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So presumably you would enjoy watching a child be executed?


That's... normal.

I wouldnt enjoy it no, the public aspect serves to terrify those who are considering harming children and to prevent such an action.

So we're harming children as a warning to children who might be considering harming children, because we want to demonstrate that harming children is not something to be encouraged?

Put. That. Bong. Down.

But... But...

Fine imprison them until they are 18 THEN execute them...

reds8n wrote:Part of the point of this saga is we don't know what he did "today" to get hauled back into prison.

If it was a serious offence..well.. he had his chances and he, now, knew the risks.

I'm somewhat bemused, although sadly not surprised, that there's people on here, apparently, seriously advocating treating 10 year old children -- from disfunctional ( to say the least) homes, one of whom can, at best, be described, as ... "slow".. if not borderline autistic.. as... I dunno... rabid animals.

BUt who cares about that eh ? ROAR FOR TABLOID BLOODLUST !

Venables, now 27, is alleged to have committed a serious sexual offence.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8553056.stm

Kanluwen wrote:Yes, the parents can be blamed for quite a bit of incompetence. But since we're looking for others to blame, what about the schools and the community the children lived in?

Parents aren't the only persons that directly influence your behavior.

I am SO SICK of the notion that it is a school's responsibilty to raise a child. We are there to provide an academic education. That is our job.

Now, a step on from that - many teachers, myself included, are in the job for more than just that. We are there because we want to help children become better people. One of the things that means most to me in the world is a card on my wall from a kid who was in my year group last year. This link features that kid talking about gangs and school. I've got a card up on the wall in my office thanking me for getting him through school and not letting him get dragged into all the gang gak that happens in Hackney. He was never the worst kid in the world, but he could be pretty damn bad. That card is one of my most treasured possessions because it is wat I got into teaching for. I nominated him for a "turning your life around" award that he sadly didn't get. What he did get is GCSEs, which gives him choices of what to do with his life. He may still make a bad mistake in the future, but at least he has a chance to do well, and he knows people believe in him.

But I will NOT accept criticism because some other kids in my year group committed crimes, including knife crime and drug offenses, because we do what we can, and that is all you can ask of us. We'll do our best with these kids, but I have over 180 kids in my year group. I cannot, in an environment like Hackney, keep each and every one of them on the straight and narrow, there simply are not enough hours in the day. I am now in charge of year 9 instead of year 11, and 3 years will not be enough time for me and all of my colleagues together to put right all of the things these kids have wrong in their lives. I'll do the referrals to Youth Support Agencies, I'll work with familes, I'll work with the Behaviour Teams, the Educational Psychologists and even Social Services and the Police.

But, I will not accept any portion of the blame for the gak that these kids do wrong, let alone murder.

Fifty wrote:
I am SO SICK of the notion that it is a school's responsibilty to raise a child. We are there to provide an academic education. That is our job.

Now, a step on from that - many teachers, myself included, are in the job for more than just that. We are there because we want to help children become better people. One of the things that means most to me in the world is a card on my wall from a kid who was in my year group last year. This link features that kid talking about gangs and school. I've got a card up on the wall in my office thanking me for getting him through school and not letting him get dragged into all the gang gak that happens in Hackney. He was never the worst kid in the world, but he could be pretty damn bad. That card is one of my most treasured possessions because it is wat I got into teaching for. I nominated him for a "turning your life around" award that he sadly didn't get. What he did get is GCSEs, which gives him choices of what to do with his life. He may still make a bad mistake in the future, but at least he has a chance to do well, and he knows people believe in him.

But I will NOT accept criticism because some other kids in my year group committed crimes, including knife crime and drug offenses, because we do what we can, and that is all you can ask of us. We'll do our best with these kids, but I have over 180 kids in my year group. I cannot, in an environment like Hackney, keep each and every one of them on the straight and narrow, there simply are not enough hours in the day. I am now in charge of year 9 instead of year 11, and 3 years will not be enough time for me and all of my colleagues together to put right all of the things these kids have wrong in their lives. I'll do the referrals to Youth Support Agencies, I'll work with familes, I'll work with the Behaviour Teams, the Educational Psychologists and even Social Services and the Police.

But, I will not accept any portion of the blame for the gak that these kids do wrong, let alone murder.

Sincerely agreed. Thank you for doing a good job and giving a damn about the kids you teach.

Fifty wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Yes, the parents can be blamed for quite a bit of incompetence. But since we're looking for others to blame, what about the schools and the community the children lived in?

Parents aren't the only persons that directly influence your behavior.

I am SO SICK of the notion that it is a school's responsibilty to raise a child. We are there to provide an academic education. That is our job.

Now, a step on from that - many teachers, myself included, are in the job for more than just that. We are there because we want to help children become better people. One of the things that means most to me in the world is a card on my wall from a kid who was in my year group last year. This link features that kid talking about gangs and school. I've got a card up on the wall in my office thanking me for getting him through school and not letting him get dragged into all the gang gak that happens in Hackney. He was never the worst kid in the world, but he could be pretty damn bad. That card is one of my most treasured possessions because it is wat I got into teaching for. I nominated him for a "turning your life around" award that he sadly didn't get. What he did get is GCSEs, which gives him choices of what to do with his life. He may still make a bad mistake in the future, but at least he has a chance to do well, and he knows people believe in him.

But I will NOT accept criticism because some other kids in my year group committed crimes, including knife crime and drug offenses, because we do what we can, and that is all you can ask of us. We'll do our best with these kids, but I have over 180 kids in my year group. I cannot, in an environment like Hackney, keep each and every one of them on the straight and narrow, there simply are not enough hours in the day. I am now in charge of year 9 instead of year 11, and 3 years will not be enough time for me and all of my colleagues together to put right all of the things these kids have wrong in their lives. I'll do the referrals to Youth Support Agencies, I'll work with familes, I'll work with the Behaviour Teams, the Educational Psychologists and even Social Services and the Police.

But, I will not accept any portion of the blame for the gak that these kids do wrong, let alone murder.

I agree with your points. Although to be fair Kanluwen could be refering to the students and social system in the school rather than what they are being taught by the teachers.

Kanluwen wrote:

whatwhat wrote:@kanluwen, yes. All of those deserve blame. More blame than I believe you can put on a ten year old.

Grasping at straws much?

Grasping at straws? Come again. I was talking about their upbringing, all those things you mention are part of their upbringing.

Last time I cried wasnt too long ago. I watched a show about this little boy that was beaten by his step father so much that he went blind, and was partially paralyzed and the list just went on. The guy would just throw this boy up to the ceiling and laugh as he bounced off the floor and such. He was only 2, and his mother wouldnt do anything about it, and by the time the real father found out (I guess he left because he didnt want the responsibility of raising a child before it was born) the boy died from all his injuries. It was so sad, I wanted to murder the guy and the boys mom I was so pist though.
I get that way now since I have kids. Anything that has to do with harm towards children just strike a nerve with me. Those kinds of stories just tare me up

Well, there is a fair point there, and I hope Kanluwen is referring to the "system", which does indeed make it difficult for us to support children. If he was, I apologise.

I become quite emotional about issues like this, as I hate to see teachers, social workers, etc... get blamed for "failing" children.

I will be happy to criticise social workers who failed to properly intervene some cases, where you read about social workers allowing themelves to be fobbed off without even seeing the children they are supposed to be investigating, but more often it is, in my opinion, becase people like teachers and social workers are under-resourced, over-worked and simply have too many cases to be reasonably expected to do a perfect job in every single one.

There is not enough money in either education or social work, and I blame every single person who complains about their taxes as not being willing to do what is necessary to look after children.

I am 100% against the modern phenomena of children being put upon a pedestal and entire cultures being altered to revolve around them (example; No woman, I will not stand on the train to let your lazy child sit down. I had my knee rebuilt six years ago, and even if I hadn't, it still won't hurt your precious child to stand up. They are young, not disabled!) but we do need to give children a world in which they are protected and have the opportunity to grow and develop in a healthy way.

Fifty wrote:Well, there is a fair point there, and I hope Kanluwen is referring to the "system", which does indeed make it difficult for us to support children. If he was, I apologise.

I become quite emotional about issues like this, as I hate to see teachers, social workers, etc... get blamed for "failing" children.

I will be happy to criticise social workers who failed to properly intervene some cases, where you read about social workers allowing themelves to be fobbed off without even seeing the children they are supposed to be investigating, but more often it is, in my opinion, becase people like teachers and social workers are under-resourced, over-worked and simply have too many cases to be reasonably expected to do a perfect job in every single one.

There is not enough money in either education or social work, and I blame every single person who complains about their taxes as not being willing to do what is necessary to look after children.

I am 100% against the modern phenomena of children being put upon a pedestal and entire cultures being altered to revolve around them (example; No woman, I will not stand on the train to let your lazy child sit down. I had my knee rebuilt six years ago, and even if I hadn't, it still won't hurt your precious child to stand up. They are young, not disabled!) but we do need to give children a world in which they are protected and have the opportunity to grow and develop in a healthy way.

I was being sarcastic, actually. In this day and age more and more people are looking for ways to pin blame on everyone but themselves or their precious child.

The fear is ostracism for failure.

I dont wish to sound like a bastard or anything... although granted i am rather cold hearted, but dont you think this really isnt that big a deal?

I think that a ten year old murdering a child is less vile than a 30 year old murdering a child frankly. Your brain isnt fully developed as a boy, and whilst i have a loathing for the criminals in this case due to some sort of natural emotional response, I dont think that this story is such a big deal considering some of the gak that goes on these days.

Some dirty religious zealots murdering thousands of innocent civilians in cold blood is much worse than some misguided 10 year old with a fethed up childhood killing another kid if you ask me....

A report in the Sunday Mirror claims Venables was returned to jail "on suspicion of child porn offences".


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8553634.stm

In a coldly logical way, mattyrm, you are certainly right. A 30 year old with supposely fully functional an developed powers of reasoning, understanding and empathy, should be even less likely to commit a crime.

The reason that this stirs up people's emotions is the myth of children being "innocent", which they are not, they are simply not fuly developed. Normally, their various aspects of incomplete development "complement" each other in such a way as to create a picture of innocence. In the case of Venables and Thomson, I would assume that the various aspects of their personalities became overdeveloped in some areas, and underdeveloped in others, leading to the terible things they did.

Now, that is just my interpretation of things, not some scholarly study, but it has some grounding in facts. (Which makes it potentially more dangerous, if you just buy in without critical thinking.)

Sorry for joining this too late......

But I just read that Wikipedia article and dont know what to say.....they killed that poor baby and now walk the streets of Britain....

But I will say this the justice system continues to fail families up and down the country victims are second handed to Labours obsession with rehabilitating people that really should be ushered away and forgotten about....

Soham and other murders still fail to show us the fundamental flaw in justice as a whole under a leinient government such as the buffoons that run our country now...

No wonder I have no pride in my nation when I read things no brainers like the one Jack Straw perpertrated with those two b**tards.

I have brought this story back because of recent developments.

Jon Venables alleged crimes could not revealed, however following a press appeal this ruling is overturned and as of today we can now know what Venables is up for: He has been accused of downloading indecent images of children, and file sharing a number of those images.
So he is into child porn. Time to take the gloves off I think.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10370920.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jon-venables-charged-with-child-porn-offences-2006813.html

Albatross wrote:As requested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger

It makes for extremely unpleasant reading.

Oh wow. I actually remember that. I'm the same age than those bastards. At the time there was a tv show in the Spanish public network where they used to try to find missing people. This was quite heavily covered by the media. At least by the standards of that time. Today it would have been still worse, Spanish press has lost all the respect for anything.

On the topic, I don't remember exactly, but I cry sometimes with movies so... probably not much ago

So sicko who murdered a child when he was ten also likes child porn?

Please say he's getting life...

Doubtless as a young offender, he was housed with others already on that path, victims of child abuse themselves who went on to molest others and that growing up in the institutions he did, it has ingrained further unwholesome behaviours onto an already deeply disturbed individual.

We need to keep that one locked away for ever, it's corrupted past any rehabilitation.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:We need to keep that one locked away for ever, it's corrupted past any rehabilitation.

This.

As for the case itself; I usually just never read into these things, they make me sick and I would prefer not to know. There are lots of horrible people out there, the media shouldn't focus on them. It probably gives some of them some grim satisfaction. As above, we should just lock them up and forget about them. Gloss it over, keep smiling!

The great falling over of the law with regards certain criminals, and by that I refer to the sexual offenders, child abusers, serial murderers etc, is that punishment and reform don't fething work. These are a different species to the petty thief or money launderer or GBH due to being drunk on a Saturday night type.

Those, especially the sexual offenders and sadistic criminals, are hardwired incorrectly, they can't be 'punished' by a period of time in captivity and then having 'learnt a lesson' be released. They cannot change their abhorrent natures, all they can do is attempt to suppress them and usually fail. How many of those murders of children or things like that awful attack on the mother in front of her child in the park were committed by previous offenders, released back into the community.

They must remain incarcerated permanently, secured away from society whose rules they cannot, by their nature, conform to.

I agree with humanity being a rough place right now. And it's not just teen angst. I'm a Dad. And personally, I think it'll be a hard road for my progeny to walk. Do I regret it?not for a moment.

However, the world has gone darker. You can cite any number of positive or negative instances in this world, but what positive ones stick out most? Not very many, personally. These two guys getting out of jail is a crime in and of itself.

I can completely see why youth in the world would be depressed. Look at what they're going to inherit. The gulf is a huge oil slick now. Were still in two wars. This country is still divided by how much the one percent make while the rest of us scrabble for the crumbs. TV is dumbing the entire population. It's rough out there, so I don't fault them for feeling that way.