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Sergeant Horse wrote:If you were in my store and walked up to me and said "I'd buy from you, but your prices are too high", I'd be pretty offended, considering 1) my msrp are set by GW (I don't mark up) and 2) I'm not charging you for the use of the tables/electricity/AC/chairs/army builder etc.

Actually, if I were to buy your products, that is exactly what I would be doing, paying for all of that stuff and more.

That aside, I wouldn't walk up to someone just to tell them that they are expensive. I would however, after making several small purchases, chat a bit about discounts. Most stores offer somewhere in the region of 10% off, after 200$ or so. I feel that is fair, and would generally stand up pretty well to online retailers after shipping costs. 15-20% would be pound for pound, a much better deal than most online retailers though, and if I can strike up a deal in that region, I will. Annually, I spend in the region of 300-500$ on minis and such, which is substantial enough for me to hunt down good deals.

I give my customers alot of attention, extending to teaching them to play, building army lists etc, but if your someone who doesn't want to support the store and help keep it open, then I won't go out of my way to help you. I'll still say hello to you, but I won't jump head over heels to serve you.

What happened to just being a customer? If a person uses your space regularly, and does not purchase anything at all (not even painting supplies, dice, whatever...), then it makes sense to generally ignore them. I would like to find a FLGS, that I could get a minimum of 15% off of products, optionally a trade day for the local players. I am lucky enough to have the latter, but it is not a regular thing. I am not the kind of player that cares all that much about gaming at stores, I like to drink beer while I play, so... yeah, beer is good. I know a couple of places that might not mind, but generally it would not be acceptable. If a store has nice tables, I would be likely to play more often there.

Curious as to why you're printing flyers if you're an online retailer specializing in something as obscure as miniature wargaming.

They used to try and hard sell in the Dublin City GW store but they've relaxed a bit over the last year.

When I say I'm looking for a monolith, they don't lash into a soliloquy about the rest of the army anymore.
Unless that's just becasue I used to sit there and look at the models, hold them in my hand,
go up to the till with them and only buy what I wanted. ??

I don't play in the local GW store much and purchase my GW stuff (when not online) from a store around the corner
which offers a 10% discount on marked prices all the time.

I like the FLGS GW but only to have a quick chat about the latest upcoming or next massive Apoc battles.

disdainful wrote:Having seen the retail situation from all angles (GW trade sales, GW retail, Independent retail), I would say it's imperative to contribute to your FLGS. I saw the same downward spiral over and over when I was in trade sales: new store opens, full of promise; things go well, initial stock sells; newness wears off, sales taper; owners panic, offer big discounts on marquee ranges like GW; store stops making money, can't pay rent, closes. I saw that happen in no more than 3 months in one case verbatim from start to finish. The model of an FLGS is so different from even a sales-focused GW store; especially if they provide gaming space... It has to have the support of the people that game there, or it will fail.

At my store we don't really push sales, so to speak; when someone comes in and starts talking about how they can get something cheaper online, my usual response is a shrug followed by "go for it". Our regulars all get it; that if they want to have their awesome free game space complete with bins and bins of custom terrain, plenty of open-copy games to just sit and play, counter time and shop talk with staff on tap, a painting space, a great bitz bin to dig through, air-conditioning, a large community of gamers (many of whom will come out at random times and on short-notice for a game), and rolling reclining leather office chairs to sit in while they play... they should buy something once in a while.

To a bit, first I add one caveat to the above: candy and soda don't count toward the whole 'buy something once in a while' thing! Second, if you have an awesome back-door hookup for deals on product, good job. I mean that sincerely; since I'm the same. I paid retail for one model, once: an old metal chaos terminator lord from GW Glendale in like 1999-2000. All I ask is that you keep it to yourself while you're in the store. That guy holding a box of tactical marines doesn't have your hookup, and unless you're going to deal him in on it, shut up about it! Standing there gushing about how great of a deal you get and how only chumps pay retail only accomplishes the goal of making that guy feel like a chump, which will preclude him from buying that box of marines so as not to exhibit his new-found chumpitude, which kills my sale and makes me really not like you. Finally, don't ask me for a discount. I don't come to your house to hang out, then take the remote, turn the TV to what I want to watch, and ask you to make me a sandwich, too. Fully half of our space is given over to a free open gaming area, and we have to pay rent on that.

Ok, over.

-Dis.

I know this will be a +1 post, but quite frankly, I agree with you fully.

One thing they did at my LGS once, at the WD birhtday or something, was if you bought a 12 month WD subscription from them you got a free blister pack or small boxed set (for example a necron lord) as a present. If you got a 24 month one you got a bigger boxed set (like some dire avengers, i think some even went up to £25 in worth, like tanks etc.).

It was quite good, though the gifts were wrapped in 'happy birthday' wrapping paper, so you didn't know what you'd be getting, unfortuantely. My step-brother bought a 12 month subscription and said that if it was an army i collected i'd have it, if it was an army he collected, he'd have it and that we'd share it if none of us collected that army.

We got some heavy weapon SM, one with a lascannon, one with a plasma cannon. We each painted one (i got the lascannon one, i think) in some random chapter colours. It's now sitting on a shelf in the garage with the rest of my models and i'll give it to my uncle to re-paint if he ever puts a long-fang squad in his SW army.

Wrexasaur wrote:
Actually, if I were to buy your products, that is exactly what I would be doing, paying for all of that stuff and more.

That aside, I wouldn't walk up to someone just to tell them that they are expensive. I would however, after making several small purchases, chat a bit about discounts. Most stores offer somewhere in the region of 10% off, after 200$ or so. I feel that is fair, and would generally stand up pretty well to online retailers after shipping costs. 15-20% would be pound for pound, a much better deal than most online retailers though, and if I can strike up a deal in that region, I will. Annually, I spend in the region of 300-500$ on minis and such, which is substantial enough for me to hunt down good deals.

At that point, its not a matter of buying cheaper goods, but do you want to go somewhere where you can easily pick up games, meet new people, have all the set up and the like prepared, or do you just want to play at home with your friends. What I'm saying is, if you want the first one, then do all your shopping at your FLGS and show support, if the latter, then buy wherever you wish.

I give my customers alot of attention, extending to teaching them to play, building army lists etc, but if your someone who doesn't want to support the store and help keep it open, then I won't go out of my way to help you. I'll still say hello to you, but I won't jump head over heels to serve you.

What happened to just being a customer? If a person uses your space regularly, and does not purchase anything at all (not even painting supplies, dice, whatever...), then it makes sense to generally ignore them. I would like to find a FLGS, that I could get a minimum of 15% off of products, optionally a trade day for the local players. I am lucky enough to have the latter, but it is not a regular thing. I am not the kind of player that cares all that much about gaming at stores, I like to drink beer while I play, so... yeah, beer is good. I know a couple of places that might not mind, but generally it would not be acceptable. If a store has nice tables, I would be likely to play more often there.

What I'm trying to get across to you is that a store cannot offer a 15% discount continously and stay in business, it just can't happen in this economy. I try to offer as much discount as possible, (we do 10% discounts (and 15% to our club members) on tournament days), do a trade day a month and hold adult lock ins where you can drink your beer and play, but if we did any o fthat stuff day in, day out, we'd be out of business and alot of people would have no place to meet and hang out.
What I'd suggest doing if you want a store to try be good to you, is do what our guys did, form a club to organise events, make terrain and set events, that way the store becomes YOURS. Thats what the guys at my place did, and they seem pretty happy

I love my FLGS. It has great people, and awesome, multilevel gaming tables and everything I could need for the hobby.

Sure, I could get the 20% off from the warstore, but I'd rather go in to the FLGS anyday.

Money is made to be spent, and I'd rather spend a little extra, and support my local store.

I like to prioritize my purchases between online and FLGS.

I.E. When I started my Dark Elf army I decided to go and buy a battalion box from the guys at my FLGS. Lucky enough for me the guys there are pretty great and they gave me a 15% discount because they had 2 sitting on the shelf forever. So it came out to 75 dollars plus tax which is more or less what you get it for online! So that was like my 'initiation' purchase that let me show my support for the store.

From now on I will probably buy paint, flock and any command/blisters I may need. And then I'll get the bulk of my RnF and stuff from online so it's not as expensive.

disdainful wrote:
chewbacca doesn't make sense; you must acquit.

I have been dealt a fatal blow...

I must now admit the fallacy of my previous posts. Any and all arguments presented by myself are completely null and void. I was wrong, in totality and absolute. Well played sir!

Now, all I have to say is this;

Support your FLGS. Especially if its "Joe's Gaming Shack" vs "GW <Your town here>"! The only times you should be hitting up Ebay or TWS is if you are on a tight budget or buying a MASS quanitity of figures (like, so much so that you destock your FLGS).

Also, if you are TFG that buys all of the "Kharne the Betrayer"s at your FLGS, and that FLGS happens to be in the Northern Virginia area... I will find you, and I will kill you!

I love my local FLGS - great owner, great venue with lots of tables and scenery, great group of gamers to play with. I try to spend all my gaming money there!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

disdainful wrote:
chewbacca doesn't make sense; you must acquit.

I have been dealt a fatal blow...

I must now admit the fallacy of my previous posts. Any and all arguments presented by myself are completely null and void. I was wrong, in totality and absolute. Well played sir!

Chewbacca defense maintains its perfect record! (infinite wins - zero losses - zero draws)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Now, all I have to say is this;

Support your FLGS. Especially if its "Joe's Gaming Shack" vs "GW <Your town here>"! The only times you should be hitting up Ebay or TWS is if you are on a tight budget or buying a MASS quanitity of figures (like, so much so that you destock your FLGS).

Also, if you are TFG that buys all of the "Kharne the Betrayer"s at your FLGS, and that FLGS happens to be in the Northern Virginia area... I will find you, and I will kill you!

Seconded on all counts, especially the part about waxing the guy that bought all the Kharns, since those things are special-order only these days! The whole 'de-stocking' thing is particularly salient; I get GW restock product once a week. Of course I'm stoked if someone comes in and buys up my whole stock of a given range of minis on Saturday, but the flip side is that I'm going to be out of those models until the following Friday, which means everyone else that might come in for those models during the week is SOL.

-Dis.

My FLGS is great place to play and to hang around talking about the hobby. The tables are excellent (flip tables with loads of variety landscapes,), the terrain is also top notch and owner is a very friendly guy. I try contributing as much as I can, even when I don’t need anything. However, there a few individuals who are always there and they never purchase anything. They pretty much buy used ugly painted miniatures for the cheap online or do a lot of trading in the store. I think the owner is too much of a nice guy to say anything but I’m sure he’s frustrated. Although it’s not my place to intervene, It really annoys me. These yahoos act like this store should cater to them without ever showing support and they have no respect for the hobby whatsoever. Should I say something?

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you go to a strip club, there's a cover charge and a 2 drink minimum. Plus a buck "tip" per girl. Try to skip the cover & with your own drinks and see how the bouncers treat you.

Why should a store be any different?

Pay where you play.

If my FLGS had strippers, I'd probably not be allowed to play there.

malfred wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:If you go to a strip club, there's a cover charge and a 2 drink minimum. Plus a buck "tip" per girl. Try to skip the cover & with your own drinks and see how the bouncers treat you.

Why should a store be any different?

Pay where you play.

If my FLGS had strippers, I'd probably not be allowed to play there.

If my FLGS had strippers I wouldn't be posting on Dakka right now... and Warhammer would officially consume 80%+ of my income (instead of the 40%+ it does already)

Man all of this just makes me want to spend more at my LFGS, I guess I never realized how good I really have it.

The gaming space is sub par but the 20% discount that I was taking for granted.

Fiercegoldfish wrote:Just like to mention that stores are at a natural disadvantage over all the online sellers, and that's that they aren't allowed to sell online. GW has a rule that stores cannot list any gw figures on there sites. This means that LGS cant sell as much as others since they don't have the internet to sell on, thus meaning that often they cannot discount.

Any argument of "well, why don't they just expand with the internet" is therefore moot.

Depends on where you are in the world.

In the US, GW doesn't sell directly to internet only stores. Stores online in the US either have a brick and mortar component, even if it's a token affair, or they don't buy from GW directly, and take at least a 10% hit to the bottom line.

I could sell online from my store, if I wanted to. Currently I don't, as I just don't have the time it would take.

Shopping carts, now those GW US do not like.

unfortunately, the LGS in town (I live outside of Orlando) doesn't have any GW stuff aside from 1 OOP WHFB Ffortress (i'm going to be buying it for a project), 1 Battle for Skull Pass that has been there for about 6-8 years and 1 LotR thing but I don't know how much it is or how old.

so I'm going to be buying pretty much everything from Sci-Fi City and online.

One thing that irks me when I'm at the FLGS is for someone to walk in and announce that he just bought (insert item here) online somewhere at a discount right in front of the store owner then ask who is up for a game while setting up terrain on a table provided at no cost to him. There has been more than one occasion, I've wanted to tell an individual that if he can get such a good deal online then he should go game there. I have no problem with someone ordering a single or hard to find bit in order to finish a conversion but to buy an army from an online retailer then game free is just wrong in my book.

There are two places about the same distance apart I can game at. One is a sterile chain store that does offer me a discount due to my profession. Table space is adequate and terrain is minimal if at all. The other is a smaller shop that now has over half the space he pays rent for dedicated to gaming. There is never a want for table space and there is enough terrain there to cover the 8 tables available with as much as you can want. I can drop by any day of the week with an army and get a game in.

I have been busy paintng stuff over the last months, so my gaming time has pretty much dropped to 0 apart from the blood bowl league I am organizing with friends. We live in different suburbs of the city and all have young children, so the FLGS is not an option (especially considering we have different stores).

Stuff I can get from my FLGS I get there, other things (usually blood bowl minis from small alternative brands) I buy online from the manufacturers.

I notice that the vast majority of posts are US-centric, which indicates to me that the rest of the world (and from my personal perspective, the UK) are less invested in the whole concept of a independent local gaming store with playing space.

It is noticeable that there is a definite divergence in the interests of gamers (have as much fun as possible) and the interests of store owners (make as much profit as possible). This comes from the natural instincts of both parties and is not a surprise.

This divergence if interests causes problems when either side developes an overstrong sense of entitlement ("I am entitled to earn a bigger profit out of these hobbyists because they are using my facilities", "I am entitled to play here and not pay a penny for the privelige)

Where it gets me though, is that always there is going to be that slight issue or feeling that "I am only tolerated as a gamer in this store because I have a wallet". The owner isn't putting out gaming tables just because he's a nice guy, but because he wants to earn a living. Now ha may be nice guy (as mikhaila, for instance, clearly is), but that's a bonus!

Here in the UK, far more common than it seems to be in the US, there are quite a number of private gaming clubs. They meet in church halls, (yes) libraries, hotels, pubs, scout huts, conference facilities, council offices, in fact wherever they can access space and store their terrain. Lots of them. even in the culturally barren North East of England I can name 5 I can access all an easy, short drive from my home.

These are run by enthusiastic committees, who's interests, rather than diverging like the store owner's, actually perfectly align with the members by definition, as they *are* the members. Everyone is in it simply for the fun of the project with the aim of providing as much gaming fun for as little money spent as possible. No one is in it to make a profit out of anyone else. No one is dependent on a benign owner to put on a good tournament, or provide space and materials. And there is no "owner" to feel resentful that these gamers aren't spending enough to justify his time. (Although of course nothing human-run is ever perfect and there are bad clubs and committees I am sure!)

Maybe it says something about the relative cultures of the US and the UK that the commercial model holds so much sway over the pond, but over here the more egalitarian model is more dominant? Maybe US folks have less distrust of the profit motive than we do? Maybe its because GW has less of a stranglehold of stores in the US than in the UK? Maybe both?

Don't get me wrong, I think it is entirely polite and ethical that if you game in a store, you should make some purchases there, but it does strike me that there is an inbuilt element of tension that is inevitable between store-owner and gamer, however nice they both are, simply because of the commercialisation of the set up.

A private club, on the other hand, while potentially demanding more of (some of) the participants (generally those who like the idea of being on a committee!) are totally free from that element. And their members are free to buy whatever stuff they want to from wherever they can get it and play whatever they want provided they can drum up an audience!

There must be *some* clubs in the US mustn't there be? Surely the profit motive hasn't permeated 100%?

(P.S.: personally I game in my own house, with my own friends, the idea of gaming with strangers isn't one that I find attractive, so these comments are purely offered out of a sense of interest, rather than combatativeness!)

Well I can say this

I'm Irish, born and raised and moved to the US 3 years ago, so I've seen both sides of the gaming fence. When I went to college, the only way to game was to make a group and set days, and the only place I ever saw to buy gw stuff was in little hobby stores that had no gaming space, so I can see how it would lead to a rise in clubs.

Since I've come to the US (and opened a game store), I have seen that its alot tougher to organise gaming groups (America is BIG), so having stores dedicated to gaming, where, as Boss Greenutz said, you can come at any time and get a game, is a big big factor. I base my stores attractiveness around that. You can come, at any point, and get a game. W even made our own community forums so people could easier organise games, its what alot of stores do actually
I know you said that owners are only interested in profits, and whilst thats important, its not fully true. If I was only interested in making a profit, you can be damn sure I wouldn't be running a tabletop gaming store! I work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week and hopefully earn enough in a month to keep the lights on, its a tough job and not as financially rewarding as you may think. I do it because its fun and I get enjoyment from seeing people push little figures around the table

Osbad,
That's a very enlightening post for me, as I hadn't really looked at it from that perspective. I know that people do play at their houses in the U.S. but have never heard of anyone playing warhammers at a Library or Church. Now, I have played other games at a Library, but these games were much smaller in scale, in that you didn't need to have a 6x4 table and a whole bunch of terrain and models to lug around.

I would be very interested in the "club" model where you don't have to depend on a gamestore. Now having said that, I have gamed at some incredibly well run, and organized game stores which have a great in store club scene. So well run, in fact, that there was no need to look elsewhere. But I have also been in poorly run gamestores. I think in that case, the UK model you represent would be a good one.

GG

Osbad wrote:I
There must be *some* clubs in the US mustn't there be? Surely the profit motive hasn't permeated 100%?

Here in Chicago there are at least two private clubs that I can think of. Both of these however are a bit different than the model you mention. They are both held in a private home, and are only open one or two evenings a week. The club model would/does work some places in the USA, but in urban areas, space is such a premium, that the cost of securing a non-home space that's available more than once or twice a week is quite expensive.

Osbad wrote:


There must be *some* clubs in the US mustn't there be? Surely the profit motive hasn't permeated 100%?

(P.S.: personally I game in my own house, with my own friends, the idea of gaming with strangers isn't one that I find attractive, so these comments are purely offered out of a sense of interest, rather than combatativeness!)

The club I'm a "committee" member of actually Tries to help out the LFGS, we host a site, I get a small amount of revenue from google ads.

So once a quarter we pick a LFGS and run a free to enter tournament with a couple hundred dollars in gift cards for the hosting store. Is the store getting rich off our couple hundred, no but hopefully some more purchases will be made during the tournament and some return business is built. In return if someone is having a hard time finding a game the store owner will usually point them to our site.

So I guess the Club model and the Capalist model do not have to be exclusive, but if done well can have a type of self sustaining synergy.

i think if anyone is trying to find a perfect Club/FLGS model, they need to check the various Atlanta Clubs. Pog mo Thon, WarFAN, NATO and FRAG all exist quite successfully with their local clubs and the symbiotic relationship is fantastic. The clubs help the store, the store helps bring in new members and people to play, both run loads of events (on average, we have at least 3 tournaments a month in the Atlanta metro area) and theres alot of cross pollination of clubs and stores, which is awesome

Sergeant Horse wrote:Well I can say this
I know you said that owners are only interested in profits, and whilst thats important, its not fully true. If I was only interested in making a profit, you can be damn sure I wouldn't be running a tabletop gaming store! I work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week and hopefully earn enough in a month to keep the lights on, its a tough job and not as financially rewarding as you may think. I do it because its fun and I get enjoyment from seeing people push little figures around the table

Respectfully Osbad, I agree with Sergeant Horse. It is possible to have multiple motivations after all. There was one local store I used to go to that would actually say "If you want to play the Mechwarrior campaign tonight you each have to buy a booster pack", a point for your argument. But the two main gaming stores here that are still going strong, their managers and owners were gamers before they ever opened their stores. One store's manager used to have us all over at his house every week for 40K and Warhammer. Times have changed and he can't do that now, but you know his store rents the mall conference room every Monday night for open gaming, and I know as much as they need to make a profit, they are our friends and fellow gamers too. It won't be like that everywhere, but sometimes 'Fun' and 'Profits' go hand in hand. Still, this is not to say you are wrong, it sounds from this thread that some people do have the 'either/or' situation and your theory does seem to fit these cases.

These clubs you are talking about, they don't have to pay for the room space? If they had to pay rent, it wouldn't be a 'profit' motive, but it would introduce the financial stresses that businesses share.

I shop online because it saves money. In this economy, and with lower income flow heh. It only makes more sense.

When it comes to wargaming everything is just a want. Not a need.

The only time i buy something fron a LGS is when i need something. Paint for a project immediately.

RogueMarket's declaration is one I've heard often. Simply put, if you don't support a local place to buy minis & play, then it is quite likely that LFGS will no longer support the game, and finding new players will be tougher.

The US is a BIG, mostly low-density place. I have to drive 60 minutes to play with more than one or two people. Ensuring that the location where I game stays open and supportive is important to me.

*shrug*

It's not all about money.

Eilif wrote:...The club model would/does work some places in the USA, but in urban areas, space is such a premium, that the cost of securing a non-home space that's available more than once or twice a week is quite expensive.

Whereas in parts of rural America the physical distance involved with getting a community with enough player density makes it unworkable, too. Distance kills the country gamer and expense kills the city gamer

This is a hard thing for me. My FLGS does have gaming tables, but I have yet to play a game on them in the 5+ years I have been going there. They do offer a small discount system, where every $20 you spend, you get a token that is good for $1 off of another sale in the future. Any overage over $20 is lost, so in effect you are not even getting a 5% discount. I used to once in a while go to Goblin Shoppe before they were bought out by a comic book store and then closed down shortly afterward. They offered a nice discount locally, but the drive and getting items ordered or preordered was always a hassle.

If I want to pick something up NOW or a bottle of paint if I am running low on a color, I go to the FLGS, but if I need several bottles and/or am buying several sets of models, I will use thewarstore for my sales, that flat 20% off and cheap shipping always comes in handy. I usually keep a list of items/bits that I want to order and then do one big order when I want it. Back a few Christmases ago, they had a nice discount deal going (was it black friday) where I picked up the Citadel Realm of Battle Gameboard, I still have yet to paint it fully, but I carry it over to my neighbor's house, and we game on that with a variety of terrain. He supplies the beer/soda, we order pizza, and generally have a great all day gaming session.