Wraithlord: Unstoppable killing machine?

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**Belphegor**

Wraithlords rip apart Necrons.
For 100 pts (Wraithsword) + 1 Fortune a turn, they can be almost indestructible vs. any Necron list without 2 squadrons of heavy destroyers.
- and forcing the expenditure of 330pts to mitigate 200pts of material is already putting the eldar player in a control position.
I dread seeing two of those things closing in on my lines.

**agnosto**

Meh, railguns have always taken them down for me.

**Clthomps**

Play against my Dark eldar, I will kill all three Wraithlords and all your transports turn 1.

At 1500 pts I field 17 Lances and 9 Plasma cannons.

Oh did I mention we also carry a good amount of poison.

**puma713**

Belphegor wrote:Wraithlords rip apart Necrons.
For 100 pts (Wraithsword) + 1 Fortune a turn, they can be almost indestructible vs. any Necron list without 2 squadrons of heavy destroyers.
- and forcing the expenditure of 330pts to mitigate 200pts of material is already putting the eldar player in a control position.
I dread seeing two of those things closing in on my lines.

Don't all Gauss weapons wound on 6, regardless of relative toughness?

**Razerous**

puma713 wrote:
Belphegor wrote:Wraithlords rip apart Necrons.
For 100 pts (Wraithsword) + 1 Fortune a turn, they can be almost indestructible vs. any Necron list without 2 squadrons of heavy destroyers.
- and forcing the expenditure of 330pts to mitigate 200pts of material is already putting the eldar player in a control position.
I dread seeing two of those things closing in on my lines.

Don't all Gauss weapons wound on 6, regardless of relative toughness?

Yes.. and any worthy amount of gauss related shooting should happily bring it down.

**sourclams**

Well, let's be reasonable here. Any infantry-based shooting is going to need 6s to wound. A squad of 10 warriors rapid firing is going to average about 2 wounds, and a Wraith Lord will save most of the time on a 3+.

Can Warriors/Immortals wound Wraith Lords with shooting? Yes, absolutely, but it takes a lot of shots to do it.

**imweasel**

SuperioR wrote:I play a Iyanden themed list.

I never leave home without 3 wraithlords, and guess what? Never lost a single game so far, worst game so far ended in a draw (mind you that was against lolganwing + 10 missile launchers).
And even in that game they ended up only killing 1 wraithlord.
This is a footslogging iyanden army... how can it be :O according to the interwebs my list is the sux :O

So I wouldn't say "LOL THEY ARE POO WITHOUT INVUL SAVE LOL"

They can actually be really good if you know how to play correctly with them.
Sure, they are huge and can have a hard time getting cover. But you just gotto play it correctly, which depends on what you're facing and how the terrain is placed on the table.
If you play tables without the amount of terrain recommended in the rulebook, yeah you'll get smoked by missile launchers.

And about power fists killing them fast? Hardly.... WS:4 T:8, generic MEQ with power fists needs 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound. Thats 0.25 wounds per attack in general, 4 attacks should get one wound.
I wouldn't say they crumble against fists, oh and in my list theres most of the time something to back them up, meaning if they do decide using their high power attacks on him, they'll get rended by harlequins.

You just need to know their limits and weaknesses. If you do get cover and in some way used fortune on them, they can take that 15 missile launcher in the face and laugh at it.
In all my games no ones ever managed to kill all 3.

TL;DR : They are expencive and can die easily, but if you play them right your enemy will struggle to kill all 3. Oh and footslogging wins all

Without seeing the list and point levels, I can't tell you if it is 'suxxors' or not. Getting cover saves for wraith lords in a foot slogging list will be very, very difficult at best.

The only foot slogging eldar list I ever saw do decently, was 2 x 1 farseer w/10 warlocks. Even that was not total 'foot slogging' unless you call 9 war walkers 'foot slogging'.

Without cover, a wraith lord would have died in 1 turn of shooting from those 10 ml's.

**Volkov**

Ratlings eat wraithlords for breakfast. 10 point snipers FTW!

Infiltrate so they have LOS, and bang, dead Wraithlord.

QFT. Frodo and his ruffians single handedly changed the meta-game at my LGS. Wraithlords were the staple of every eldar army until Samwise showed up and brought them down! One of the kids there was complaining that ratlings were too good because space marine scouts were only BS3. I calmly asked him if he saw any space marine scouts at the crack of Mount Doom

**ArcSoll**

Volkov wrote:
Ratlings eat wraithlords for breakfast. 10 point snipers FTW!

Infiltrate so they have LOS, and bang, dead Wraithlord.

QFT. Frodo and his ruffians single handedly changed the meta-game at my LGS. Wraithlords were the staple of every eldar army until Samwise showed up and brought them down! One of the kids there was complaining that ratlings were too good because space marine scouts were only BS3. I calmly asked him if he saw any space marine scouts at the crack of Mount Doom

Rofl!

**puma713**

Volkov wrote:
Ratlings eat wraithlords for breakfast. 10 point snipers FTW!

Infiltrate so they have LOS, and bang, dead Wraithlord.

QFT. Frodo and his ruffians single handedly changed the meta-game at my LGS. Wraithlords were the staple of every eldar army until Samwise showed up and brought them down! One of the kids there was complaining that ratlings were too good because space marine scouts were only BS3. I calmly asked him if he saw any space marine scouts at the crack of Mount Doom

Add in a PBS and a Ratling Sniper unit pays for itself tenfold as it keeps units out of the game for two turns or more.

**Wrexasaur**

Snipers in general are all quite effective against Wraithlords. Powerclaws also do the trick.

Wraithlord on the other hand, are not exactly useless units, they have their role. A 10- man squad of ratlings (they are T2/ Ld6, not exactly unbreakable at range), will average 0-2 wounds per turn. It is annoying to point expensive eldar weapons at such cheap units, but with the opportunity to shoot first, blast the crap out of the hobbits. If you have to go second, you might consider sticking your WL in reserves.

I worry a lot more about armies with large amounts of high strength weaponry. Missiles will wreck WL face, along with any other high AP weaponry. Large blast templates can make your WL a damage conduit, for the rest of your army. In other words, poor formations, make for unhappy Eldar.

Hiding WL is nigh impossible, and getting cover is just as difficult. Expect them to either soak up shots (which they actually do pretty well, 3 T8 wounds is not half bad), or die trying.

**Mr. Mayhem**

I've found that when taking them along with Wave Serpents, War Walkers, Fire Prisms and/or an Avatar it suddenly becomes a much harder choice for your opponent as to where to aim their big guns.

**Sanctjud**

Well.....

If they take War Walkers then that's a max of 2 WLs.
If they take Fire PrismS then that's only 1 WL.
If they take WW and FPs then that's 1 WL.

Anyway, it's not that hard really.
Str 7-8 go at the Wave Serpents.
Str 5-6 go at the WW.
Avatar will most likely be Fortuned, so I'll just out run it as he is no faster than infantry.
Str 8-10 (after Prisms are stun/shaken at the least) at WLs.

Target saturation is good when the units in question overlap in tersm of what is going at them, but with respect to the list of units above, it's not that hard to see where what is going.

In addition, it really depends on what the WLs are carrying as weapons.
If it's just a sword then it's on my 'ignore til I have to' list.
If it's one ranged weapon, it falls behind after stun/shaking Serpents.
If it's two ranged weapons, if alls behind after stun/shacking Fire Prisms.
Etc.

**agnosto**

Mr. Mayhem wrote:I've found that when taking them along with Wave Serpents, War Walkers, Fire Prisms and/or an Avatar it suddenly becomes a much harder choice for your opponent as to where to aim their big guns.

In a 1500 point game I've got an average of 4 railguns available (hammerhead and broadside unit with target lock) any one of which is more than capable of bringing down any tank/walker in the game. Then my crisis suits have fusion blasters and are mobile enough to get around terrain with JSJ...

All in all, Eldar is the only army I've ever had any luck against with my Tau.

**powerclaw**

The effectiveness of a unit has nothing to do with what parts of your army list are able to take it down. Any idiot can read off the high-strength guns in his army lists and sit back with a smug expression on their face. I especially enjoyed reading about the guy who bought 30 Sternguard for a cheesy list. Better hope that roughly $300 of the same 5 models doesn't get nerfed in the next edition.

To answer your question OP, the Wraithlord is very good at what it does. Its tough, draws attention, and makes for a great firing platform. It costs a little extra but it can take a wound and still shoot 2 heavy weapons. The two flamers it can take are also awesome because few people remember that the little guns on the huge model's wrists are flame templates.

You have to know the wraithlords weaknesses and know how to minimise them. Sure its hard to hide the big guys, but even if it makes the opponent move all his Hammerheads closer to get shots off the wraithlord is already forcing the opponent to react. As so many posters have clearly demonstrated, if you let them have their way your wraithlord will die quickly.

With 3 in your list you should be able to do stuff like force splitting fire, sacrifice one to get to the enemy, or even secrifice all so that the rest of your army hits home. At 140pts for a heavy-weaponed out Wraithlord your going to still have lots of other units to finish the job. Thanks for big distractions you'll actually get to shoot with Guardian Defenders or get your Banshees into combat unscathed.

**Sanctjud**

Thanks for big distractions you'll actually get to shoot with Guardian Defenders or get your Banshees into combat unscathed.

Big distractions that attract high str. weaponry. Now maybe you meant Guadians and Banshees in tranpsorts, but as it looks now... str 4-6 multiple shot weapons will most likely not be going for the WL and will go for the exposed infantry... to think otherwise would be a bit 'off' IMO.

**agnosto**

powerclaw wrote:The effectiveness of a unit has nothing to do with what parts of your army list are able to take it down. Any idiot can read off the high-strength guns in his army lists and sit back with a smug expression on their face. I especially enjoyed reading about the guy who bought 30 Sternguard for a cheesy list. Better hope that roughly $300 of the same 5 models doesn't get nerfed in the next edition.

To answer your question OP, the Wraithlord is very good at what it does. Its tough, draws attention, and makes for a great firing platform. It costs a little extra but it can take a wound and still shoot 2 heavy weapons. The two flamers it can take are also awesome because few people remember that the little guns on the huge model's wrists are flame templates.

You have to know the wraithlords weaknesses and know how to minimise them. Sure its hard to hide the big guys, but even if it makes the opponent move all his Hammerheads closer to get shots off the wraithlord is already forcing the opponent to react. As so many posters have clearly demonstrated, if you let them have their way your wraithlord will die quickly.

With 3 in your list you should be able to do stuff like force splitting fire, sacrifice one to get to the enemy, or even secrifice all so that the rest of your army hits home. At 140pts for a heavy-weaponed out Wraithlord your going to still have lots of other units to finish the job. Thanks for big distractions you'll actually get to shoot with Guardian Defenders or get your Banshees into combat unscathed.

And any idiot can have an opinion, apparently.

The OP was regarding a specific unit in an army not an overall army list or overall strategy so I fail to see your point in your first paragraph. As I stated, my personal experience playing against eldar is that my Tau do well against them and did so without throwing pejoratives about.

**powerclaw**

I know the OP wasn't asking for strategy but this is "40K Tactics". I don't see how "Well my list has 10 missle launchers!" is helpful.

In terms of splitting fire, I didn't mean Wave Serpents specifically but they are awesome. If you're only shooting at the infantry with strength 3-6 (I find S7 shots usually get thrown at Wraithlords as well since most people don't bring enough S8 and up to bear on the Wraithlords) then at 24"+ their options are pretty slim. Few lists have stuff like S6 spam or tons of heavy bolters (IG aside or Eldar themselves aside).

Your points is well made though, there is still going to have to be some other cover-hugging and stuff going on. The Wraithlords also dissuade direct assault if used correctly. This is a big boon to a footslogging list. Since Prisms are a better choice then 'Lords in Mech lists I'm going to assume its for a slogging list.

@agnosto: I'm sorry you took the pejorative personally, I meant it as a comment of the usefulness of the responses. In effect the thread looks like:

OP: "Are Wraithlords unkillable?"
Responders: "My Tau do well against Eldar."

Yes I was making assumptions about what the OP really wanted to know but if you take the thread completely at face value then the only response necessary is:

OP: "Are Wraithlords unkillable?"
Responders: "No. No they are not."

Not as interesting.

**agnosto**

@ Powerclaw,
Point taken.

As far as killing Wraithlords (or any MC-like unit). The thing that makes it seem unkillable is the high toughness and immunity to most standard troop weapons. IG lasguns don't wound it and neither would bolters.

I guess it's different from a Tau perspective because our basic troop weapons would still wound on a "6" not to mention the plethora ("would you say I have a plethora?") of high strength, low AP weapons on battlesuits.

It's the striking scorpions and banshees that scare me about eldar, not their tanks and walkers.

**powerclaw**

Plethora is a good way of putting it agnosto. Any army that can take S6 missle pods, plasma that doesn't overheat, multiple long-ranged S10 AP1, and basic guns with S5 is going to be well equiped to handle stuff like Wraithlords and other MC's (I'm looking at you Tyranids).

I guess the main point is that you have to be able to use your Wraithlord flexibly. Walking up the middle or hugging cover each have their advantages against various armies. Also, if you're outmatched to begin with the wraithlord is only going to help so much.

**agnosto**

powerclaw wrote:Plethora is a good way of putting it agnosto. Any army that can take S6 missle pods, plasma that doesn't overheat, multiple long-ranged S10 AP1, and basic guns with S5 is going to be well equiped to handle stuff like Wraithlords and other MC's (I'm looking at you Tyranids).

I guess the main point is that you have to be able to use your Wraithlord flexibly. Walking up the middle or hugging cover each have their advantages against various armies. Also, if you're outmatched to begin with the wraithlord is only going to help so much.

Missed the 3 Amigoes reference didn't you?
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mTUmczVdik

**Nurglitch**

Aren't Missile Pods basically Autocannons?

**Sanctjud**

Yes, but with less range and assault type.
Not an ideal weapon vs. WL's, but it's doable if desperate and lucky at the same time.

**imweasel**

Mr. Mayhem wrote:I've found that when taking them along with Wave Serpents, War Walkers, Fire Prisms and/or an Avatar it suddenly becomes a much harder choice for your opponent as to where to aim their big guns.

If you are taking war walkers and fire prisms, you don't have much room for wraith lords.

**Ringarin**

Half of the people I know don't even know what the other person can take for wargear. Well, sometimes I fall prey to that. But that being said a friend is working on an Eldar army and wants to include lots of wraithlords. Whta's the best way for him to employ them? Like weapon choices and such?

**SuperioR**

Ringarin wrote:Half of the people I know don't even know what the other person can take for wargear. Well, sometimes I fall prey to that. But that being said a friend is working on an Eldar army and wants to include lots of wraithlords. Whta's the best way for him to employ them? Like weapon choices and such?

Really depends on game size but:

Wraithlord - Sword (basically really small games where you'll want T:8 to cause them problems)
Wraithlord - Eldar Missile Launcher or Brightlance (if your tight on points, but need something high str)
Wraithlord - Eldar Missile Launcher and Brightlance (best option for footslogging Eldar as its the best anti armour setup)

I sometimes take one star cannon just for more ap 2 shots, but thats not really point effective.

**willydstyle**

All of the bashing on wraithlords that I have done in this thread is based on my experience using 3 of them. The difference being that I realize that using 3 wraithlords actually makes my army weaker compared to other HS choices.

However, the builds of wraithlord that I like the best are as follows:

All builds have 2x flamers
Bright Lance/Wraithsword. This guy can scare many HQs in CC, but also do something at range so he's capable of being an effective counter-attack unit.

EML/Scatter laser: this guy is the best at killing rhinos. If you're playing Eldar, you *have* to kill rhinos.

EML/Bright Lance: this guy gives you a chance against AV12+. Very expensive, but can be important.

**Phish Skills**

Stealer/Warriors(/w rending claws) with toxin sacs. 4+ wounds and rending, no wraithlords are no unstoppable but do draw alot of fire away

**agnosto**

Phish Skills wrote:Stealer/Warriors(/w rending claws) with toxin sacs. 4+ wounds and rending, no wraithlords are no unstoppable but do draw alot of fire away

That's a good point, they do serve an ancillary purpose in that they draw a great deal of fire, not unlike a greater daemon or a land raider.

**willydstyle**

The problem being that they only "draw fire" if your opponent has weapons that kill them. If your opponent is going to have a hard time killing them, the wraithlords will often get ignored in favor of targets that are more dangerous and easier to kill.

There's no value in a unit "drawing fire" if it's just going to die to it. For example, against a guard player with 9 TL lascannon in his army (not even slightly hard to accomplish), he's very likely to kill one wraithlord and maim another with a single turn's shooting. That's not a winning proposition for your wraithlords, especially if you're relying on them for your anti-tank.