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Kanluwen wrote:I really don't get why people seem to have this sympathy for the two. What did these kids expect to happen when they hit a toddler with a rock? Candy to fall out? And the supposed connection to one of the Chucky movies was adorable. "They splattered the body with blue paint, just like in the movie!"...what a bunch of tools the shrinks that examined these two kids are.

Most ten year olds dont think of the consequences when doing things, most people learn that lesson later. It was their upbringing which failed to teach them it was wrong.

Or are you claiming people are born evil?

whatwhat wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I really don't get why people seem to have this sympathy for the two. What did these kids expect to happen when they hit a toddler with a rock? Candy to fall out? And the supposed connection to one of the Chucky movies was adorable. "They splattered the body with blue paint, just like in the movie!"...what a bunch of tools the shrinks that examined these two kids are.

Most ten year olds don't think of the consequences when doing things, most people learn that lesson later. It was their upbringing which failed to teach them it was wrong.

Or are you claiming people are born evil?

There's a difference between "Well, I didn't know that he really wouldn't go to sleep if I stood on his neck!" and "Hey, I bet if we hit this small child with a rock long enough he'll go to sleep!".

The nature of this crime, either way, and the fact that they tried to cover it up by dumping the body on the train tracks so a train would dismember the body is what tells me the kids knew right from wrong.

Of course they knew it would kill him. Im saying they didn't think of the consequences of killing him.

Kanluwen wrote:[

I really don't get why people seem to have this sympathy for the two.

Which people would they be?

whatwhat wrote:Of course they knew it would kill him. Im saying they didn't think of the consequences of killing him.

What other bloody consequences could there be? I'm sure they'd been punished for something beforehand. What possibility makes killing another human being remotely acceptable?


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Jazz is for Losers wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

I really don't get why people seem to have this sympathy for the two.

Which people would they be?

Saying this as a generalization. The fact that there was postings in regards to the fact that one of the two is back in prison for fights started at his workplace that were amounting to "He's already paid his due for a stupid mistake as a child" is sickening.

So you think they knew they would get imprissoned for ten years and become public enemy number one for the rest of thewir lives? I don't.

They were dragged up, their parents don't get enough of the blame. If you can place the responsibility which you are on a ten year old why don't we let them drive/vote etc. etc. ?

Absolutely horriffic, I remember hearing about this a few years ago, but I didn't know the details.

I dont know how you can feel no remorse after beating a two year old child to death...

whatwhat wrote:So you think they knew they would get imprissoned for ten years and become public enemy number one for the rest of thewir lives? I don't.

I sure can.

Right so you believe these were calm and collected ten year olds who knew that would happen to them, and then werer still prepared to commit what would still be considered a horrific murder had it been done by someone twenty years older. You put that on a ten year old? Do you treat your kids with the same level of responsibility when they do something wrong?

whatwhat wrote:Right so you believe these were calm and collected ten year olds who knew that would happen to them, and then werer still prepared to commit what would still be considered a horrific murder had it been done by someone twenty years older. You put that on a ten year old? Do you treat your kids with the same level of responsibility when they do something wrong?

I think the whole line of thought is irrelevant. They tortured a baby to death. They are mentally deranged at best, Satan's spawn at worst. Under no case should they be let out into society ever again. They will never be anything by a cancer in society. You put rabid dogs down. Works in this circumstance.

whatwhat wrote:So you think they knew they would get imprisoned for ten years and become public enemy number one for the rest of thewir lives? I don't.

They were dragged up, their parents don't get enough of the blame. If you can place the responsibility which you are on a ten year old why don't we let them drive/vote etc. etc. ?

Yes, the parents can be blamed for quite a bit of incompetence. But since we're looking for others to blame, what about the schools and the community the children lived in?

Parents aren't the only persons that directly influence your behavior.

@kanluwen, yes. All of those deserve blame. More blame than I believe you can put on a ten year old.

Frazzled wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Right so you believe these were calm and collected ten year olds who knew that would happen to them, and then werer still prepared to commit what would still be considered a horrific murder had it been done by someone twenty years older. You put that on a ten year old? Do you treat your kids with the same level of responsibility when they do something wrong?

I think the whole line of thought is irrelevant. They tortured a baby to death. They are mentally deranged at best, Satan's spawn at worst. Under no case should they be let out into society ever again. They will never be anything by a cancer in society. You put rabid dogs down. Works in this circumstance.

That comes down to whtehter or not you believe the damage that was done in their quite obviously disastrous upbringing during their first ten years, was ireversable.

Me I'm not sure.

whatwhat wrote:That comes down to whtehter or not you believe the damage that was done in their quite obviously disastrous upbringing during their first ten years, was ireversable.

Me I'm not sure.

Clearly it was. Three people are effectively dead. The toddler and the lives of the two vermin.

Frazzled wrote:I think the whole line of thought is irrelevant. They tortured a baby to death. They are mentally deranged at best, Satan's spawn at worst. Under no case should they be let out into society ever again. They will never be anything by a cancer in society. You put rabid dogs down. Works in this circumstance.

Let's be clear: are you advocating child execution here?

Albatross wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I think the whole line of thought is irrelevant. They tortured a baby to death. They are mentally deranged at best, Satan's spawn at worst. Under no case should they be let out into society ever again. They will never be anything by a cancer in society. You put rabid dogs down. Works in this circumstance.

Let's be clear: are you advocating child execution here?

Nope.

whatwhat wrote:@kanluwen, yes. All of those deserve blame. More blame than I believe you can put on a ten year old.

Grasping at straws much?
While yes, there is a small measure of blame that can be attributed to the community and outside socializing factors. The fact is, however, that socialization is what you get from it.

Like I said earlier, the fact that the kids tried to cover it up by leaving the body on the train tracks to have the evidence dismembered and weighed the head down to explicitly prevent the toddler from potentially removing himself from the situation(although he was already dead) I'd say that tells me they damned well knew the general consequences(punishment) of what they were doing.

That's all that is really needed in cases with minors and the mentally ill. They need to understand that there will be punishment for their actions.

Manchu wrote:My excuse is Christianity.

Bingo!

Kanluwen wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Of course they knew it would kill him. Im saying they didn't think of the consequences of killing him.

What other bloody consequences could there be? I'm sure they'd been punished for something beforehand. What possibility makes killing another human being remotely acceptable?


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Jazz is for Losers wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

I really don't get why people seem to have this sympathy for the two.

Which people would they be?

Saying this as a generalization. The fact that there was postings in regards to the fact that one of the two is back in prison for fights started at his workplace that were amounting to "He's already paid his due for a stupid mistake as a child" is sickening.

Can you quote them please? I think I must have missed them.

No, I can't quote them. I've read something like 15-16 different British newspaper's websites today to see what exactly he did to get hauled back into prison.

Part of the point of this saga is we don't know what he did "today" to get hauled back into prison.

If it was a serious offence..well.. he had his chances and he, now, knew the risks.

I'm somewhat bemused, although sadly not surprised, that there's people on here, apparently, seriously advocating treating 10 year old children -- from disfunctional ( to say the least) homes, one of whom can, at best, be described, as ... "slow".. if not borderline autistic.. as... I dunno... rabid animals.

BUt who cares about that eh ? ROAR FOR TABLOID BLOODLUST !

Excactly how would they be able to be positive members of society at all? They've been in prison. They killed a kid horribly. There's something seriously messed up in their heads. Protect society from them its the most humane thing for the people in society they are going to harm otherwise.

After reading Black Lands, I have really started thinking about child murder, phedophiles and the affect it all has on the family of the victims. Of course I knew all those things were wrong and digusting before but It's made me think child murderers and pedophiles should never, ever be let out of prison. They commited an absolutely horrible crime and they should rot for the rest of their life because of it.

Those kids knew what they were doing was wrong, they tried to cover it up. They didn't show any remorse at the trial, you're saying you want people who don't show remorse over brutally beating a two year old child to death, out of prison, released back into society!

reds8n wrote:Part of the point of this saga is we don't know what he did "today" to get hauled back into prison.

If it was a serious offence..well.. he had his chances and he, now, knew the risks.

I'm somewhat bemused, although sadly not surprised, that there's people on here, apparently, seriously advocating treating 10 year old children -- from disfunctional ( to say the least) homes, one of whom can, at best, be described, as ... "slow".. if not borderline autistic.. as... I dunno... rabid animals.

BUt who cares about that eh ? ROAR FOR TABLOID BLOODLUST !

Kay?

Part of the reasons for their release was that "they showed marked improvement and the ability to conform to norms within the enclosed setting of a violent offender youth reformatory".

That kind of reasoning is idiotic. That kind of reasoning is why I think Britain has one of the most ridiculous reintroduction programs for violent offenders I've ever seen.

whatwhat wrote:@kanluwen, yes. All of those deserve blame. More blame than I believe you can put on a ten year old.

This is a huge problem that keeps getting bigger in society today. Someone commits a violent crime and we immediately try to find someone to blame for the murderers mental state. We point the finger at someone who missed the warning signs, someone who didn't listen to the threats, police who interviewed the killer for some pittance of a crime and let him go. Then we move on to who we can sue for the problem.

Did you know that after 9/11, a lawyer who was preparing a suit against the airlines actually said "We don't want to put a price on life. But if we had to, $50,000,000 would be about right." We whine and moan about how airport security failed, this person and that person failed, then we whine and cry more when they want to put in full body scanners at the airport.

Ten year old kids are odd, they say weird things, all of them do at one time or another. It's not the schools fault, its not the community's fault. If anyone has any fault, it's the parents. But even then, these kids thought this was OK. Basic morals (ie, KILLING IS BAD) is ingrained in everyone and it can't be taken by video games, TV, or books.

Hilariously reactionary flailing genetic deficiency. That's all I can think of now when I skim dakka OT. Not directed at anyone in particular, so as not to cause offence, but the whole board reeks of it, and I'll take my permanent leave if that's ok.

Frazzled wrote:Excactly how would they be able to be positive members of society at all? They've been in prison. They killed a kid horribly. There's something seriously messed up in their heads.

How? By not killing anyone else, or committing any other crimes. I would have thought that would have been a fairly obvious notion.

Frazzled wrote:
Protect society from them its the most humane thing for the people in society they are going to harm otherwise.

Yes, its nice and reassuring to distort notions of probability into those of certainty. I'm sure it makes your thought process markedly easier.

Frazzled wrote:

Albatross wrote:

Frazzled wrote:I think the whole line of thought is irrelevant. They tortured a baby to death. They are mentally deranged at best, Satan's spawn at worst. Under no case should they be let out into society ever again. They will never be anything by a cancer in society. You put rabid dogs down. Works in this circumstance.

Let's be clear: are you advocating child execution here?

Nope.

But they were kids when they were convicted - unless you think they should be retried as adults for crimes they committed when children? Aren't you a lawyer? I'm not seeing 'defence attourney' in your future somehow!

'Yeronner, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I would like to conclude by recommending that my client be put down like a rabid dog. The defence rests. Taco bell anyone? I'm buying.'


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JEB_Stuart wrote:

Manchu wrote:My excuse is Christianity.

Bingo!

Your excuse is Bingo?


@Kanluwen - I think he was involved in a fracas at his workplace.

Yeah, Alb, that's what the general consensus of news articles seemed to suggest. I just don't think he should have been let out into the general population again.

@Kanluwen - It's a tricky one. I actually believe in the Death Penalty for cases such as this (where the perpetrators are adults), however the defendants were kids. Don't quote me on this, but I don't think it's legally possible for a minor to even be imprisoned for life - they got the maximum sentence possible. The Government would have to intervene (which they did in an attempt to lengthen the boys sentences - they were criticised for it in certain quarters, iirc) and change the law, allowing kids to be locked away for life. That throws up a load of questions just on its own.
But an adult who murders a child should be taken to a place of execution and hung by the neck until dead.

Personally i think that anyone who kills a child directly should be publicly executed, yes even minors.