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Grey Templar wrote:give me 2 PAGK squads with psycannons and that nob squad will be toast in 2 turns. any charcoal left over will get a little NFW love later. You won't get any saves sides FNP. and just try and get ol'Ghaz an invuln and see him eat silver like a grot.

Heh. Not so much.

4 psycannons = 12 shots. Hitting on 3 = 8 hits, wounding on 2 = 6-7 wounds. One goes to Ghazzy and is saved by 2+ armor/FNP, the others are allocated and after FNP you inflict 3 wounds. No deaths. Orks move and run.

Same the next round. 3 wounds, no dead. Orks move and run.

Same the next round. 3 wounds, no dead. Then I Waagh!, the squad leaps forward 18" and hits you like a wrecking ball. Goodbye PAGKs. And oh, yeah. . . you don't ignore Inv. in close combat, so Ghazghkull waltzes through your lines with his 2++ and probably doesn't take a scratch. We'll say he loses 1 wound, for funsies. But basically, the squad wipes you out with few casualties.

Want the math? 20 PAGK = 40 attacks. Say 6 are directed at Ghazghkull. So against Ghazghkull you have 3 hits, wounding on 3 = 2 wounds, both saved by 2++/FNP. Against the Nobz/Grotsnik you have 34 attacks, 17 hits, 14.16 wounds, 4.72 unsaved, round up to 5. Most likely you kill 3 Nobz, accounting for the wounds taken as they closed in. Say one of the dead is a PK.

BC Nobz; 4*4=16 attacks, 8 hits, 6.67 wounds rounded up to 7, 2 dead PAGK. PK nobz+Grotsnik; 17 attacks, 8.5 hits, 7 wounds, 7 dead PAGK. Ghazghkull; 7 attacks, 4.67 hits, 3.88 wounds, 4 dead PAGK. PAGK lose combat by 10. So much for them.

What kind of n00b tries to kill a HtH unit with an overpriced HtH unit?

Don't any of you own any Demolishers or Vindicators?

Just for fun, a merged squad of 50 IG, each squad with a Commissar, all commisars and sgts get power weapons, You have to kill 45 guys to get to the 10 power weapon models that are dishing out 30 (albeit only ST 3) PW attacks per turn. And just fore more fun you could add priests...................

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:give me 2 PAGK squads with psycannons and that nob squad will be toast in 2 turns. any charcoal left over will get a little NFW love later. You won't get any saves sides FNP. and just try and get ol'Ghaz an invuln and see him eat silver like a grot.

Heh. Not so much.

4 psycannons = 12 shots. Hitting on 3 = 8 hits, wounding on 2 = 6-7 wounds. One goes to Ghazzy and is saved by 2+ armor/FNP, the others are allocated and after FNP you inflict 3 wounds. No deaths. Orks move and run.

Same the next round. 3 wounds, no dead. Orks move and run.

Same the next round. 3 wounds, no dead. Then I Waagh!, the squad leaps forward 18" and hits you like a wrecking ball. Goodbye PAGKs. And oh, yeah. . . you don't ignore Inv. in close combat, so Ghazghkull waltzes through your lines with his 2++ and probably doesn't take a scratch. We'll say he loses 1 wound, for funsies. But basically, the squad wipes you out with few casualties.

Want the math? 20 PAGK = 40 attacks. Say 6 are directed at Ghazghkull. So against Ghazghkull you have 3 hits, wounding on 3 = 2 wounds, both saved by 2++/FNP. Against the Nobz/Grotsnik you have 34 attacks, 17 hits, 14.16 wounds, 4.72 unsaved, round up to 5. Most likely you kill 3 Nobz, accounting for the wounds taken as they closed in. Say one of the dead is a PK.

BC Nobz; 4*4=16 attacks, 8 hits, 6.67 wounds rounded up to 7, 2 dead PAGK. PK nobz+Grotsnik; 17 attacks, 8.5 hits, 7 wounds, 7 dead PAGK. Ghazghkull; 7 attacks, 4.67 hits, 3.88 wounds, 4 dead PAGK. PAGK lose combat by 10. So much for them.

You forgot the 32 storm bolter shots and assume i will be standing still. i can run backwards firing to full effect for 2ish turns and then assault you when you start hurting There will be dead orks!

Oh boy, I wondered when this thread would turn into theoryhammer.

"I do this"
"But I do this"
"Yeah, but I do that"
"Well then I..."

Just go play a real game already.

Does this include stuff that can become troops?

Otherwise 10 GH with a PW, MotW, 2 Flamers and a Wolf Standard is my pick.

Creature-the 888 point Khorne Thingy.

Don Mondo-

I'll do you one better. An inducted IG Platoon. 5 Squads, each with a priest with eviscerator attached. Each has a Commisar and 2x PW. Merged together, that's 60 models with 15 PWs, rerolling to-hit the turn they charge.

kartofelkopf wrote:Don Mondo-

I'll do you one better. An inducted IG Platoon. 5 Squads, each with a priest with eviscerator attached. Each has a Commisar and 2x PW. Merged together, that's 60 models with 15 PWs, rerolling to-hit the turn they charge.

Isn't that what I just said.......? "And just for more fun you could add priests..................." Altho I was using IG priests.

Striking Scorpions are beast aganist hordes or fancy vanguard veteran though they are very pricey.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Same the next round. 3 wounds, no dead. Then I Waagh!, the squad leaps forward 18" and hits you like a wrecking ball. Goodbye PAGKs. And oh, yeah. . . you don't ignore Inv. in close combat, so Ghazghkull waltzes through your lines with his 2++ and probably doesn't take a scratch. We'll say he loses 1 wound, for funsies. But basically, the squad wipes you out with few casualties.

A squad with Ghazzy doesn't move 18" in the Assault round.

Ghazzy is in mega armor so they move 2d6 pick the higest every turn in movement; 6" waaaagh run; then assault 2d6 pick the highest.

you *can* get 18" but you can also get 8".

10-large squad of warlocks on bikes led by a fortunseer. One of the few units in the game that can deal with just about everything that exists.

Best character, Swarmlord, end of discussion.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

A squad with Ghazzy doesn't move 18" in the Assault round.

Ghazzy is in mega armor so they move 2d6 pick the higest every turn in movement; 6" waaaagh run; then assault 2d6 pick the highest.

you *can* get 18" but you can also get 8".

3d6 pick the highest actually, since Ghazghkull has Move Through Cover. That gives them an extremely low chance of moving 8", but yes, you're right in general. an 18" move isn't guaranteed. A more accurate estimate might be 16".

Of course, everything discussed so far assumes that the Ork player is an idiot who footslogs an 800+ point unit across the board, but now I enter into the realms of Theoryhammer. Add a deff-rolla battlewagon to that unit and it will annihilate any number of PAGKs you care to name, since PAGKs can't actually hurt a battlewagon's front armor, and I don't have to get out until I'm well within assault range.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

A squad with Ghazzy doesn't move 18" in the Assault round.

Ghazzy is in mega armor so they move 2d6 pick the higest every turn in movement; 6" waaaagh run; then assault 2d6 pick the highest.

you *can* get 18" but you can also get 8".

3d6 pick the highest actually, since Ghazghkull has Move Through Cover. That gives them an extremely low chance of moving 8", but yes, you're right in general. an 18" move isn't guaranteed. A more accurate estimate might be 16".

Of course, everything discussed so far assumes that the Ork player is an idiot who footslogs an 800+ point unit across the board, but now I enter into the realms of Theoryhammer. Add a deff-rolla battlewagon to that unit and it will annihilate any number of PAGKs you care to name, since PAGKs can't actually hurt a battlewagon's front armor, and I don't have to get out until I'm well within assault range.

Except of course, that Ghaz loses Move Through Cover while joined to a unit that doesn't have it............

Aramus wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:I'm probably a bit biased, but I would say DE Wyches.

They might not bring the most raw power to a fight, but if you told me to pick 200 points to bring to an all in close combat brawl between specialist close combat unit, I would probably opt for the Wyches and laugh as I tarpit everyone.

That said, their true strength comes from being able to tarpit melee specialists WHILE the rest of your army goes to town on other units.

No.

Warboss/Nobz w/painboy and power claws got charged by TWO full Wytch squads and Archon/w Incubi. Combat lasted two turns, I lost a single wound on a Nob, and ate all three squads.

So you're telling me 8 Agoniser attacks (Succubi in each Wych unit), 4+ Punisher or Agoniser attacks from the Archon and a bare minimum of 15 more Punishers from the Incubi did a grand total of 1 wound over two turns of combat?

You do realize those are all power weapons, and ignore FNP - correct? Or did the DE player fail to upgrade any of the models with any sort of power weapons?

That's unbelievable, unless the DE player rolled nothing but 1's the whole time. Nevermind the Wyches bouncing claws on a 4+, or the Archon bouncing them on 2+ from a Shadowfield etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

A squad with Ghazzy doesn't move 18" in the Assault round.

Ghazzy is in mega armor so they move 2d6 pick the higest every turn in movement; 6" waaaagh run; then assault 2d6 pick the highest.

you *can* get 18" but you can also get 8".

3d6 pick the highest actually, since Ghazghkull has Move Through Cover. That gives them an extremely low chance of moving 8", but yes, you're right in general. an 18" move isn't guaranteed. A more accurate estimate might be 16".

Of course, everything discussed so far assumes that the Ork player is an idiot who footslogs an 800+ point unit across the board, but now I enter into the realms of Theoryhammer. Add a deff-rolla battlewagon to that unit and it will annihilate any number of PAGKs you care to name, since PAGKs can't actually hurt a battlewagon's front armor, and I don't have to get out until I'm well within assault range.

Except of course, that Ghaz loses Move Through Cover while joined to a unit that doesn't have it............

And except of course, that the Ork unit still goes last, charging or not. Any number of units? Sup troll.

??

If we're bringing in outside units now, why not include some Grey Knight Terminator's? I think 10 of them could easily destroy your proposed 800+ point unit, at a little over half the cost. Nevermind a Grandmaster FW'ing out a Nob every turn in addition to dealing more strength 6 power weapon wounds.

I know it's fun to play "My dad can beat up your dad", and you're quite obviously an Ork homer - but really, get your facts straight.

I'd put my money on the grey knights any day of the week.

don_mondo wrote:Altho I was using IG priests.

The attached WH Priests aren't ICs, so can't be singled out. Only real difference.

don_mondo wrote:

kartofelkopf wrote:Don Mondo-

I'll do you one better. An inducted IG Platoon. 5 Squads, each with a priest with eviscerator attached. Each has a Commisar and 2x PW. Merged together, that's 60 models with 15 PWs, rerolling to-hit the turn they charge.

Isn't that what I just said.......? "And just for more fun you could add priests..................." Altho I was using IG priests.

Witch Hunter priests have the distinction of not being independent characters, so you can't pick them out in close combat. They also have one more wound, better initiative and leadership than their IG counterparts, not that that should matter under these circumstances. They don't come with a free rosarius, but since they ordinarily won't get wounds allocated to them anyway that also probably won't matter. Doing it this way also places the unit in the context of a Witch Hunter army instead of a Guard army, and make of that what you will.

kartofelkopf wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Altho I was using IG priests.

The attached WH Priests aren't ICs, so can't be singled out. Only real difference.

Couple other differences, actually. The IG ones come with a free Rosarius, and of course there are cost differences. So it pretty much comes down to core army. Mine is IG, so for me that's what I would use. But the WH ones would be better in melee in that they cannot be picked out and do not have to be btb to fight. May have to look at doing this with the SoB army I'm building.................

Defiler wrote:

And except of course, that the Ork unit still goes last, charging or not. Any number of units? Sup troll.

??

If we're bringing in outside units now, why not include some Grey Knight Terminator's? I think 10 of them could easily destroy your proposed 800+ point unit, at a little over half the cost. Nevermind a Grandmaster FW'ing out a Nob every turn in addition to dealing more strength 6 power weapon wounds.

I know it's fun to play "My dad can beat up your dad", and you're quite obviously an Ork homer - but really, get your facts straight.

I'd put my money on the grey knights any day of the week.

Really? Let's run some math.

First, assume the Orks Waagh! and charge. The Termies go simultaneously with the BC Nobz with NFWs. 21 attacks hitting on 4+ = 10.5 hits, wounding on 2+ = 8.75 wounds, 5+ Inv save = 5.83 unsaved, rounded up to 6. Nobody dies due to wound allocation.

Big Choppas get 24 attacks hitting on 4+ = 12 hits, wounding on 2+ = 10 wounds, saved on 2+ = 1.77 wounds, rounded up to 2. 2 Termies die.

Ghazghkull gets 7 PK attacks, hitting on 3+ = 4.66 hits, wounding on 2+ = 3.88 wounds, saved on a 5+ = 2.59 wounds, rounded up to 3. 3 Termies die.

Grotsnik gets 5 PK attacks, hitting on 3+ = 3.33 hits, wounding on 2+ = 2.77 wounds, saved on a 5+ = 1.85 wounds, rounded up to 2. 2 Termies die.

The other PK Nobs get 16 PK attacks, hitting on 4+ = 8 hits, wounding on 2+ = 6.67 wounds, saved on 5+ = 4.44 wounds, rounded down to 4. The remaining 3 Termies die.

So the proposed unit massacres 10 NFW GKTs when it charges, taking an average of 6 wounds and no casualties.


Now, assume the GKTs charge instead. Ghazghkull declares his Waagh!, so he gets his 2+ Invulnerable. Let's further assume that the Brother-Captain and 3 Termies focus solely on Ghazghkull.

So the Brother-Captain and 3 Termies against Ghazghkull; 13 attacks, hitting on 4+ = 6.5 hits, wounding on 3+ = 4.33 wounds, saved on 2+ = 0.72 wounds, rounded up to 1. Ghazghkull is angry, but substantially unharmed.

The other 6 Termies go against the Nobz; 18 attacks hitting on 4+ = 9 hits, wounding on 2+ = 7.5 wounds, saved on 5+ = 5 wounds, nobody dies.

The BC Nobz get 18 attacks, hitting on 4+ = 9 hits, wounding on 2+ = 7.5 wounds, saved on a 2+ = 1.25 wounds, rounded down to 1. 1 Termie dies.

Ghazghkull gets 5 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 3.33 hits, wounding on a 2+ = 2.77 wounds, saved on a 5+ = 1.85 wounds, rounded up to 2. 2 Termies die.

Grotsnik gets 4 attacks, hitting on 3+ = 2.66 hits, wounding on 2+ = 2.22 wounds, saved on 5+ = 1.48 wounds, rounded down to 1. 1 Termie dies.

4 PK Nobz get 12 attacks, hitting on 4+ = 6 hits, wounding on 2+ = 5 wounds, saved on 5+ = 3.33 wounds, rounded down to 3. 3 Termies die, one survives and takes 3 No Retreat! saves, almost certainly dying. If he survives, he inflicts no wounds in the next round of combat and is killed at I3 by the Big Choppa Nobz.

Had the Brother-Captain and those three other Termies all targeted the Nobz instead of Ghazghkull, the Nobz would have suffered an additional 3 wounds, and no casualties. This would result in the last surviving GKT taking no No Retreat! saves, and kept the unit locked in combat for the Gray Knight player's turn, a result which is even better for the Orks.

So the proposed unit massacres 10 NFW GKTs even when they charge, still suffering no casualties.

The verdict; in truth, 10 diversified Nobz, Ghazghkull, and Grotsnik massacre 10 GKTs with no casualties whatsoever, whether they charge or receive the charge.

Now, if those GKTs were all armed with TH/SS, the numbers would be somewhat different. In that case, the Orks take casualties but still win combat, due to outdated Daemonhunters Storm Shield rules.

The only circumstance in which a unit of GKTs can reliably win combat against this unit is if they are all armed with TH/SS AND using the Storm Shield rules from the 5th Ed. Space Marine Codex.

As to "any number", yes, I exaggerate. But look at the numbers above. Gray Knight Terminators are in every way superior to PAGKs, and they still die in droves to 10 diversified Nobz, Ghazghkull, and Grotsnik. Against PAGKs those Nobz would get FNP in addition to their Invulnerable saves, halving the wounds they take, and they would inflict slightly more damage since more Big Choppa wounds would get through. Gray Knights cannot stand against this unit in combat; that's not opinion, that's a fact. In fact, very, very little can stand against this unit in combat. Are there units that can? Sure! 10 vanilla TH/SS Termies comes to mind, I believe they could do it, although it'd be close. A Swarmlord with a pile of smaller bugs could, too.

OK, when we're doing these unit matchups, are we points-capped, or just picking stuff out of the blue?

If we're picking stuff out, then, against the GKs, I'd put them up against a bog-standard AV13 Ironclad, completely negating their S6 NFWs, and locking them in for the duration.

Hands down... The best close combat troops in the game are...

The Kroot.... Ha!!!
Pay the points for 500 of those naked birds and send cross the board to die!!!

That just happened...

Just makes Colonel Sanders cry.

First question: Genestealers. 120 and six broodlords.
Second Question: SWARMLORD!

Klawz wrote:First question: Genestealers. 120 and six broodlords.
Second Question: SWARMLORD!

Well, if we're going multiple units........... That's 300 IG with 30 Commissars, a priest in each mobbed 50 man squad. It would be awesome bloody!!

Defiler wrote:

Aramus wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:I'm probably a bit biased, but I would say DE Wyches.

They might not bring the most raw power to a fight, but if you told me to pick 200 points to bring to an all in close combat brawl between specialist close combat unit, I would probably opt for the Wyches and laugh as I tarpit everyone.

That said, their true strength comes from being able to tarpit melee specialists WHILE the rest of your army goes to town on other units.

No.

Warboss/Nobz w/painboy and power claws got charged by TWO full Wytch squads and Archon/w Incubi. Combat lasted two turns, I lost a single wound on a Nob, and ate all three squads.

So you're telling me 8 Agoniser attacks (Succubi in each Wych unit), 4+ Punisher or Agoniser attacks from the Archon and a bare minimum of 15 more Punishers from the Incubi did a grand total of 1 wound over two turns of combat?

You do realize those are all power weapons, and ignore FNP - correct? Or did the DE player fail to upgrade any of the models with any sort of power weapons?

That's unbelievable, unless the DE player rolled nothing but 1's the whole time. Nevermind the Wyches bouncing claws on a 4+, or the Archon bouncing them on 2+ from a Shadowfield etc.

Correct, but it doesn't ignore my 5+ invul saves...which, to be honest I made a LOT of. The Incubi were gone first turn, as those were the highest priority, next round the Archon rolled a 1 and died, and the next two rounds of combat the witches were wiped out. I have to say there was a lot of good rolling on my part, and bad on his, haha.

I think someone here has a grudge against Grey Knights, You know who you are

Leigons of gretchin!

Trust me over 300 gretchin in a 2000 point game is just fustrating, my space marines coouldent kill enough of them!

Ugh that sounds hideous, dont have the ork codex, how can he get that many and still be within FOC?

I still stand that a unit of 10 Wolf Guard in power armor with Frostblades and attatched Ragnar and Ulrik with logan nearby shouting for extra attacks would kill those diversified nobs with no problems.

50-70 S6 I5 power weapon attacks on the charge, rerolling misses, rerolling wounds

Everything on the nobs

Assume averages
Ragnar swings 7 attacks, hits on 3's with rerolls, 6 hits, wounds on 3's with rerolls, 5 wounds, 5++ saves with allocation nonsense means 3 nobs wounded
Ulrik swings with 5 attacks hits on 3's with rerolls, 4 hits,
wounds on 4's with rerolls, 3 wounds, 5++ saves means 2 more nobs wounded
5/10 nobs wounded before the Wolf Guard swings
60 attacks, hits on 4's with rerolls, 45 hits, wounds on 3's with rerolls, 40 wounds, each nob takes 4, with just 5++ saves they should all die.

Gazzy swings back, crushes a few guys, if he was in B2B with Ragnar or Ulrik he can hit them and maybe instakill them, either way, gazzy is going to be taking a fistfull of overrun wounds, hope for good luck on those 2+ saves, next round the remaining Space Wolves finish off gazzy before he can swing.


Oh, and this unit fits inside a Land Raider dedicated transport, so good luck avoiding the charge.

DEATH89 wrote:Ugh that sounds hideous, dont have the ork codex, how can he get that many and still be within FOC?

We were playing to see how fun it would be to play with that many gretchin, hence no FOC.

Phew, you had me worried there for a sec, now i know who to talk to to test out my sternguard army