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Che-Vito wrote:

Read my sig. I'm a Tau and IG player for the most part. Instead of insulting me, make a point, and contribute to the thread.

Contrary to your opinion I have contributed:

Maybe Str4 was a little unneeded but the WS4 and BS4 should stay.

And:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Or it could be like this:

Hellgun:

Minimal: R24" Str 4 Ap - Assault 2
Maximal: R18" Str 4 Ap 3 Assault 1

There you go. Problems solved.

I truly think that Stormtroopers should get WS4. They're pretty much the star troopers of the Imperial army and I think that they deserve it. I also suggested the minimal and maximal firing types for hellguns which I think are pretty darn good.

I believe, that only a few upgrades need be made.

Hellgun: 24" Range, S3, AP3, Assault 2.

15 Points Each, 3 Special Weapons Allowed and Melta Bombs available.

That would do it i think.

The only issue I have with the Hellgun becoming Assault 2, is that in order to use it to its full potential, Stormtroopers need to be effective in assault, which at the moment, they aren't.

Zoring wrote:I believe, that only a few upgrades need be made.

Hellgun: 24" Range, S3, AP3, Assault 2.

15 Points Each, 3 Special Weapons Allowed and Melta Bombs available.

That would do it i think.

So you want these guys to be less effective then SOB's and cost 4 pts more? Sorry, but no.

**EDIT**
Here are my latest changes:
WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 Sv:4+

Deep Strike-
Spec Ops-
May take a dedicated transport: Valk

Hot Shot Lasgun-
Range:24'' Str:4 Ap:3 Assault 2
For every five stormtroopers in the squad, you may include 0-2 special weapons. So a squad of 10 may have up to 4 special weapons added.

Cost: 11 pts each

With this, they dont completly suck and cost roughly 3x that of a basic guardsman. Gave them I:4 and A:2 and feel that at Str:3 T:3 thats more then fair. I feel that adding power fists on these guys at Str:3 would be nothing more then a waste unless the base Str was 4.

Likin' it JP.

Still think that giving them auxiliary grenade launchers for the hotshot lasguns would make them a bit more interesting than the standard Grenadier Vet choice that ends up being the poor man's Stormtrooper stand-in.

WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 Sv:4+

Deep Strike-
Spec Ops-
May take a dedicated transport: Valk

Hot Shot Lasgun-
Range:24'' Str:4 Ap:3 Assault 2
For every five stormtroopers in the squad, you may include 0-2 special weapons. So a squad of 10 may have up to 4 special weapons added.

Cost: 11 pts each

With this, they dont completly suck and cost roughly 3x that of a basic guardsman. Gave them I:4 and A:2 and feel that at Str:3 T:3 thats more then fair. I feel that adding power fists on these guys at Str:3 would be nothing more then a waste unless the base Str was 4.

Ok. Explain this to me. How can they have what is basically a storm bolter with AP 3, equal WS, BS, I, and LD, with better attacks in CC, have these nifty special rules, and be 5 points less than a Tac Marine?

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing it.

The only things in this thread that I actually agree with is the valk as a dedicated transport and making the Hellgun 24" str 3 ap 3 assault 2.

Edited due to crappy quoting on my part.

Seems to work for me JP; the extra attack at greater WS gives them a slight edge to normal Guardsmen, and compliments the Assault 2 of the Hotshot lasgun.
However, for those capabilities I'd keep the 16points cost per model.

@Kanluwen: Were they an upgrade for Elysians or standard equipment? For a slight points cost I could see it being viable.

They were an armory upgrade for around 3pts with a decent range but the caveat is they were a one-shot weapon that was only loaded with Krak Grenades.

That could work. IMO JP has 'fixed' Stormies, (albeit I'd keep them at 16points each) but I'd definitely add the grenade launcher armoury upgrade at the price and capabilities you've stated.

making them cheaper isn't going to happen. I'm convinced there is the unofficial GW rule that says any model that can ignore power armor with its basic equipment must cost at least as much a normal space marine.

That being said I think that storm troopers are annoying at their current point cost. No one has mentioned the following idea yet, and it also goes great with fluff.

Best of the best: Storm troopers are trained to operate independantly from the chain of command and often times know what is better to do in a pinch then their COs, therefore they may not recieve orders from officers. Instead, storm troopers may issue themselves one of the following orders each turn. If a 2 is rolled for the ld check it is ignored.

FRFSRF (Yes I know it doesn't normally work but it will for them in this case)
Bring it down
Into the breach!: The unit may assault after shooting with rapid fire weapons.

What do you all think?

I would change "Into the Breach!" to be:

The Stormtrooper unit's Hotshot Lasguns count as Assault rather than Rapid Fire weapons for the duration of the order.

fair enough. I just tought changing a rule may be better than changing the gun itself and is a little more food for thought.

TheDiffidentOne wrote:

WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 Sv:4+

Deep Strike-
Spec Ops-
May take a dedicated transport: Valk

Hot Shot Lasgun-
Range:24'' Str:4 Ap:3 Assault 2
For every five stormtroopers in the squad, you may include 0-2 special weapons. So a squad of 10 may have up to 4 special weapons added.

Cost: 11 pts each

With this, they dont completly suck and cost roughly 3x that of a basic guardsman. Gave them I:4 and A:2 and feel that at Str:3 T:3 thats more then fair. I feel that adding power fists on these guys at Str:3 would be nothing more then a waste unless the base Str was 4.

Ok. Explain this to me. How can they have what is basically a storm bolter with AP 3, equal WS, BS, I, and LD, with better attacks in CC, have these nifty special rules, and be 5 points less than a Tac Marine?

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing it....

The way I see it...

Stormtroopers are an ELITE choice, Not a TROOP choice.. So why not make them reflect that?
CC attacks are NOT better then a space marines... and if you think this you need to look at your codex again..
Plus why should my codex points be based off what you have to pay for yours? At 11 pts thats already 3x the cost of a basic Guardsmen. Thats more then fair!

jp400 wrote:

TheDiffidentOne wrote:

WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 Sv:4+

Deep Strike-
Spec Ops-
May take a dedicated transport: Valk

Hot Shot Lasgun-
Range:24'' Str:4 Ap:3 Assault 2
For every five stormtroopers in the squad, you may include 0-2 special weapons. So a squad of 10 may have up to 4 special weapons added.

Cost: 11 pts each

With this, they dont completly suck and cost roughly 3x that of a basic guardsman. Gave them I:4 and A:2 and feel that at Str:3 T:3 thats more then fair. I feel that adding power fists on these guys at Str:3 would be nothing more then a waste unless the base Str was 4.

Ok. Explain this to me. How can they have what is basically a storm bolter with AP 3, equal WS, BS, I, and LD, with better attacks in CC, have these nifty special rules, and be 5 points less than a Tac Marine?

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing it....

The way I see it...

Stormtroopers are an ELITE choice, Not a TROOP choice.. So why not make them reflect that?
CC attacks are NOT better then a space marines... and if you think this you need to look at your codex again..
Plus why should my codex points be based off what you have to pay for yours? At 11 pts thats already 3x the cost of a basic Guardsmen. Thats more then fair!

Versus a Fire Warrior (which is 10 points.)
Yours has: +1 WS, +1 BS +2I +1A

Your weapon is S4 AP3 Assault 2 24" (meaning a 30" range if you move and then fire)
Fire Warriors get: S5 AP5 Rapid Fire 1

Enough said. Your "improvements are worth much more than 1 point per model. The only thing the Fire Warriors have (without upgrades) over your mdoels is the fact that FW are Troops.

11 points isn't 3x the points of a normal guardsmen. It's only slightly more than 2x the points.

Also JP, I don't think your point costs takes into account the deep strike rule, which all stormtroopers start with.

Che-Vito wrote:

jp400 wrote:

TheDiffidentOne wrote:

WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 Sv:4+

Deep Strike-
Spec Ops-
May take a dedicated transport: Valk

Hot Shot Lasgun-
Range:24'' Str:4 Ap:3 Assault 2
For every five stormtroopers in the squad, you may include 0-2 special weapons. So a squad of 10 may have up to 4 special weapons added.

Cost: 11 pts each

With this, they dont completly suck and cost roughly 3x that of a basic guardsman. Gave them I:4 and A:2 and feel that at Str:3 T:3 thats more then fair. I feel that adding power fists on these guys at Str:3 would be nothing more then a waste unless the base Str was 4.

Ok. Explain this to me. How can they have what is basically a storm bolter with AP 3, equal WS, BS, I, and LD, with better attacks in CC, have these nifty special rules, and be 5 points less than a Tac Marine?

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing it....

The way I see it...

Stormtroopers are an ELITE choice, Not a TROOP choice.. So why not make them reflect that?
CC attacks are NOT better then a space marines... and if you think this you need to look at your codex again..
Plus why should my codex points be based off what you have to pay for yours? At 11 pts thats already 3x the cost of a basic Guardsmen. Thats more then fair!

Versus a Fire Warrior (which is 10 points.)
Yours has: +1 WS, +1 BS +2I +1A

Your weapon is S4 AP3 Assault 2 24" (meaning a 30" range if you move and then fire)
Fire Warriors get: S5 AP5 Rapid Fire 1

Enough said. Your "improvements are worth much more than 1 point per model. The only thing the Fire Warriors have (without upgrades) over your mdoels is the fact that FW are Troops.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that Fire Warriors are overpriced.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

jp400 wrote:

TheDiffidentOne wrote:

WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 Sv:4+

Deep Strike-
Spec Ops-
May take a dedicated transport: Valk

Hot Shot Lasgun-
Range:24'' Str:4 Ap:3 Assault 2
For every five stormtroopers in the squad, you may include 0-2 special weapons. So a squad of 10 may have up to 4 special weapons added.

Cost: 11 pts each

With this, they dont completly suck and cost roughly 3x that of a basic guardsman. Gave them I:4 and A:2 and feel that at Str:3 T:3 thats more then fair. I feel that adding power fists on these guys at Str:3 would be nothing more then a waste unless the base Str was 4.

Ok. Explain this to me. How can they have what is basically a storm bolter with AP 3, equal WS, BS, I, and LD, with better attacks in CC, have these nifty special rules, and be 5 points less than a Tac Marine?

I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing it....

The way I see it...

Stormtroopers are an ELITE choice, Not a TROOP choice.. So why not make them reflect that?
CC attacks are NOT better then a space marines... and if you think this you need to look at your codex again..
Plus why should my codex points be based off what you have to pay for yours? At 11 pts thats already 3x the cost of a basic Guardsmen. Thats more then fair!

Versus a Fire Warrior (which is 10 points.)
Yours has: +1 WS, +1 BS +2I +1A

Your weapon is S4 AP3 Assault 2 24" (meaning a 30" range if you move and then fire)
Fire Warriors get: S5 AP5 Rapid Fire 1

Enough said. Your "improvements are worth much more than 1 point per model. The only thing the Fire Warriors have (without upgrades) over your mdoels is the fact that FW are Troops.

You seem to be overlooking the fact that Fire Warriors are overpriced.

QFT.

IMO Current FW should be around 6pts each with there current options. And once again, people are trying to compare a Troop choice to an Elite Choice... Any Elite choice should be hands down better then a Troop choice.... cause oh I dont know.... they are Elite maybe?...

Here is my updated version:

WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:2 LD:8 Sv:4+

Deep Strike-
Spec Ops-
May take a dedicated transport: Valk

Hot Shot Lasgun-
Range:24'' Str:4 Ap:3 Assault 2

M203: Any model armed with a HSLG may take a grenade launcher attachment (M203) for +3pts per model. If taken treat the M203 and HSLG as a combi weapon. The M203 fires like a normal IG codex GL, however when fired every M203 that fires that shooting phase must fire the same type of round.

For every five stormtroopers in the squad, you may include 0-2 special weapons. So a squad of 10 may have up to 4 special weapons added.

Cost: 13pts each
**EDIT**
This way if you take the M203, your paying as much for these guys as a marine.

But why should elite guardsmen get 2 attacks and not veteran or chosen space marines.

I say keep the stat line the same except +1 to initiative as they are better trained than normal guardsmen.
And for the hot shot lasgun, increase the range, or make it an assualt weapon and higher strength and give it "gets hot" rule.

Thinking about it, maybe a special version of gets hot where the guy who overheats just doesn't do anything as he's just burned his hands.

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:But why should elite guardsmen get 2 attacks and not veteran or chosen space marines..

Cause vets are troops, and chosen suck as is. Really people, if your going to reply with something, you really need to stop trying to compare troop choices to Elites, and if your going to use elites come up with something that isnt universally known to be crap/overcost.

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:Thinking about it, maybe a special version of gets hot where the guy who overheats just doesn't do anything as he's just burned his hands.

Yeah? Thats already in the game. Its called I rolled badly on the "To Hit" dice and missed.

**Edit**
Really people, are you that scared of an extra Str:3 attack vs your T:4 MEQ army? Pretty much the only counter arguments im hearing boil down to people not wanting anything that can really stand up to their MEQ's without costing as much as a land raider.

I've been going over this in my head for a while, and I think Stormtroopers should, yes, be as effective (in certain roles) without making them too similar to Marines (as a lot of suggestions seem to want to do). Here's my 2 cents.

Statline, Special Operations, and points cost are the same except:

The squad gains stubborn.
ANY number of models may take special weapons (same cost as present).
Every model in the squad gains a vox-caster at no cost.
FRFSRF! works for Hot-shot lasguns.
Any Stormtrooper may replace his HS lasgun for a Boltgun at no cost.

Paladin Blake wrote:I've been going over this in my head for a while, and I think Stormtroopers should, yes, be as effective (in certain roles) without making them too similar to Marines (as a lot of suggestions seem to want to do). Here's my 2 cents.

Statline, Special Operations, and points cost are the same except:

1) The squad gains stubborn.
2) ANY number of models may take special weapons (same cost as present).
3) Every model in the squad gains a vox-caster at no cost.
4) FRFSRF! works for Hot-shot lasguns.
5) Any Stormtrooper may replace his HS lasgun for a Boltgun at no cost.

Lordy Lordy, plasma storm anyone?

1) Stubborn yes. Keep this.
2) ANY number of models take spec weaps, awesome idea. Way too overpowered. Think about what you just said, 10 of any special weapon would eat anything and everything for breakfast. Spec weapons = Half the number of models in unit, that is the highest you could go. That's even too high I think.
3) No point in every model having a vox, you only need one. UNLESS it allows an added benefit or some such, like having the unit being able to break from a full unit into evenly sized separate units independent of each other. And then back again.
4) I agree.
5) Not sure if I can agree with this, feels like underwhelming SM scouts to me. Not a SM player, but I like my underdog humans to stay underdogs.

IMO
storm troopers should cost less maybe 12 points with option to get 4 special weapons and take Valkyries and Vendettas as Dedicated transports.
and hell guns should be Range 24 Strength 4 AP3 rapid fire to represent being a better las gun.

This would make them better then Veterans and not cost to much without an increase to stats.

jp400 wrote:

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:But why should elite guardsmen get 2 attacks and not veteran or chosen space marines..

Cause vets are troops, and chosen suck as is. Really people, if your going to reply with something, you really need to stop trying to compare troop choices to Elites, and if your going to use elites come up with something that isnt universally known to be crap/overcost.

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:Thinking about it, maybe a special version of gets hot where the guy who overheats just doesn't do anything as he's just burned his hands.

Yeah? Thats already in the game. Its called I rolled badly on the "To Hit" dice and missed.

**Edit**
Really people, are you that scared of an extra Str:3 attack vs your T:4 MEQ army? Pretty much the only counter arguments im hearing boil down to people not wanting anything that can really stand up to their MEQ's without costing as much as a land raider.

What you are saying: "People are disagreeing with me, I don't see their logic, I am right and they are wrong! Their arguments suck!!"

You clearly have your opinions, if you like them as they are, then make your own rules and use them at your FLGS. It's not like what we say here is actually going to become the new Stormie rules...

You forget that this is a PROPOSED RULES forum.

All im asking is for people to stop trying to use the argument that my ELITE choice shouldnt be better then their TROOP choice. Simple yes?

Elite > Troop

Stormtroops are not MEQ. Stormtroopers, no matter their training, won't ever be as good as Astartes no matter how long they fight. Astartes spend decades fighting and training(the 'bootcamp', scout training, scout biker training, then onto assault squad training, and further to tactical squad training and joining) before being able to join a tactical squad. After all that. space marines live for hundreds, even thousands of years.

Not only that, but the implants, armour, and superior and unique weaponry are what give Space marines their huge superiority over regular men. You can argue Stormtroopers aren't regular men, that theyre better trained etc. etc. but they lack the dozen or so implants of SM, the power armour, the better training, and the more experience.

If you want your stormtroopers to hunt SM for some odd reason, that's just fine. Load them with meltas and don't try to bash them in the head with your gak guns. Otherwise use the other models and weapons provide.(e.g. spec wep squads, hvy wep tms/squads, battle cannons, etc. etc.)

I wouldn't mind seeing a BS skill increase and a weapons upgrade, but these don't seem the 'Close Combat' type. Range increase should be facilitated, possibly 24" S4 AP3 Assault 2. Sv: 4+, BS 4, +1 to Ld. Stubborn makes sense, I agree.

This may be a little strange, but it mentions in the fluff that they can 'wade through gunfire'. Maybe a -1 modifier to their Cover Save (a 5+ becomes a 4+, etc.)?

Well I saw someone argue the changes as "balancing issues". basically saying storm troopers should be MEQs so it is balanced. Well I think this would be balanced for my necrons:

I dont like it when my necron warriors can be shot up before they are at the enemy. In light of this I demand they have 12 inch moves, str 7 weapons, and the roll of a 6 is a penetrating shot not glancing. Also I demand they have assault 3 weapons. I demand all of this even though the other units of my army are made to move quickly across the field and deal with this(destroyers, hvy destroyers, scarab swarms, DSing flayed ones)

See what i'm getting at here? Your stormtroopers are not MEQ or as effective against certain enemies as you'd like. So you want them changed to be so. Even though you have plenty of units as an IG army to deal with this. having trouble with their range? tanks, valks, vends, sentinels, chimeras, hell hounds, are ll options to tie up units while you move your troops that last 6 ''

I personally play necrons, IG, and SM(in order of most frequently played) and feel Storm troopers need no fixing.

Just my .02c but Just claim Stormtroopers as Inquisition Allies. Each Stromtrooper only costs 10 pts and count as a troop choice.

Yes all the fluff says Space Marines are superior in every way, but this is to keep the same general idea of the fluff but make Stormies a competitive unit.

HSLG 24" S3 AP3 Assault 2.
S3 because its still a lasgun but more penetrating punch, Also doesn't make them to OP. Its still a 5+ to wound on MEQs so don't cry. +1 to LD because they are elite and are supposed to work behind enemy lines away from higher command.

jp400 wrote:
For every five stormtroopers in the squad, you may include 0-2 special weapons. So a squad of 10 may have up to 4 special weapons added.

Because they are specialized elite units so they would have access to a large amount of specialized weapons.
Just my .02c

Okay, my thoughts on the matter:

Kasrkins are the grenadiers (veterans with carapace armor) of the Cadian army, they're not storm troopers.

Stormtroopers shouldn't have I4. That's space marine and eldar level; no officer or commissar gets it, and stormtroopers shouldn't either.

Stormtroopers shouldn't have A2. Space marines don't, chaos marines don't, stormtroopers have no right to. However, I think that some of you are forgetting that all stormtroopers already come with close combat weapons and hot-shot laspistols base (along with a 4+ save this actually means they are decent in close combat; there are plenty of IG players who've ignored my stormtroopers in ignorance of this, and regretted it).

Stormtroopers shouldn't have S4 or T4, as they are human.

Stormtroopers are BS4 already. For some reason people keep suggesting this.

Stormtroopers should probably be Ld8 base (they are Ld7 now; the sergeant is Ld8).

Stormtroopers could be WS4. I'm hesitant on this one; on the one hand they aren't going to be trained for actual melee combat to the level of space marines or something like that, but on the other they are trained specifically for close quarters fighting (capturing buildings and such).

There's no reason why Elites must be more powerful than basic troops, much less universally more powerful than space marines. Kommandos, tankbustas, and lootas are no different from regular boys, statwise, it's their options and ability to infiltrate that makes them different. None of them are more powerful than space marines. Tau pathfinders aren't as powerful as space marines. Celestians aren't as powerful as space marines. Lots of elites aren't. Stormtroopers are already have a 4+ save, better weapons, better ballistic skill, different special rules, krak grenades, and different squad options. This is more than enough to make them "elite", it puts them further away from their army's basic infantry than most elite versions of that infantry are. If you really want to have an elite choice in which each individual is better than a space marine get ogryns. Or Marbo. Or grey knights terminators. Or play an army that has more individually powerful models in general.

2 special weapons per 5 models is plenty, it's already 33% more than what veterans get. Allowing them to take additional weapons in squads numbering 10 models could make sense.

Stormtroopers are never going to compare to space marines fluff wise. They're humans, part of a human army, and there is every reason for them to be under the constraints of this constraint.

The idea of the sergeant giving the squad orders is an interesting one. The best to have would probably be Fire on my Target, Move Move Move, and Bring it Down. This could theoretically replace the special missions, to avoid too many special rules (I do quite like Aerial Insertion, though...).

I would like to see a change in how the hot-shot lasgun/hellgun is stat'd. It's currently a sort of half-assed marine killer, and it's utterly awful at what stormtroopers should be best at; close range attacks against enemies in cover. Something like Range 18" S4 AP- Assault 2 might be interesting. Or Range 12" S4 AP- Assault 3. I don't much like the idea of them having 24" range, I think it puts them too far back.

The underslung grenade launcher idea is a neat one, and it fits with their method of assault.

IggyEssEmManlyMan wrote:A small novel

Pure Hyperbole.



Also please quote anywhere in here where someone said "Stormtroopers are MEQS and should be treated as such".

**Edit**
On second thought, you are not worth the time to argue with for I have better things to do then listen to your inflated Hyperbole. Consider yourself ignored and have a nice day.

Moveing on....