly, this works both ways)

Eilif wrote:
As I said before, lots of libraries charge

as I asked before... what library charges? (also, the average rate for a 15-45 person room based on about 20 diff community centers I googled came to 7$ an hour... so that would mean if you organised a 16 man tourny on some sort of Online Medium in which wargamers talked about wargaming... <Looks up> Whoa! we are on one! it would cost the group all of 2-3$ a person for a 4-5hour game)

Eilif wrote:The arcade Charges you to game, and the Gym charges you a monthly fee to enter. You're FLGS usually charges you neither. Just pay for the snax.

Then why use movies (14$ a ticket) or sports games (Even more expensive then the movie) as an example? My point of the Arcade and the Gym was that both offer Snack Bars (typically) but don't require you to use their food products as they don't rely on the snack bars for their source of Income (as should be the case with a Gaming Store, snacks should be a Convience, thus the price, and there is no "force" in "Convience")

Again, all that considered, I don't hate the Players, just the Game(s Workshop). I support FLGS and I support fair prices.

Now, as for Rx's point... if you own the property and treat it as Private you run into two problems...

#1 that takes factoring Rent into the costs as you arent Leaseing the property if you are privately owning it. (However, almost every gaming store I have been too have been leased on Commercial Zoning land)

and #2 If you are excersing personal private rights of Residential Property on a Commercially Zoned plot of land, you aren't really doing it right, and in contrast, if you are operating a business on Residentially zoned property, you aren't really doing it right either.

Unless you have found a way to brake the system (which Kudos to you if you have) in order to run a Business, you have to obtain a Business License... which I have yet to see one of those that doesn't forfiet such claims as "I have the right of controlled speech in my establishment" Again, I can only speak for US business law here. If you are located across the pond (or even above the border) I have no idea, nor do I claim to have any idea, how your laws work.

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