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Why don't you just do what one of the first guys told you and use plasma gun veterans? They're really good and when you use 'bring it down' it turns trygons and mawlocs into slag. In one game a good nid player deepstrike both a trygon and a mawloc at me in the same turn and after my next turn they were both dead. One turn of shooting killed both of them and i only lost like 5 guardsmen and some rockets from the mawloc tunneling up. Only about 2 squads on my left flank were done shooting before the trygon bit it. Most exaggerated monstrous creatures ever. If you need to get them closer to some monstrous creatures use a valkyrie, chimera, or vendetta.

LunaHound wrote:What is so good about exterminator turret Hydras cant do better and cheaper?

Not much, other than being able to stay on the move and still fire 4 autocannon shots and one other weapon. But yes, Hydras have amazing range, are dirt cheap, put out a ton of firepower, and have that anti-flat out rule for icing.

Thatguyoverthere wrote:I'd recommend a Leman Russ Punisher with HB sponsors and Pask.

Please ignore this statement, as the poster is obviously delirious. If anyone ever recommends the Punisher for any reason or purpose, it is safe to assume they've have little to no experience with IG, whether running them or playing against them.

And yes, plasma guns are always a solution. If it's deep striking Mawlocs or Trygons that are hassling you, consider one of my favorite units: Daemonhunter Inquisitor w/ 2x mystics, 3x plasma warriors. They are essentially veteran guardsmen that get plasmaguns for 5 points less and get targetters as a bonus. Watch them melt the bugs before they even have a chance to orient themselves. It's a pretty sight.

Lascannon spam is the way to beat tanks and MCs

Ratling Snipers for MC's. Medusa for tanks, your choice whether Bastion-Breacher Shells or not, I wouldn't though. Because you then are better against infantry, plus you get 2 dice for armour penetration and pick the highest because it is ordnance.

Vets or a CCS fully loaded up with plasma. Order them to 'Bring it Down' and watch those MCs topple. The ability to re-roll those '1s' makes plasma so tasty in Guard forces. I've test-rolled this a fair few times and always get, on average, 5-6 wounds which is more than enough to kill even the Swarmlord.

I personally run a CCS w/ 4 plasmaguns and 2 Vets w/ 3 meltaguns all in Chimeras. The only disadvantage is that to order the Vets they need to disembark, so you best make sure that MC dies!

Vendettas are the best long-range anti-tank units Guard can field. Turbo-boost scout move, and then annihilate side armor with those 3 TL lascannons. I've got two of those too!

L. Wrex

Medusa is not a great piece of artillery, since it always has to fire directly. It's vulnerable enough that you pretty much have to buy it an enclosed crew compartment, at which point you may as well just buy a Demolisher. The extra 12" of range do not compensate for the loss of 2 armor in the front, and 3 on the sides.

I have just assembled a demolisher ,
with the range been so short , do you think i made the right choice of giving it plasma cannon sponsons?

Sponsons on a demolisher are probably the most debatable.

On one hand, plasma matches the main gun's AP2, but on the other hand the demolisher will be moving often because of the range issue.

It depends on how your opponent moves his units, really.

But really if you don't like it, you could always just stick an Executioner turret on instead.

Vendettas with 3 TL Las cannons Str 9 AP 2 with 48 range are hands down the best unit versus monsterous creatures of all types be it demon princes toughness 5 3+/5++, tyranid MCs with their toughness 6 3+, eldar wraith lords toughness 8 3+, c'tans with toughness 8 and a 4++. Vendettas have an excelent range and can turbo boast 24 to get out of dodge when the MC gets close. The big problem with Vendettas is they are huge, hard to give cover and often targeted first so you need a back up plan. Its hard to have an IG list that doesn't have 2-3 of these.

Plasma Veterans or if your run DH Inquistor allies, plasma warriors in Chimeras so you can fire out the fire points are a good back up plan. They can stay still and fire 24 and if the MC is close they can move up or back 6 and rapid fire 12 inches for double the firepower. Plasma does lose some effectiveness against the toughness 8 mcs because you wound on 5's but goes through armor unless your up against an avatar or a c'tan.

Leman Russ Executioner isn't as good versus MCs as you can't get multiple hits per shot like you can with infantry but it does the job well enough.

Melta guns are not the prefered weapon versus MCs because of their short range but can do the job in a pinch and besides you want some melta guns against land raiders.

I run 2 squads of Melta veterans and 2 squads of plasma las cannon veterans in my IG army.

Manticores are good against quite a few things but not everything. The things they are good against.
1. Hordes - D3 Strength 10 AP4 large templates really goes through the hordes fast.
2. Multiple wound toughness 4-5 units with a 4+ or worse save - Versus things like Tyranid Warriors and Nob Bikers a Manticore can wipe out the whole unit with insta kills if you roll well.
3. AV14 vehicles - with Strength 10 + ordinace roll 2 d6 and take the highest for penetration gives you a good chance to get a penetrating hit and most av14 vehicles like land raiders or battle wagons are big enough that you have a decent chance of hitting even with a small scatter.

I run my LRD with plasma sponsons and hull LC - I like the additional range and firepower. It's probably not the ideal choice for anti-MC, (probably why no recommendations for it in this thread), but it gets the job done.

Really terminus, did you have to steal my Avatar? I've sent you a PM, please read it.

Grimaldi wrote:

I don't know why don_mondo thinks vendettas are so vulnerable. They are a high priority target, certainly, but against nids, which have mostly short-ranged weapons, you should be pretty safe. Use the scout move to turbo-boost far away from any big guns they have, then keep drifting 6" away every turn while using your range.

Ummm, cause they are? How would your suggested tactic work against any army with decent ranged anti-tank. I've faced the 9 Valk/Vendetta army. Six died on turn 1, even with him going first................. It was a short game. I've also faced the MechVets build with only a couple of Vendettas. Yeah, they both died turn 1, the Hydras died turn 2. Meanwhile my AV 14 Leman Russ variants all survived.

don_mondo wrote:

Grimaldi wrote:

I don't know why don_mondo thinks vendettas are so vulnerable. They are a high priority target, certainly, but against nids, which have mostly short-ranged weapons, you should be pretty safe. Use the scout move to turbo-boost far away from any big guns they have, then keep drifting 6" away every turn while using your range.

Ummm, cause they are? How would your suggested tactic work against any army with decent ranged anti-tank. I've faced the 9 Valk/Vendetta army. Six died on turn 1, even with him going first................. It was a short game. I've also faced the MechVets build with only a couple of Vendettas. Yeah, they both died turn 1, the Hydras died turn 2. Meanwhile my AV 14 Leman Russ variants all survived.

I stand corrected. Obviously the many people who say vendettas are an excellent unit (some going so far as to say the best value in the codex or the game) are all smoking crack, and you have discovered the ultimate IG build revolving around a Pask-exterminator...

Everything else in this thread sounds good. Plasma vets/CCS in chimera is a bit iffy for me, as they can be really effective against some armies and lackluster against other. Plus, with the higher cost, trying to pick them over melta is a tough call. Blast weapons usually are too expensive for inflicting one wound, so most tanks/artillery aren't the best solution.

edit: not a big fan of the ratling option, either. Overall they won't produce that many wounds, certainly not quickly enough to help out against a tyranid MC list, and they aren't really helpful against several other army list.

stand corrected. Obviously the many people who say vendettas are an excellent unit (some going so far as to say the best value in the codex or the game) are all smoking crack, and you have discovered the ultimate IG build revolving around a Pask-exterminator...

Everything else in this thread sounds good. Plasma vets/CCS in chimera is a bit iffy for me, as they can be really effective against some armies and lackluster against other. Plus, with the higher cost, trying to pick them over melta is a tough call. Blast weapons usually are too expensive for inflicting one wound, so most tanks/artillery aren't the best solution.

edit: not a big fan of the ratling option, either. Overall they won't produce that many wounds, certainly not quickly enough to help out against a tyranid MC list, and they aren't really helpful against several other army list.

Wait...you basically ruled out every option that has been discussed in this thread, except what melta-vets? And have you ever used ratlings in a game? They are pure awesome sauce, and their rending allows them to take out light vehicles as well.

Grimaldi wrote:I stand corrected. Obviously the many people who say vendettas are an excellent unit (some going so far as to say the best value in the codex or the game) are all smoking crack, and you have discovered the ultimate IG build revolving around a Pask-exterminator...

Obviously. We should be ashamed of ourselves. And check ourselves into rehab, while we're at it. Then again, maybe he plays on WFB tables exclusively. A table with proper 40K terrain has places even for a Vendetta to gain a cover save.

Everything else in this thread sounds good. Plasma vets/CCS in chimera is a bit iffy for me, as they can be really effective against some armies and lackluster against other. Plus, with the higher cost, trying to pick them over melta is a tough call. Blast weapons usually are too expensive for inflicting one wound, so most tanks/artillery aren't the best solution.

edit: not a big fan of the ratling option, either. Overall they won't produce that many wounds, certainly not quickly enough to help out against a tyranid MC list, and they aren't really helpful against several other army list.

Grimaldi wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Grimaldi wrote:

I don't know why don_mondo thinks vendettas are so vulnerable. They are a high priority target, certainly, but against nids, which have mostly short-ranged weapons, you should be pretty safe. Use the scout move to turbo-boost far away from any big guns they have, then keep drifting 6" away every turn while using your range.

Ummm, cause they are? How would your suggested tactic work against any army with decent ranged anti-tank. I've faced the 9 Valk/Vendetta army. Six died on turn 1, even with him going first................. It was a short game. I've also faced the MechVets build with only a couple of Vendettas. Yeah, they both died turn 1, the Hydras died turn 2. Meanwhile my AV 14 Leman Russ variants all survived.

I stand corrected. Obviously the many people who say vendettas are an excellent unit (some going so far as to say the best value in the codex or the game) are all smoking crack, and you have discovered the ultimate IG build revolving around a Pask-exterminator...

Everything else in this thread sounds good. Plasma vets/CCS in chimera is a bit iffy for me, as they can be really effective against some armies and lackluster against other. Plus, with the higher cost, trying to pick them over melta is a tough call. Blast weapons usually are too expensive for inflicting one wound, so most tanks/artillery aren't the best solution.

edit: not a big fan of the ratling option, either. Overall they won't produce that many wounds, certainly not quickly enough to help out against a tyranid MC list, and they aren't really helpful against several other army list.

Oooo, I'm hurt.
Well, we all have opinions. I've used the vendetta, and in certain situations, it's a very good choice. In others, it pretty much sucks. And yes, it's a cheap (points-wise) unit. But to me, it doesn't do much good if it dies on turn 1. And my Reserves dice usually suck, I've had units not show up until turn 5, even with an Astropath............... Same for the Exterminator. Good against a single Monstrous Creature. In other circumstances, it sucks. I dunno, maybe it's cause I generally build my lists for all-comers, so I'm looking at over-all usefulness instead of specific applications. Heck, in 4th I pretty much ran an all-Infantry army, so for me to endorse any sort of tank is a large switch.

That's (again, IMO) one of the best things about the IG codex. We have lots of options and multiple ways to achieve the same end. That's why I also have a melta PCS in a chimera, that's why I have a merged 30 man platoon with lascannons and another one with autocannons (and both get plasma). Either of those, with Bring It Down, also puts a hurting on MCs. As does the Executioner that's always in there, can't go wrong with 5 plasma blasts. And even the Colossus, altho it's far far better against those mass units hiding in terrain. Heck, even the Psyker Battle Squad can do it's part. To me, the key to a successful IG army is to have more than one tool for each task.

But you'll be happy to know that I agree with you re Ratlings......................

It's the rule of three. If you want to accomplish something, you need at least three things capable of doing it. The first one will get killed before it gets to make an attempt, the second will make the attempt and fail, and the third will get the job done (hopefully).

Grimaldi wrote:
Everything else in this thread sounds good. Plasma vets/CCS in chimera is a bit iffy for me, as they can be really effective against some armies and lackluster against other.

The only armies that plasma doesn't work too well against are horde forces like Orks and Tyranids, against MEQs it reigns supreme. Even if you do encounter the aforementioned horde, you aim for the biggest, nastiest unit and 'Bring it Down' (if a MC/Vehicle). Plasma also stands a reasonable chance of damaging transports upto AV12. In short, its a very versatile weapon that is cheap enough on Guard units to a) take lots of and b) not be too worried if a gunner fries himself.

If an MC or vehicle gets to within 12" you need to be able to kill it pretty quickly or it'll om nom its way through tanks and infantry alike. Plasma, at least when I've experimented with it, near enough guarantees you'll throw the requisite number of wounds on the beasties to down them. Meltas just don't have enough shots to reliably get the job done. Taken on a purely AV perspective however, I fully agree that the more melta you have the better, but a good balance does need to be struck to allow you to maximise shooting priority in any given turn.

L. Wrex

PS. Vendettas are amazing. In order to get the equivalent on a HWS you're paying 5 pts more for 3, 2W models that can be instant killed by S6 weaponry. That also need an order to be TL. At LD7. Vendettas get all this AND the ability to act as a transport AND the Fast/Skimmer rules for cheaper. Yes, they can be blown up in T1, but so can Land Raiders and any vehicle if hit by a luckly shot. To have 6 downed in one turn well...either his cover save rolling sucked or his opponent's damage rolls were awesome. Point for point Vendettas win every time.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Grimaldi wrote:
To have 6 downed in one turn well...either his cover save rolling sucked or his opponent's damage rolls were awesome. Point for point Vendettas win every time.

Naahh, the rolling was about average. There was the merged squad with three autocannons and Bring It Down. Then the merged squad with three lascannons and Bring It down. Course, I was using that Pask Exterminator, he pretty much put down a squadron all by himself. Then the other misc heavy weapons. Even the Psyker Battle Squad killed one with a ST 8 blast................ And since he only moved everything 6" so he could shoot (and failed miserably against the front armor of the Exterminator, AV 14, baby, AV 14), well, there were no cover saves. In fact, IIRC, none of the survivors were able to shoot the next turn either, so he did get a cover save on turn 2 for moving fast.But eEven with 25% terrain on the table, if you're not using large multi-story buildings, Valk/Vendettas have a real hard time getting cover saves. Course, any Guard on Guard fight is going to be brutal, I just happened to get lucky in that one. The best I can recall Valk/Vendettas have ever done against me is a squadron of Valks with the rocket pods, pretty much wiped out a platoon with all the large blast markers. Course, they died immediately afterwards, but he did come out ahead on that exchange.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
The only armies that plasma doesn't work too well against are horde forces like Orks and Tyranids, against MEQs it reigns supreme.

Orks could well be fielding models with FNP, and their vehicles are pretty light. Even if they have neither (how likely is that, really?), the plasmagun's increased range (x2), or rate of fire (also x2) compares favorably to the single shot melta that can instakill warriors.

Tyranid hordes will still have monstrous creatures. And even if all they field are wienies, two S7 shots is better than 1 S8 (see above).

I agree with don mondo that vendettas are mediocre at best for killing things. Lascannons just ain't what they used to be. But here is why vendettas are good... they are transports.

/ facepalm

This is why you take advantage of Vendetta Scouting ability, and outflank them for turn 2-3 arrival.

This ensures that Vendettas are able to get in the first blow. With the first shot, and typically on side armor.

don_mondo wrote:And my Reserves dice usually suck, I've had units not show up until turn 5

You know, I have to call BS.

This is absolutely impossible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Volkov wrote:I agree with don mondo that vendettas are mediocre at best for killing things. Lascannons just ain't what they used to be. But here is why vendettas are good... they are transports.

And I suppose you also don't get them until 5th turn every time with 3 squads with an astropath as well?

/facepalm

What, you mean your dice can't roll a 0? Cheater!

Sorry Volk, given your opinion on platoons, I cant take anything you say about IG seriously. Vendettas are excellent at ripping though non-raider vehicles, and leave big holes in MCs and many deathstar units. Along with the Manticore they will be IG's best answer to the inevitable BAAV13 spam army.

imweasel wrote:

don_mondo wrote:And my Reserves dice usually suck, I've had units not show up until turn 5

You know, I have to call BS.

This is absolutely impossible.

Normally true, and it was a bad example on my part. But we were treating a 1 as a fail even with the Astropath. I was trying to be nice to him, given the way the game was going for him. Read that as I was trouncing him quite effectively. Point being, you can't rely on units in Reserves to show up when you need them. Doesn't do a bit of good for a Reserved unit to show up after everything else has died. I play with a lot of synergy between the various units in my army. If a unit isn't there, well, something is lacking in that synergy. Understand what I'm trying to say?

I'm NOT saying don't take the Vendetta. I'm just saying that IMO there are better anti-MC units out there. Good enough?

Oh yeah, and I like my merged Platoons, they're very effective in all facets of the battle.

so obviously plasma spamming is always good, but there's one thing I'm shocked not to see so far: rough riders.

For a paltry 55 points, you put 5 or 6 S5, armor-ignoring, cover-ignoring hits on any MC, mounted on a fast delivery mechanism. That's definitely good to put at least a couple wounds on any MC, and really, how many do you need?

Of course, you could go whole hog and spend 105 points, and any MC will be turned into pudding. Yes, it takes up FS slots (but for what you get for them, I'd say it's not a bad deal), but you get the benefit of targeting three MC's every game (or three tac squads, these riders are versatile), and simply turning them into non-factors. If your opponent still has more MC's, that means they forgot to bring troops, and the entire rest of your army should be able to handle any in excess of 3 without serious problems.

Rough Riders are decent, as long as you don't bring Kamir, but they require a lot of babysitting, and have some hefty competition in the FA category.

And yes, platoons rule. I like them more than veterans.

And I suppose you also don't get them until 5th turn every time with 3 squads with an astropath as well?

/facepalm

I rarely put anything in reserve. I like my vendetta to be blasting from turn 1

Sorry Volk, given your opinion on platoons, I cant take anything you say about IG seriously. Vendettas are excellent at ripping though non-raider vehicles, and leave big holes in MCs and many deathstar units. Along with the Manticore they will be IG's best answer to the inevitable BAAV13 spam army.

The problem I have with platoons is that I cannot rely on them to kill anything. A guardsmen with lascannon has a 8% chance to kill a land raider or battlewagon. 4% if its obscured which any battlewagon is. That is 25 lascannons you need to bring. They are good at slowing the enemy down. Preventing them from getting to your artillery or tanks. If they kill something then yay! good for them, but you can't build a strategy around their lethality. If I am missing something then please by all means enlighten me. (If I run a platoon, I run creed so I make full use of orders)

Veterans on the other hand can be relied on. A veteran squad with 3 melta guns and bring it down or fire on my target, if its obscured, have a dramatically higher chance of killing AV14, and not just 14 but every vehicle and MC. Then when the squad from within the transpoirt you just blew up gets out you shoot it with your tanks, and as they like to say here rinse/repeat. Platoons you are relying on your tanks to kill the transports for you

Vendettas I like. I run one is practically every army. I said earlier I think they are the most underpriced unit in 40k. There is very little reason not to take one. I just don't think they are OMGWTFBBQ super unit that kills everything in one turn of shooting

Volkov wrote:The problem I have with platoons is that I cannot rely on them to kill anything. A guardsmen with lascannon has a 8% chance to kill a land raider or battlewagon. 4% if its obscured which any battlewagon is. That is 25 lascannons you need to bring. They are good at slowing the enemy down. Preventing them from getting to your artillery or tanks. If they kill something then yay! good for them, but you can't build a strategy around their lethality. If I am missing something then please by all means enlighten me. (If I run a platoon, I run creed so I make full use of orders)

Veterans on the other hand can be relied on. A veteran squad with 3 melta guns and bring it down or fire on my target, if its obscured, have a dramatically higher chance of killing AV14, and not just 14 but every vehicle and MC. Then when the squad from within the transpoirt you just blew up gets out you shoot it with your tanks, and as they like to say here rinse/repeat. Platoons you are relying on your tanks to kill the transports for you

Vendettas I like. I run one is practically every army. I said earlier I think they are the most underpriced unit in 40k. There is very little reason not to take one. I just don't think they are OMGWTFBBQ super unit that kills everything in one turn of shooting

Thing is, I can have the merged platoon and the Platoon Command with 4 x meltas in a single Troops choice. Remember, the PCS can't merge with the Infantry squads, and running them as a special weapon squad has always seemed to be the best use for them (to me, at least). And the PCS has the same or better odds against that AV 14 as the Vet squad. Three shots at BS 4 or four shots at BS 3. By the odds, two hits either way. Add in Bring It Down and the PCS actually has the better statistical chance of scoring three hits. So I still have the melta anti-tank unit, along with a large 30-man unit with Stubborn LD 9, four power weapons, three heavy weapons and (for me at least) three plasma guns. Maybe the three lascannons with Bring It Down do have problems against AV 14. But they can still cause a lot of damage. And yeah, Creed definitely comes in handy, especially for the 24" range on the orders. But as I've said, I'm an old-school gunline IG player from way back, so maybe this part of it is just me being old-fashioned.

terminus wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:
The only armies that plasma doesn't work too well against are horde forces like Orks and Tyranids, against MEQs it reigns supreme.

Orks could well be fielding models with FNP, and their vehicles are pretty light. Even if they have neither (how likely is that, really?), the plasmagun's increased range (x2), or rate of fire (also x2) compares favorably to the single shot melta that can instakill warriors.

Tyranid hordes will still have monstrous creatures. And even if all they field are wienies, two S7 shots is better than 1 S8 (see above).

I actually wrote about this further on in my post. It's true that, for the points value, plasma is an excellent all-rounder against the tougher beasties other armies can field.

L. Wrex


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Volkov

Platoons are useful in that they allow Guard players to field lots and lots of heavy/special weapons at very cheap prices. An AC/GL Infantry will only set you back 70-odd points, significantly lower than a tooled up Vet squad.

Yes, the BS is lower so the chances to hit are lower too, but you can include an OBSCENE amount of Infantry in a single Troops choice, all with access to the aforementioned heavy weapons, significantly increasing your chances of hitting. The huge amount of bodies you can put on the table also means you have lots of ablative wounds to keep those heavy weapons firing. Volume of shots is key when using Platoons, so take as many as you can! I also advise steering away from single shot weapons, as the liklihood of hitting just isn't worth the points hike. Use Vendettas is you want lascannons!

Platoons are effective for the cheap weaponry that they can bring to the table. No, they are not game-winners, but if ignored they can reap a bloody harvest through almost anything in an opponent's force.

@ Ailaros

Rough Riders are an excellent counter-charge unit. The issue with them is that they are a one-trick pony; once they've used their lances they are effectively useless for the rest of the game. I probably wouldn't advocate using them against MCs as they stiill need 5s/6s to wound, and will be turned to mulch for their efforts. I'd much rather use them to counter-charge some Terminators or something after they've hit my lines, as that way I can rely on their lances actually doing some damage.

L. Wrex